Concordance of the Legionfall..see you next expansion...

[Zyky]

yeah i reckon it will, but we dont know maybe they scaled it better this time.

You're putting a lot of faith in a company that over the last 3 expansions hasn't delivered on a single thing they've promised. The bottom line is that this system is trash and the fact that they view artifact power grinds as content is bullshit design. Putting a 50 point talent at the end of a progression weapon and then being like "here's your content for the next 6 months while you attempt at progressing with our overtuned raids!" that poor design, that's a horrible business model, and honestly its outright disgusting that the higher ups are so on board with it.

[Deleted]

What ultimately kills bosses is a mix out of all these factors, gear, artifacts, skill, communication, roster composition, racials, food buffs, what-have-you and pointing towards a Mythic first race (one lockout, so very little gear progression) and saying people needed capped artifacts is incredible disingenious.

What I don't understand is, from where comes this idea that all Mythic bosses should be tuned so that they are juuuuuuuust killable week 1? Why is this the design goal? It's sad to see that every new tier is 'cleared' week 1.

Well of course it is a mixture and as it is you can indeed say it is tuned around every part of that mixture. And as you will not see any guild without a 54 trait roster kill Gul´dan mythic in the forseeable future i don´t think it´s disingenious to do so.

And yes, it´s no rule that a raid tier has to last 1-2 weeks for top end guilds, I just think this has been proven to be the most optimal difficulty. Anything shorter has been considered a joke from the community and if it would last even longer, most casual to semi-hardcore guilds would never get to see the last 3 bosses. Obviously, most people weren´t too happy with how long Sunwell etc. lasted, as they wouldn´t have changed it otherwise

[SirBeef]

i love it something to work for =), all the lazy bstards can go play minecraft

Or come here to bitch and complain they are forced to do something.

[Flurryfang]

guilds wont - pugs absolutely will - so unless someone is raiding with guild no raiding for them - shit game design is shit.

- - - Updated - - -



sadly lately "placeholder" numbrs means - its numebrs we want lets throw the idea let playerbase simm it , whine about it and well see if there is any need to change it.

either way i think its horible idea - it was fun as something new but pushing it in later patches is just retarded.

its not "content" its stupid korean style grind.

First of all, not all pugs does that. Have been in very few NH pugs, where they looked at my artifact lvl or asked after it. More about item lvl. Also, pugs can put up insane and unreal demands. Just because you see 2-3 pugs asking for 895 + max artifact, does not mean it reflects the majority of pugs. You could also just make your own and put up reasonable demands.

[Flurryfang]

The community you are talking about already exists. It's normal guilds that start out at HC, and slowly progress through Mythic. Not going anywhere for now.

About "working yourself to death" part - that's the point. Some people raided mythic hardcore, and only had to sacrifice a few days each half a year to compete. Blizzard decided to throw a crapton of grinds like Artifact or Legendary grinds into the game, and in turn it pushed people who just had to be skilled to be the best into farm territory. And thus, the "hardcore" community is dying, even tho it actually helps WoW - it's the best players, the "racers" who are looked up to, who attract people to Twitch, not guilds stuck at Aluriel or something for a month.

I am aware, that there is a community like that, i am part of that myself. I am just hoping, that the current hardcore mythic community well to a bit more towards this mentality for their own sake.

The game changes, it always does, but the player have to change with it. While you could keep doing 100% of the availible content back in wrath or TBC, the game have kept adding content for the last several years and peoples attitude to do all availible content have not changed since then. That is the problem. If Blizzard always have to keep an eye out for the max content 1 person can do everyday, then they will be forever limited in the content they can give. This would not be a problem if all players played all the content, but people are very selective and want to do specific things, so it is quite hard to provide enough content for both the Mythic+ player and the PvP player, when you have some players who do both to the extreme.

I understand that we need dedicated people, who put alot of time and energi into the game, and also that these hardcore players should be able to find time to do things other then raiding, but currently that is hard to give them. Blizzard is trying to give more and more content to the average player and the mythic raider suffers for that, not because the content harms them, but because they can't control themselfs in a world, where there is alot of potential content.

