Does the US meddle in the Russian political process?

[Independent voter]

No, he wants payback against the US. He wants America citizens to be punished for actions of their government against Russia.

No, Putin wants to distract the Russian people from his and the other oligarchs bad management of Russia. This is a very old political trick.

[May90]

Sadly, they don't meddle enough...

[Deleted]

(source for main quote)

(New Yorker Article it discusses)

In short, in a world accusations about electoral manipulation, is the US innocent of this? Is Russia, if manipulating our elections, doing anything more serious than we regularly may be doing to them and others?

That's an entirely different kind of meddling though. Few countries can say that they don't have a vested interest in who gets elected in other countries and many excert different kinds of influence and pressure to do so.
Difference here being that what Russia allegedly did is more direct meddling, in my opinion. It wasn't just supporting a group or a leader of a group.

That said, Russia calling the US out on hypocricy is a serious case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Felya]

No, Putin wants to distract the Russian people from his and the other oligarchs bad management of Russia. This is a very old political trick.

I'm not talking about Putin, but the poster.

[Araya]

The only countries I'd believe the US didn't meddle in are Germany, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and The UK. And even those I'd have decent enough doubts in.

[Halicia]

Wasn't the Soviet Union called an Empire by many sources? Empire is a figure of speech people use now for an interventionist country seeking to dominate others. Hence why the Soviet Union was called an Empire.

If the Soviet Union was referred to as an Empire, its most likely because before the revolution, it *was* one.

Otherwise its just a misappropriation of speech. As in "I'm literally walking on air!"... unless you're POTUS, just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

[Independent voter]

Does France meddle in Russian affairs?

Some.

How about Germany? Japan?

Yep.

[Theodarzna]

If the Soviet Union was referred to as an Empire, its most likely because before the revolution, it *was* one.

Otherwise its just a misappropriation of speech. As in "I'm literally walking on air!"... unless you're POTUS, just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Zbigniew Brzezinski

As an example.

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That's an entirely different kind of meddling though. Few countries can say that they don't have a vested interest in who gets elected in other countries and many excert different kinds of influence and pressure to do so.
Difference here being that what Russia allegedly did is more direct meddling, in my opinion. It wasn't just supporting a group or a leader of a group.

That said, Russia calling the US out on hypocricy is a serious case of the pot calling the kettle black.

At most the Russian government is accused of giving the go ahead for some group to release not so nice information about Hillary Clinton. Or at least that is the most we might be able to prove, if that.

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What self defense? We had Russian spies kicked out just 6 years ago. Self defense against US sanctions?



Yes, when such authority speaks... you must treat it as fact. Now quote me next time, I'll give you a good one...

The for meddling in 2016... 1... 2... 3... 4... I declare a thumb war!!

Scroe means war, Felya means thumb war... because... I am the law!!

While speculating about RussiaGhazi is fun, The US and Russia have had a bad relationship since 1917 at least. In this instance, it seems the US has been fucking around with Russia's elections since the 90's and almost certainly had as many spies in their country as they had in ours. More over, we for sure have spies there now.

[Charge me Doctor]

What Russian political process?
Putin doesn't need any help being an autocratic thug.

If you mean funding NGOs trying to return liberal democracy to Russia, then yes, I suppose you could call that "meddling."

What if. Putin is US pupet created by meddling with Russian political process?

[Theodarzna]

Is Skroe our government all of the sudden? He's one forum poster with an opinion, just like you. The sanctions are the only thing that will be done. Even if it turns out the entire Trump team colluded with Russia and they were all run out of town we still wouldn't go to war with them. Don't worry comrade your bros are safe.

Is our governments word trustworthy? If the "Intelligence Spooks," claim something, are we supposed to actually believe it.

If Wikileaks is this massive horrible Russian overthrow of America, then surely America is as if not possibly more guilty of meddling in their elections.

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What if. Putin is US pupet created by meddling with Russian political process?

That would be an amazing and blatant use the political philosophy, and noted Nazi, Carl Schmitt. Mainly that in order to keep America together it needs an enemy to fight and without an enemy the United States will simply collapse from infighting and despair.

