[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[Dracodraco]

For simple item comparison you don't even need to import someone else with that item, syntax is quite simple. All you need is item's id (which is shown in wowhead's item link) and item's level you want to sim (which is controlled with operator "ilevel="). You don't even need to type item's name.
For example if I want to write simc comparison for Convergence of Fates (id 140806, as shown in link), I add this line after my base profile:

If I want to say that it has socket with gem, the line would be

Eh, that does make it easier - I figured the whole bonusID thing was a requirement, as it imports the items with those modifiers, but if what you're saying works, then yea, that'd do it. As said, easier methods exist

[Deleted]

So, maybe you guys can help me. The guide itself isn't clear enough for my liking in that regard. I understand that Azor wouldn't want to list a build/spec that relies on a legendary.

I got the belt and, aside from Krosus, Stargazer and maybe Elisandre, I'm never too certain about whether I should actually (not) use it, though I tend to get more stable and slightly better results with it, but not the amount of improvement I expected when I first got it.
My own raid results vary too much from kill to kill to find my own answer without hearing a second opinion first though.
In M+, I get (noticeably) better results with the Meme build, but that's different from a raid encounter, since fights don't last as long and cooldowns reset between pulls/on my way to the next group etc. and the benefit of Trick Shot (ST) isn't as significant there most of the time.


Sadly, I'm pretty reliant on the legendary Leg-piece, because my only alternative is a 890 version with bad stats.
So what I'm asking is, is belt the default choice for AoE (overtaking Piercing + MS-proc ring)? Or should I use the "Meme"-spec with the ring when it comes to encounters like Spellblade Mythic/HC or Skorp Mythic. I'm really curious about Spellblade, Trickshot allows for some Okay-ish AoE during Fire elementals, because you can AS 3-4 Fire elementals with Trueshot, use MS and cleave all targets affected with Trick Shot.
What would your Legendary choice look like on each boss if you didn't have the boots.

And the correct use of the Belt with Trueshot includes Multi/Marked spam + AiS whenever you are about to reach 20 stacks (as long as you don't cap focus before that), isn't it?
Is this also the case whenever I'm AoEing without Trueshot?

[palthis]

we should close this thread here. Get it?

[wam90210]

So I have the Mantle of Command+ Belt and 4 set. Right now I am sitting at 25% crit 16.6% haste and 67% mastery. There are still a few haste pieces I need to replace, but for the time being should i swap my ring enchants to crit from mastery? The reason why i ask is because i use OwtP on every fight now and sims is giving me very awkward weights. for ST it shows crit being way higher than agi and mastery whereas on aoe it is going to about equal with mastery. Since I haven't been lucky enough to get the mythic chest off skorp yet, I feel like taking more hits on mastery would be a bad thing, however I feel like I still need tons more crit.

[Vurrin]

should i swap my ring enchants to crit from mastery? sims showcrit being way higher

I feel like you already know the answer. For priority dmg crit is better for you, and for AoE, crit is competitive. I would, of course, attempt to verify the increased DPS with logs and dummy tests before/after, but your sims say go crit for ST, and you're not losing anything on AoE then why wouldn't you? I can't think of any oddball/badplay/boss mechanic related situations where you lose a significant portion of the simmed DPS gain from Crit other than focus capping a lot. And simc will change your weights when you get close to the diminishing reutrns on bestial wrath uptime.

[Kav]

Hey everyone, just had a quick question regarding trinkets for BM. I was looking at azors and effins trinket sims for single target, and it shows Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish as being our best trinket by a wide margin according to the charts. I have Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish, as well as a 890 foci w/ socket and and 865 bloodthirsty.

When I use simcraft, it says that Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is a dps loss when using it with either the foci or bloodthirsty, but the foci and bloodthirsty together is a dps increase. Not much mind you, but still better then Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish.