All in all there are some things Blizzard can do, but AP has to keep going. They can't just stop the AP grind, becasue it is one of the main reward systems in the game and it is currently bringing alot of good with it in the normal/heroic community. Legendaries could be opened up alot more, but it is not a main thing. Many people are at max legendaries equipped and while some items would increase dps, it is not something holding people back from being able to do raiding. Also, you can still be a guy people look up to and who create great content, while you are stuck on Aluriel. You don't have to kill the entire tier in 8 days for people to look up to you.

[Okacz]

I am aware, that there is a community like that, i am part of that myself. I am just hoping, that the current hardcore mythic community well to a bit more towards this mentality for their own sake.

The game changes, it always does, but the player have to change with it. While you could keep doing 100% of the availible content back in wrath or TBC, the game have kept adding content for the last several years and peoples attitude to do all availible content have not changed since then. That is the problem. If Blizzard always have to keep an eye out for the max content 1 person can do everyday, then they will be forever limited in the content they can give. This would not be a problem if all players played all the content, but people are very selective and want to do specific things, so it is quite hard to provide enough content for both the Mythic+ player and the PvP player, when you have some players who do both to the extreme.

I understand that we need dedicated people, who put alot of time and energi into the game, and also that these hardcore players should be able to find time to do things other then raiding, but currently that is hard to give them. Blizzard is trying to give more and more content to the average player and the mythic raider suffers for that, not because the content harms them, but because they can't control themselfs in a world, where there is alot of potential content.

All in all there are some things Blizzard can do, but AP has to keep going. They can't just stop the AP grind, becasue it is one of the main reward systems in the game and it is currently bringing alot of good with it in the normal/heroic community. Legendaries could be opened up alot more, but it is not a main thing. Many people are at max legendaries equipped and while some items would increase dps, it is not something holding people back from being able to do raiding. Also, you can still be a guy people look up to and who create great content, while you are stuck on Aluriel. You don't have to kill the entire tier in 8 days for people to look up to you.

Actually, when I thought a bit more about the AP system in 7.2, it actually might make more sense. Being tied to a proc, costing a LOT and being infinite might just make guilds drop the requirements, and just tell the raiders to accumulate it on a steady pace when they can. In Nighthold guilds KNEW about the cap and the fact that the raid is tuned around having all traits, which was the reason of the burnout.

The issue for me is the fact that those grinds are still something any player must do, even dedicated raiders. I actually like it, playing casually - always something more to do, something to look forward to. Still, many of my friends dropped the game because of that, and not out of spite or anything. Some people only cared about raiding, and since TBC it was a simple system - you have a guild of good players or friends, set up a raid once or a few times a week and on that day, everybody jumps right into and raids.

So many people played this way and loved it, logging in only for raids, not really caring about all the other stuff. That playstyle is now gone, being "just a raider" makes you a bad player - little to no AP, no Legendaries, most likely no money for consumables, no farmed TF gear from M+. No things the raids are BALANCED around. So yeah, players who just wanted to raid basically can't play Legion. I don't know how it looks like on PvP scene, but it's most likely similar. Yeah, having something other than raid to do is what I love about Legion, but it doesn't change the fact that a whole bunch of players just got their long-lasting playstyle taken away.

[Siglius]

Actually, when I thought a bit more about the AP system in 7.2, it actually might make more sense. Being tied to a proc, costing a LOT and being infinite might just make guilds drop the requirements, and just tell the raiders to accumulate it on a steady pace when they can. In Nighthold guilds KNEW about the cap and the fact that the raid is tuned around having all traits, which was the reason of the burnout.

The issue for me is the fact that those grinds are still something any player must do, even dedicated raiders. I actually like it, playing casually - always something more to do, something to look forward to. Still, many of my friends dropped the game because of that, and not out of spite or anything. Some people only cared about raiding, and since TBC it was a simple system - you have a guild of good players or friends, set up a raid once or a few times a week and on that day, everybody jumps right into and raids.