Us installing Putin simply to give the United States proles something to rally their two minute hate around would be an impressive feat of political strategy and social control. But it strikes as a bit too much of a stretch for me. XD

[Dug]

Is our governments word trustworthy? If the "Intelligence Spooks," claim something, are we supposed to actually believe it.

If Wikileaks is this massive horrible Russian overthrow of America, then surely America is as if not possibly more guilty of meddling in their elections.

Again what is your point? What is it that you want? The sanctions lifted? To what end? Please know this and know this well, Russia (Putin) is not now nor ever will be interested in being our ally. Them buddying up to Trump is only because Trump claims he wants to take a more isolationist stance. That would work very well in Russia's favor and their future endeavors to expand their reach.

[starlord]

Putin pays russian trolls to pose as pro trump, pro Russia American citizens on the internet:

"It is designed, as retired KGB General Oleg Kalugin once defined it, 'to drive wedges in the Western community alliances of all sorts, particularly NATO, to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people in Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and thus to prepare ground in case the war really occurs.' The most common subcategory of active measures is dezinformatsiya, or disinformation: feverish, if believable lies cooked up by Moscow Centre and planted in friendly media outlets to make democratic nations look sinister."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bus...d-trump-2016-7

They "weave propaganda seamlessly into what appear to be musings of an everyday person."

[Charge me Doctor]

That would be an amazing and blatant use the political philosophy, and noted Nazi, Carl Schmitt. Mainly that in order to keep America together it needs an enemy to fight and without an enemy the United States will simply collapse from infighting and despair.

Us installing Putin simply to give the United States proles something to rally their two minute hate around would be an impressive feat of political strategy and social control. But it strikes as a bit too much of a stretch for me. XD

Honestly, there are way more "enemies of US" to point at to "unite" country (i'm not sure how constant war inside a country, aka "right versus left" helps in that case).

After seeing from inside how election in Russia are run i am not surprised that Putin stays here for so long. It doesn't even involve cheating on votes count, it's just... people who vote are old, those who do not want Unite Russia (and their face-man-Putin) in charge are brainwashed into thinking that elections do not matter so they just don't vote. It's hilarious. And scary. Decoy opposition like Prokhorov or Navalniy is what keeps Putin in charge, not US meddling with Russia politics

[Theodarzna]

Again what is your point? What is it that you want? The sanctions lifted? To what end? Please know this and know this well, Russia (Putin) is not now nor ever will be interested in being our ally. Them buddying up to Trump is only because Trump claims he wants to take a more isolationist stance. That would work very well in Russia's favor and their future endeavors to expand their reach.

My point is that I am not about to go to war over Wikileaks. In all honesty, Russia has likely been off and on trying to "influence," our elections since 1920. Somewhat how the US expeditionary force that landed in Eastern Russia was trying to influence the civil war there at that same time way back when. Hyperventilating and grandstanding as if this is the worst atrocity since Pearl Harbor is insane or acting like this is an attack is patently histrionic. Plus I am not about to write the Pope and request America be sainted an act as if the US is some sinless angel in this.

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Putin pays russian trolls to pose as pro trump, pro Russia American citizens on the internet:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bus...d-trump-2016-7

They "weave propaganda seamlessly into what appear to be musings of an everyday person."

Reminds me how Correct the Record paid trolls to be pro-Clinton. :3

[Dug]

My point is that I am not about to go to war over Wikileaks. In all honesty, Russia has likely been off and on trying to "influence," our elections since 1920. Somewhat how the US expeditionary force that landed in Eastern Russia was trying to influence the civil war there at that same time way back when. Hyperventilating and grandstanding as if this is the worst atrocity since Pearl Harbor is insane or acting like this is an attack is patently histrionic. Plus I am not about to write the Pope and request America be sainted an act as if the US is some sinless angel in this.

When did we declare war on Russia? Must have missed that on the news this evening.

[Theodarzna]

I am curious @darenyon, is all information that isn't unflinchingly singing the praises of the United States Russian Propaganda?

