Why Mythic shouldn't be a thing

[Nynax]

(a summary of how all these discussions go)

Argument: Mythic shouldn't be a thing because I don't like it!

Counter: Mythic should be a thing because I do like it!

[Dangg]

You seem to be misinformed, you start of your post with a wrong premise.

Mythic was renamed from Heroic and Heroic used to be Normal mode.
LFR and Normal (introduced as Flex) are the latest difficulties which were added.


I didn't bother to continue reading.

[Hctaz]

Click-baity title, but hear me out.

Mythic should have never been made in the first place. Over time like with the devaluating of epics and legendaries, raid difficulty settings have become bloated and lost meaning. So when Heroic was no longer 'Heroic' in comes Mythic to add a new super hard difficulty. Now difficulties have become overbloated and Normal is now LFR 2.0 rather than a fully legitimate difficulty.

The clearest and most intuitive solution to the problem of the difficulty bloat is to simply have Normal and Heroic again. But simply use a scalable difficulty that we've had in the past with raids like Ulduar. I would even go farther and say that Raid Keystones should be a thing, a way to make a Raid tier relevant through the whole expansion even as new content is released. It also means that suddenly the world first race is less important as the relevancy of the first clear of Mythic0 falls away and is replaced with inter guild competition over longer, healthier time frames. it's more important for guilds to go for higher numbers of difficulty and also go back to older raids to go for gear and even tier pieces that are more relevant. This also means the concept of "Tuned for 54 traits" suddenly goes away as well as the base difficulty is rather reasonable and can scale into mathematically impossible, allowing guilds to find their comfort zone for their current gear levels.

Overall this system is healthier than what we have now, which is incredibly polarizing, all or nothing, and at times utterly guild breaking.

What are you even talking about? Heroic didn't stop being heroic. The reason they added a "mythic" raid difficulty is because they introduced a new mode called "Flexible Mode" in Siege of Orgrimmar that was easier then Normal and set the ground work for WoD raiding style. When WoD came out they simply renamed everything because they wanted to increase the difficulties that could have a flexible raid size. Instead of calling it "Flexible" they named it "Normal". "Normal" became "Heroic" and "Heroic" became "Mythic". They didn't add anything harder than they had previously, they just added an easier difficulty under a different name that they chose to change due to Old Normal New Heroic becoming flexible as well.

Your idea on how "Mythic" came to be is wrong.

[Myta]

Personally I believe this system is more awful and guild breaking than the current one.

While Ulduar was praised for how it had scaling difficulty and interesting activation mechanics, it really wasn't the case - many of the hard modes were only really starting after an easy to do condition happened. The "hard mode" encounter was just one. Freya might be closest to scaling, but even Freya had a massive difference on 25 between 2 trees up and 3.
Raid Keystones fail because they don't change the encounter at all, for example Mythic Botanist is much more different than Heroic, Augur's Grand Trine is a mythic only mechanic, Elisande's orbs do a return and Gul'dan is completely different. This makes mythic raiding interesting, increasing dmg and health by 10% per keystone would be outright retarded.

10% would be nuts and very much an exaggeration I think. Assuming it will be like Mythic+ where Hyrja's lightning needs defensives, a healer CD and even pots to survive sometimes is extreme. However after a certain point mythic bosses do become over geared. And in some cases a tiny health/damage increase is enough to keep rewards competitive and the difficulty on an even keel. If you start getting one shot by mechanics that were survivable, that's probably a sign you went too far up for your group's gear level.

Your argument is assuming there is a final difficulty, that there is an end point to reach and that end point is too far extreme to be beatable. Rather than what I suggested which was a way for guilds to increase the challenge of content as the gradual increase of dps and health pools renders formerly hard bosses completely cheesable, and certain mechanics completely skipable (IE Socrethar). And gives raids scaling rewards for the continued challenge, and ensures raids stay relevant long after release, because less face it, bosses in EN don't do the comparative damage they used to back at the start of progression, and a damage/health boost is often a difference between cheesing a fight, and a challenging fight.

You seem to be misinformed, you start of your post with a wrong premise.