So many people played this way and loved it, logging in only for raids, not really caring about all the other stuff. That playstyle is now gone, being "just a raider" makes you a bad player - little to no AP, no Legendaries, most likely no money for consumables, no farmed TF gear from M+. No things the raids are BALANCED around. So yeah, players who just wanted to raid basically can't play Legion. I don't know how it looks like on PvP scene, but it's most likely similar. Yeah, having something other than raid to do is what I love about Legion, but it doesn't change the fact that a whole bunch of players just got their long-lasting playstyle taken away.

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO FUCKING GETS IT! However we might have to wait for the patch to actually launch before more people realize it. And by that point the community will most likely have found something else to be outraged about.

[scottdell]

this is really pointless but at least they say its not needed for competitive raiding until someone sims the scale and everyone freaks out.

[Nosdrone]

Sounds good! Gives us something to work towards for a long time.

[Dracullus]

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO FUCKING GETS IT! However we might have to wait for the patch to actually launch before more people realize it. And by that point the community will most likely have found something else to be outraged about.

I think one thing could help a lot (and its from Diablo 3, so it may happen ;P). If new paragon are 'infinite', there is no reason for this being not only class wide, but account wide.

WoW isnt D3, so we need adjust it to MMO format. I would make it like that - you must earn whole single point on one character, you automaticaly get new trait without using forge, and progress reset on rest of your chars. Of course alts/other specs must earn all regular spec first to progress into paragon, but they keep benefits from the proc since they get artifact weapon at level 100.

[Ribesal]

not sure what xpac youre in... but my mage has over 40,000 Int currently http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...clothes/simple

the 11,800 cap is kinda w/e... the up time probably wont even be that high on the buff

yeah, i was extremely unsure how high it was, roughly 34k now for me (agility), but int classes have much more than str/agi classes. this proc should be percentage based, not a fix amount, or atleast a little bit higher for int classes...?

[Kikazz]

You're putting a lot of faith in a company that over the last 3 expansions hasn't delivered on a single thing they've promised.

Yes they have your really Naive if you think they havent Delivered on things they have promised, if that was the case wed still be stuck in Cata.

The bottom line is that this system is trash and the fact that they view artifact power grinds as content is bullshit design. Putting a 50 point talent at the end of a progression weapon and then being like "here's your content for the next 6 months while you attempt at progressing with our overtuned raids!" that poor design, that's a horrible business model, and honestly its outright disgusting that the higher ups are so on board with it.

I am Really loving the mythic raids this expansion, i think you might be one of these people who struggle to get into normals? and the higher ups are board with it.
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS OPTIONAL, you dont have to do it, its a fucking game for fuck sake. you choose what you want to do.
if you raid 10 hours a day for the first month of a tier, that isnt blizzard saying hey do this, thats your saying guys lets do this for world first.
its your choice not blizzards, so likewise people doing this then complaining that there is nothing to do or getting burnt out is in, turn their fault.

[Zyky]

I am Really loving the mythic raids this expansion, i think you might be one of these people who struggle to get into normals? and the higher ups are board with it.
EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS OPTIONAL, you dont have to do it, its a fucking game for fuck sake. you choose what you want to do.
if you raid 10 hours a day for the first month of a tier, that isnt blizzard saying hey do this, thats your saying guys lets do this for world first.
its your choice not blizzards, so likewise people doing this then complaining that there is nothing to do or getting burnt out is in, turn their fault.

I highly doubt you're raiding at a high level if you think that 54 is optional lol.

[SirCowdog]

I think one thing could help a lot (and its from Diablo 3, so it may happen ;P). If new paragon are 'infinite', there is no reason for this being not only class wide, but account wide.

WoW isnt D3, so we need adjust it to MMO format. I would make it like that - you must earn whole single point on one character, you automaticaly get new trait without using forge, and progress reset on rest of your chars. Of course alts/other specs must earn all regular spec first to progress into paragon, but they keep benefits from the proc since they get artifact weapon at level 100.