What is the line of what we are allowed to criticize in this glorious Land of the Free, Radiant Shining City on a Hill and definitely the New Jerusalem? How positive should I be? Is there a metric? How far back must I be positive? Is pointing out the trail of tears Anti-American? Our less the savory activities during the Mexican American War? Vietnam?

What is legitimate criticism and discussion in your view?

[Auxora]

I know the US has at times done some minor supporting of anti-hardline/Putin politicians in other neighboring countries just to try to contain his influence. But definitely nothing to the degree that Russia did in the last year, where very direct intervention both in releasing negative info against Hillary and (at least it appears) coaching and giving inside info to Trump and his team leading up to the election. That's on a whole different level and not really comparable, although Putin has tried to use that excuse of American intervention to justify what the Russians did without actually admitting any wrongdoing. Speeding isn't equal to murder, but it seems like there is a tendency lately to oversimplify that if 2 parties do something bad, even if the actions aren't close in severity, they since they both did bad they are both equally in the wrong.

There isn't really even a way to compare the 2 since for all purposes Russia doesn't even have an opposition party for the US to meddle with and help. Putin's opponents have a tendency to end up dying, usually in very questionable circumstances like being found in the trunk of a car. If there were a legitimate opposition party that actually challenged Putin in elections to where they were within 5-10% of him, and then if the US intervened in a similar way, providing negative inside info on Putin to the opposition, and coaching the opposition on how to beat Putin, and then it worked and Putin actually lost. Then you could compare US meddling to what was done. But that's definitely not the situation since Putin doesn't even have a legit opposition party to help. So trying to say the US did the same makes no sense, it's not even possible for the US to have done the same.

[Theodarzna]

When did we declare war on Russia? Must have missed that on the news this evening.

When did they declare war on the United States?

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I know the US has at times done some minor supporting of anti-hardline/Putin politicians in other neighboring countries just to try to contain his influence. But definitely nothing to the degree that Russia did in the last year, where very direct intervention both in releasing negative info against Hillary and (at least it appears) coaching and giving inside info to Trump and his team leading up to the election in the SU. That's on a whole different level and not really comparable, although Putin has tried to use that excuse of American intervention to justify what the Russians did without actually admitting any wrongdoing. Speeding isn't equal to murder, but it seems like there is a tendency lately to oversimplify that if 2 parties do something bad, even if the actions aren't close in severity, they since they both did bad they are both equally in the wrong.

There isn't really even a way to compare the 2 since for all purposes Russia doesn't even have an opposition party for the US to meddle with and help. Putin's opponents have a tendency to end up dying, usually in very questionable circumstances like being found in the trunk of a car. If there were a legitimate opposition party that actually challenged Putin in elections to where they were within 5-10% of him, and then if the US intervened in a similar way, providing negative inside info on Putin to the opposition, and coaching the opposition on how to beat Putin, and then it worked and Putin actually lost. Then you could compare US meddling to what was done. But that's definitely not the situation since Putin doesn't even have a legit opposition party to help. So trying to say the US did the same makes no sense, it's not even possible for the US to have done the same.

So it is bad when the other party is possibly successful? And what is it Russia did exactly? We actually don't have proof in any solid sense of Putin giving any orders, or doing fuck all anything.

We know Wikileaks released Emails and errrr...... what else is being accused now in the ongoing RussiaGhazi investigation?

[Dug]

When did they declare war on the United States?

Idk you tell me, you're the one that's privy to this alleged war. Oh wait... you think because some forum warriors want to go to war that we actually will? wew lad fortunately we're here in a thing called reality

[starlord]

My point is that I am not about to go to war over Wikileaks. In all honesty, Russia has likely been off and on trying to "influence," our elections since 1920. Somewhat how the US expeditionary force that landed in Eastern Russia was trying to influence the civil war there at that same time way back when. Hyperventilating and grandstanding as if this is the worst atrocity since Pearl Harbor is insane or acting like this is an attack is patently histrionic. Plus I am not about to write the Pope and request America be sainted an act as if the US is some sinless angel in this.

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Reminds me how Correct the Record paid trolls to be pro-Clinton. :3

how's that move to argentina coming along?