Find this odd, considering it sims so much higher in the charts. So am wondering if I should be using the foci and bloodthirsty still, or should I swap one of them out for Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish, and if so which one should I take out? Also if Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is better to use, why is it simming lower the foci and bloodthirsty together?

[Kirbypro]

Hey everyone, just had a quick question regarding trinkets for BM. I was looking at azors and effins trinket sims for single target, and it shows Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish as being our best trinket by a wide margin according to the charts. I have Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish, as well as a 890 foci w/ socket and and 865 bloodthirsty.

When I use simcraft, it says that Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is a dps loss when using it with either the foci or bloodthirsty, but the foci and bloodthirsty together is a dps increase. Not much mind you, but still better then Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish.

Find this odd, considering it sims so much higher in the charts. So am wondering if I should be using the foci and bloodthirsty still, or should I swap one of them out for Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish, and if so which one should I take out? Also if Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is better to use, why is it simming lower the foci and bloodthirsty together?

Might be hearsay but I've heard foci sims higher than it performs in real life? Keep in mind that Kiljaeden's trinket gives you a metric ton of agility and if you can regularly make use of the AOE on more than one target, it will definitely be better than foci.

[Dracodraco]

Hey everyone, just had a quick question regarding trinkets for BM. I was looking at azors and effins trinket sims for single target, and it shows Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish as being our best trinket by a wide margin according to the charts. I have Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish, as well as a 890 foci w/ socket and and 865 bloodthirsty.

When I use simcraft, it says that Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is a dps loss when using it with either the foci or bloodthirsty, but the foci and bloodthirsty together is a dps increase. Not much mind you, but still better then Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish.

Find this odd, considering it sims so much higher in the charts. So am wondering if I should be using the foci and bloodthirsty still, or should I swap one of them out for Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish, and if so which one should I take out? Also if Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish is better to use, why is it simming lower the foci and bloodthirsty together?

Are you swapping on a second legendary when you equip foci+bloodthirsty? Remember that other legendaries can account for 5% or so of your DPS; KJ sims super higher, but it comes at the cost of being both a trinket (of which there are some really good ones), and losing a legendary. It's a DPS loss for me switching on KJ as a MM hunter because I'd lose my gloves or boots doing it, despite KJ simming way higher than any other trinkets, for example.

[Kav]

Are you swapping on a second legendary when you equip foci+bloodthirsty? Remember that other legendaries can account for 5% or so of your DPS; KJ sims super higher, but it comes at the cost of being both a trinket (of which there are some really good ones), and losing a legendary. It's a DPS loss for me switching on KJ as a MM hunter because I'd lose my gloves or boots doing it, despite KJ simming way higher than any other trinkets, for example.

When I use foci+bloodthirsty, am using the belt with either opus or apex. Both setups are simming higher then the belt + KJ with either the foci/bloodthirsty. I found that kind of strange considering am getting 1k+ more agility from KJ. I understand that opus has alot of stats and the ring has the 5% pet dmg, but I never figured that they would be better then the 1k+ agility that I would gain from KJ.

[Dracodraco]

When I use foci+bloodthirsty, am using the belt with either opus or apex. Both setups are simming higher then the belt + KJ with either the foci/bloodthirsty. I found that kind of strange considering am getting 1k+ more agility from KJ. I understand that opus has alot of stats and the ring has the 5% pet dmg, but I never figured that they would be better then the 1k+ agility that I would gain from KJ.

Think of it this way - 1% agility is, rule of thumb, 1% more damage (give or take a bit). If you have 906 Ilvl like me, you should have around 33K agility (I'm using an arcanocrystal, so it'll probably hold true for 900~ ilvl as well without arcano, as you have 2x agility trinkets). Gaining an extra 1K agility is big, sure - around 3% more damage in fact.