Mythic was renamed from Heroic and Heroic used to be Normal mode.
LFR and Normal (introduced as Flex) are the latest difficulties which were added.


I didn't bother to continue reading.

It shows.

[ufta]

I'm actually intrigued by the concept of mythic keystone raids. Mythic+ is, imo, the single best thing about Legion.
That being said, let me toss this nugget out there:
Back when their was only ONE raid difficulty...that one difficulty was tuned closer to what we currently call mythic moreso than any of the other difficulties.
In late vanilla, if you looked at the raid progression on a typical server....it looked a lot like mythic progression looks now. My guild took SIX MONTHS to progress through Blackwing Lair, and we ended up being one of only 3 horde guilds on the server to kill *A* boss in the original Naxxramas before Burning Crusade was released.
So the people we now refer to as "mythic raiders".....back in vanilla, those people were called "raiders".

Problem was, there weren't many of them. Just like mythic raiders today only comprise a small % of the total playerbase.
Blizz didn't like spending all the time/effort on raid content that only a few were seeing, so they have spent the last decade dumbing down the content more and more to the point where now you can even beat it in a pug with zero strategy and half the raid having no clue how the fight even works.

And don't miss this point: THIS IS HOW BLIZZARD WANTS IT TO BE. They have spent a dozen years cultivating raid content to this point. They WANT terribads to be able to pug raids and see the inside of these raid instances. Thankfully, they also want skilled players to be able to progress through actual challenging group content. Hence, mythic.

Obviously, there's a huge gap between LFR and mythic. Blizz has chosen to fill this gap with 2 additional difficulty levels. Certainly you could argue that there should be only 1....but there has to be AT LEAST 1. Blizz has shown over time that they would not go to a system where the only 2 options were chimpanzee-level LFR pugging, and the only organized raid difficulty being mythic. That would drive people away from raiding, which goes counter to Blizz's goals for the game.

[Hctaz]

Also, Blizzard does NOT balance around the very top guilds. If they did, they would most likely not get it down so quickly, but Blizzard has to balance for everyone, so the really good and dedicated people get it down faster.

FINALLY lol somebody gets it. They haven't balanced to top end guilds in a loooong time. Since Ulduar probably. I don't even remember Heroic LK being really that hard. I think Yogg 0 lights was the last boss that was a true race that took a long ass time to down.

People fail to look back and realize that the original Naxx 40 man in Vanilla was cleared by a total of 23 guilds. That was tuned for the hardest of the hardcore to complete and nobody else. TBC they pulled it back a little bit but even looking at Sunwell you can tell that they had some bosses tuned for those who put in maximum effort and were very skilled. Cata and onwards had raids on the hardest difficulty being cleared in 3 weeks or less. That just simply didn't happen before.

- - - Updated - - -

It shows.

Don't be an ass to this dude for not reading your whole post. There is no point to continue reading when your entire premise is wrong. You assume that mythic is a harder difficulty that was added because heroic was not hard enough. That is false. Heroic was just renamed Mythic when they introduced flex mode and changed that difficulty name to normal. They simply added an easier difficulty and mythic is just as hard as heroic was in the past.

[Myta]

(a summary of how all these discussions go)

Argument: Mythic shouldn't be a thing because I don't like it!

Counter: Mythic should be a thing because I do like it!

You're assuming my argument is that I dislike Mythic difficulty, instead of dislike the current Mythic system which has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with artificial numbers gating behind AP, ensuring that it's not the best players that get raid slots but the players who spent the most time farming (or exploited the most, because lets face it, no one lost their AP for doing that).

Again what people ignore about my argument is that Mythic used to be purely about skill, gear through WoD didn't matter, playing your class did. I could get an alt raid-ready in about a day if I were to switch mains. It meant that the people most progressed in Mythic were the more skilled players. This is not the case right now, as currently you have to meet a purely arbitrary numbers gate to even be able to attempt bosses past Trilliax.

How well you play your class ceases to be a factor when your fireball simply does half the damage of your friend who is not as good at casting fireballs as you, but spent a month doing Maw boost groups.