This isn't something they're ever going to do, however, as long as WoW operates on a monthly subscription. Investing time into alts is one of the primary sources of time-sinking that WoW has. And while we do have a lot of catch-up mechanics, they should not be confused with account-wide functionality. Blizzard wants you to CATCH UP to the starting point of whatever the current cutting edge progression is, then sink time into it. They do not want you to be able to easily run all the alts on your account concurrently in that content.

That's a subtle difference, but a very important one. Look at how Artifacts work with AP and that catch-up mechanic. Initially very fast, but then a gross, ridiculous time-sink after reach the breaking point of the exponential curve. Think about how much time /played would be lost if Blizzard made AP account wide instead of character and spec specific. There's no question why it's set up the way it is.

[Kikazz]

I highly doubt you're raiding at a high level if you think that 54 is optional lol.

didnt say i was top end i said i raid mythics we are currently 3/10M and stuck on krosus, would 54 traits for entire raid help yes.

can we get it without it, yes we almost have it.

re-iterates my point everything is optional.

[Zyky]

didnt say i was top end i said i raid mythics we are currently 3/10M and stuck on krosus, would 54 traits for entire raid help yes.

can we get it without it, yes we almost have it.

re-iterates my point everything is optional.

"we almost have it" means "we don't have it and need more damage" which means "we need more gear or people need to get off their lazy ass and farm AP".

[Deleted]

There are better methods to develop a character in rpg game than endless AP grind, WoW is a full time job now.

1. Need to do WQ for chest
2. Need to do random BG for AP
3. Need to win BG for AP/Quest
4. Need to run EN/TV/NH Normal and Heroics to proc leg (5 till now, 4 utility and 1 QoL)
5. Need to do Mythic+ for weekly chest
6. Need to kill all Danger, Wanted world bosses for leg proc chance.
7. Need to farm gold to survive until next raid (BS/Miner)

There is no time to enjoy the game atm. If i won't do this I'll be even more behind others, especially those with BiS legos.

Umm, and I have 2 alts yet...

Time to take a break from wow I guess?

[Schattenlied]

dont know why they dont just cap ap like they did conquest points in WoD, reasonable weekly cap that anyone can hit in a couple hours a day, that rolls over to the following weeks if you didn't do it... Put in a linear, not increasing cost per artifact point and you're done.

Lets new characters catch up quick (when they hit 110 their cap would be = to all previous weeks the expansion had been out), and no one will ever feel like they need to grind all day to cap their artifact.

[Deleted]

dont know why they dont just cap ap like they did conquest points in WoD, reasonable weekly cap that anyone can hit in a couple hours a day, that rolls over to the following weeks if you didn't do it... Put in a linear, not increasing cost per artifact point and you're done.

Lets new characters catch up quick, and no one will never feel like they need to grind all day to cap their artifact.

Why should a game be based on the behaviour of people with serious lack of control issues? If people burnout, they burnout. I mean...

[Dracullus]

This isn't something they're ever going to do, however, as long as WoW operates on a monthly subscription. Investing time into alts is one of the primary sources of time-sinking that WoW has. And while we do have a lot of catch-up mechanics, they should not be confused with account-wide functionality. Blizzard wants you to CATCH UP to the starting point of whatever the current cutting edge progression is, then sink time into it. They do not want you to be able to easily run all the alts on your account concurrently in that content.

That's a subtle difference, but a very important one. Look at how Artifacts work with AP and that catch-up mechanic. Initially very fast, but then a gross, ridiculous time-sink after reach the breaking point of the exponential curve. Think about how much time /played would be lost if Blizzard made AP account wide instead of character and spec specific. There's no question why it's set up the way it is.

Notice that I'm talking only about paragon traits - that Concordance of the Legionfall stuff. For regular traits Artifact Knowledge will be catch up mechanic, but after 75 days there will be no catch up for paragons at all. And new paragon is something that you will never finish - this is very discouraging from switching class or even spec, so there is no reason for it not being account wide.