Don't be an ass to this dude for not reading your whole post. There is no point to continue reading when your entire premise is wrong. You assume that mythic is a harder difficulty that was added because heroic was not hard enough.

You are showing that you did not read my post either. People's hackles are going up and are responding to imagined pretend arguments I never made, instead of responding to arguments I actually made. It would be nice to discuss points I actually brought up.

[Eis]

Again what people ignore about my argument is that Mythic used to be purely about skill, gear through WoD didn't matter, playing your class did. I could get an alt raid-ready in about a day if I were to switch mains. It meant that the people most progressed in Mythic were the more skilled players. This is not the case right now, as currently you have to meet a purely arbitrary numbers gate to even be able to attempt bosses past Trilliax.

How well you play your class ceases to be a factor when your fireball simply does half the damage of your friend who is not as good at casting fireballs as you, but spent a month doing Maw boost groups.

Your argument is hyperbole and exaggeration. You are not facing this with rational, well reasoned points, and are instead throwing on some sweet Rose-Tinted Goggles. If your guild is benching people because of "arbitrary numbers" and bringing only the people who "spent a month doing Maw boost groups", maybe it's because they're more dedicated and deserving of a raid spot than you. Maybe you're an awful raider and don't realize, maybe your opinion of yourself is skewed, maybe you don't put the effort your guild feels is required in, or maybe your raid leaders are horribly misinformed. None of these things are Blizzard's fault.

Now, tell me, why does someone who hasn't put as much time into progressing their character deserve a raid spot over someone who has? That seems to be your argument now, though to be fair, your argument is all over the place so it's hard to pin down.

[Myta]

Your argument is hyperbole and exaggeration. You are not facing this with rational, well reasoned points, and are instead throwing on some sweet Rose-Tinted Goggles. If your guild is benching people because of "arbitrary numbers" and bringing only the people who "spent a month doing Maw boost groups", maybe it's because they're more dedicated and deserving of a raid spot than you. Maybe you're an awful raider and don't realize, maybe your opinion of yourself is skewed, maybe you don't put the effort your guild feels is required in, or maybe your raid leaders are horribly misinformed. None of these things are Blizzard's fault.

Now, tell me, why does someone who hasn't put as much time into progressing their character deserve a raid spot over someone who has? That seems to be your argument now, though to be fair, your argument is all over the place so it's hard to pin down.

My guild isn't benching anyone for anything? You seem to think that if a person is arguing something, that they personally must be affected and you construct your argument with a mental image of this sort of player. Your reasoning is flawed and you're arguing against a shadow version of a person who I have no relation to, while ignoring my actual points.

Perhaps you can start by trying to understand that it is possible to understand and empathize with people who are not you, and that by understanding other players, the game's direction as a whole you can evaluate whether a system is good or bad instead of your purely gut reaction personal bias you are injecting into my arguments.q

[Queen of Hamsters]

If you think there's no place for Mythic, there's a place for you in any of the lower difficulties... or LFR...

Tightly tuned fights tuned specifically to people that WILL be able to tackle them eventually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Ulduar "hardmode" system.

The difficulty I'd remove, would be Normal, if any.

[Eis]

My guild isn't benching anyone for anything? You seem to think that if a person is arguing something, that they personally must be affected and to construct your argument as you concoct a mental image of what sort of spurned person. Your reasoning is flawed and you're arguing against a shadow version of a person who I have know relation to, while ignoring my actual points.

Perhaps you can start by trying to understand that it is possible to understand and empathize with people who are not you, and that by understanding other players, the game's direction as a whole you can evaluate whether a system is good or bad instead of your purely gut reaction personal bias you are injecting into my arguments.

Sorry for not clearly defining "you", I guess. For the sake of argument, can you respond not assuming I'm talking about you you, and instead about this metaphorical other raider you.

Why does someone who hasn't put as much time into progressing their character deserve a raid spot over someone who has?

[Moshots]

Mythic should be removed....


And renamed Nightmare.

Normal should be tuned between where normal and heroic is now.
Heroic tuned between current Heroic/Mythic so that there is a Flex raid difficulty for Non Super hardcore guilds to progress at that isn't a joke.

and then

Nightmare Tuned to 54 trait atleast 1 BIS legendary basically every boss tuned to Prenerf Star Augur and taking 100 pulls a boss to clear.

[Deavane]

I actually completely agree with OP. Sounds like a good idea imo since it lets the world first guilds stay competing even until the next raid tier. Maybe cut off the rewards around heroic difficulty level and just let the mythic raiders go ham with their achievement lust. They would probs even stay subbed instead of cancelling so that they can always be better than everyone else.

Almost certain they don't want that. The way they raid is meant to be a short burst. They go really hard for two-three weeks and then they're done "progressing" and from that point on they are working on alts for splits for the coming raid. Just because they finish the raid doesn't mean they unsub either. They clear the raid in a single night after progression.

[Myta]

Sorry for not clearly defining "you", I guess. For the sake of argument, can you respond not assuming I'm talking about you you, and instead about this metaphorical other raider you.

Why does someone who hasn't put as much time into progressing their character deserve a raid spot over someone who has?

There are modes of progression that just shouldn't exist, and this is one of them. It sounds harsh, but it's very comparable to Grand Marshall/High Warlord, where the necessity to stay competitive, especially if you're in a top 200 guild and are expected to maintain AP on 2-4 alts for split runs, while under the subtle assumption that if you get bad Legendaries you should just reroll your whole character. Maybe that's going too far.

It creates a system where skill is not the currency of what makes a recruit most valuable, but what assets he brings (In accumulated AP levels on his account) as that currently translates to better success than being great at your class. Somewhere along the line 'bring the player not the class' has become completely forgotten, as guilds right now are penalized for doing this. As every GL knows, for every good player on their team who hasn't done enough Maw Runs that week is actively hurting his guild.

To me, gear, consumables, etc are a means to an end and all of that should be a non-existent determination of a guild recruit, those are just gold sinks to raiding. And for the most part gear could be offset with skill. But now AP is god, AP is everything. Hopefully they fix it, because the Paragon system has ruined what would have otherwise been one of the most beautiful and entertaining raids yet.

[JemiS]

You realize that the differences from paragon levels in AP now are smaller than gear differences ever were before, right?

The difference between 35 and 54 is just under 10% damage. 10% damage is a very small difference in the scheme of either gearing or skill. This is analogous to the tier-sets of every prior expansion's race, where the difference between having a 4-piece and not could well be 10% of your DPS (or more, sometimes). Ditto getting the right trinket.

If 10% is "everything", then something is wrong with how you're approaching things.

You hyperbole to "my fireball is doing half of what someone else's is because I didn't play MAW", but in reality, it's not half.... It's 10% less. That's a very small difference to be getting this out of shape over.

[Eis]

There are modes of progression that just shouldn't exist, and this is one of them. It sounds harsh, but it's very comparable to Grand Marshall/High Warlord, where the necessity to stay competitive, especially if you're in a top 200 guild and are expected to maintain AP on 2-4 alts for split runs, while under the subtle assumption that if you get bad Legendaries you should just reroll your whole character. Maybe that's going too far.

It creates a system where skill is not the currency of what makes a recruit most valuable, but what assets he brings (In accumulated AP levels on his account) as that currently translates to better success than being great at your class. Somewhere along the line 'bring the player not the class' has become completely forgotten, as guilds right now are penalized for doing this. As every GL knows, for every good player on their team who hasn't done enough Maw Runs that week is actively hurting his guild.

To me, gear, consumables, etc are a means to an end and all of that should be a non-existent determination of a guild recruit, those are just gold sinks to raiding. And for the most part gear could be offset with skill. But now AP is god, AP is everything. Hopefully they fix it, because the Paragon system has ruined what would have otherwise been one of the most beautiful and entertaining raids yet.

If you are not pushing world firsts and your guild is imposing these requirements, your guild is trying to compensate for being bad by grinding hardcore. There is a difference between "necessary" and "helpful" that I believe is being misconstrued here.

I seriously doubt the difference between the same skill level of player with varying level of AP is as drastic as you're making it sound. You could honestly replace "AP/artifact traits/legendaries" with "gear" in your argument and get a similar argument that has been beaten to death over the years. Skill is always most important, and if you're ignoring skill for the sake of gear, you either can't properly judge skill or you place too high of a value on gear.

[Myta]

If you are not pushing world firsts and your guild is imposing these requirements, your guild is trying to compensate for being bad by grinding hardcore. There is a difference between "necessary" and "helpful" that I believe is being misconstrued here.

I seriously doubt the difference between the same skill level of player with varying level of AP is as drastic as you're making it sound. You could honestly replace "AP/artifact traits/legendaries" with "gear" with your argument and get a similar argument that has been beaten to death over the years. Skill is always most important, and if you're ignoring skill for the sake of gear, you either can't properly judge skill or you place too high of a value on gear.

But nonetheless, encounters are balanced around guilds that do precisely this, with upper Nighthold bosses being pure AP checks. Faced with that situation there is no room for 'git gud', when said raider leader has to explain the reason to why they're wiping to the raid is because people aren't running Maw hard enough, that becomes disheartening and is unhealthy. It is not difficult or skillful to farm AP, it is a gate pure and simple. It's not right to assume that everyone at high Paragon levels are 'the best players' but when faced with a 45+ paragon player who is uncertain in skill level, versus someone who is maybe around 5+ but you know he is good? Most guilds are not social enough or buddy enough to care, the 45+ app will be accepted every single time.

At the same time what is gear? You can get an alt in the past raid-ready in a day. Gear, consumables were the least important thing about a player, as that's easy to get. Gear is just a means to do the raid (though some people see gear as the reasons you do the raid). The paradigm has shifted now, and for the worse. Your ability to defeat bosses boils down to how much you farmed a 5man between raids, and then the Raid Leader has to be in the position to say "It's not enough, we mathematically cannot kill this boss".

It sucks that Blizzard created a system where people should feel disappointed that they didn't exploit AP when they had the chance.

You hyperbole to "my fireball is doing half of what someone else's is because I didn't play MAW", but in reality, it's not half.... It's 10% less. That's a very small difference to be getting this out of shape over.

I think you underestimate how ridiculous +10% damage is. Half damage fireballs is an exaggeration, but regardless 10% is a ridiculous buff to your damage.

[JemiS]

But you're making 10% out to be some gargantuan difference that's never existed before. Take HFC: Having your class trinket vs not was easily 10%. Most tier sets were easily 10%. And it's honestly only 10% if you're looking at an alt that hit 110 two days ago. Anyone other than a fresh alt should be past 35, making the difference some variable number under 9.5%. Also, you keep talking about 5+ and 45+, but I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers. Paragon levels start at 36, and increase to 54. You can't have both 5 and 45 paragon levels in the same scenario.

You said that gearing has never made as much of a difference as artifacts do now, but that's blatantly false.

Whether you look at gearing examples from past expansions, or keeping up with an artifact from this expansion, either had fairly significant effects on your performance.

You couldn't take a fresh alt and have them within 10% of a main in any past expansion, and you can't now either- that's not something that's changed.

You could take an a fresh alt and have them mythic ready in a short time, and you still can. That's also not something that's changed.

What's changed is the skewed perception, despite evidence to the contrary, that this DPS difference is somehow more significant than any of the past DPS differences.

[ItsTiddles]

What we have currently is creating an unsustainable mess of burnt out players by forcing people to no-life the game to 45+ traits to even mathematically be able to beat the boss.

The only people who have to no-life anything in this game are members of guilds who are competing for top tier raiding ranks. Those members know what they signed up for, so I do not feel bad for them. As for trait 45? You in no way have to "no life" this game to achieve that. As cliche as it is to say, you literally just have to play the game. The only people who "struggle" to get to there are the type of people who only log in for raid. If you don't want to put a little time and effort in to progress yourself in order to help your raid, then good riddance.

[cFortyfive]

It shows.

What exactly did he miss ? The valuable contribution that incredibly fascinating that keystone mythic+ system allegedly is ?