On the other hand, if you take away that 3%, you're left with an utterly mediocre trinket; it has the same budget as a normal statstick (2K agi at 910 + ~1300 secondaries is the same as a normal statstick would have), with the legendary proc essentially being "does 840K damage every 75 seconds", translating to 11.2K dps. Lets be generous and say that's about 2% of your damage (that's about 550K dps assumed).
In the end, you're left with a statstick that does 2% proc damage, and 3% extra damage from agility - and a 910 statstick.
But you lose out on the stats you'd get from any other 940.

In opus case, an item that has a higher stat budget than normal mind you, you'd be getting 4.5K secondaries. A 910 neck gives about 3K (comparing to a 910, as that's what I boiled the above trinket's stats down to - a 910 stat stick). That means that you're getting, even at it's worst, 1.5K extra crit from the neck alone - which should easily translate into 3-4% dps (and if you have a very weak neck, say, 875-880 and without a socket, the increase is far above 5%). The ring is more modest at 700 extra secondaries, but again, it's got the guaranteed socket and 5% pet damage (which will translate to 3-4% total damage).

In the end, the legendary trinket is a bit of a "trap" - shear away the proc and the stats from it being 940, and you're left with an ordinary statstick that spreads over 3 stats instead of 1, meaning the stats and the 2% damage proc has to hold up against any other legendary. Likewise, for a spec like BM where the fact is, the instinct is worth almost the same as a 895 ideal statstick (that is, 100% mastery) - https://gyazo.com/630167c791682bd9496c75fbf4d7e0ba it's just not going to be nearly as big as you expect. Bigger than ANY OTHER trinket? Sure. But it's not due to the strength of the trinket - it's just that no other trinket can compete with a 940 statstick.

[Holovik]

Really good explanation Draco. I only use my KJ trinket on fights like skorp, spellblade, tich and of course in M+. If you can make the use hit multiple targets with TS up its a 1.3m crit on every target, which would far outweigh the benefit of most legendaries. But beyond multi add fights you're better off using regular trinkets, especially if you have good ones (ie, BTI, arcano, COF, etc...)

[Kav]

Think of it this way - 1% agility is, rule of thumb, 1% more damage (give or take a bit). If you have 906 Ilvl like me, you should have around 33K agility (I'm using an arcanocrystal, so it'll probably hold true for 900~ ilvl as well without arcano, as you have 2x agility trinkets). Gaining an extra 1K agility is big, sure - around 3% more damage in fact.

On the other hand, if you take away that 3%, you're left with an utterly mediocre trinket; it has the same budget as a normal statstick (2K agi at 910 + ~1300 secondaries is the same as a normal statstick would have), with the legendary proc essentially being "does 840K damage every 75 seconds", translating to 11.2K dps. Lets be generous and say that's about 2% of your damage (that's about 550K dps assumed).
In the end, you're left with a statstick that does 2% proc damage, and 3% extra damage from agility - and a 910 statstick.
But you lose out on the stats you'd get from any other 940.

In opus case, an item that has a higher stat budget than normal mind you, you'd be getting 4.5K secondaries. A 910 neck gives about 3K (comparing to a 910, as that's what I boiled the above trinket's stats down to - a 910 stat stick). That means that you're getting, even at it's worst, 1.5K extra crit from the neck alone - which should easily translate into 3-4% dps (and if you have a very weak neck, say, 875-880 and without a socket, the increase is far above 5%). The ring is more modest at 700 extra secondaries, but again, it's got the guaranteed socket and 5% pet damage (which will translate to 3-4% total damage).

In the end, the legendary trinket is a bit of a "trap" - shear away the proc and the stats from it being 940, and you're left with an ordinary statstick that spreads over 3 stats instead of 1, meaning the stats and the 2% damage proc has to hold up against any other legendary. Likewise, for a spec like BM where the fact is, the instinct is worth almost the same as a 895 ideal statstick (that is, 100% mastery) - https://gyazo.com/630167c791682bd9496c75fbf4d7e0ba it's just not going to be nearly as big as you expect. Bigger than ANY OTHER trinket? Sure. But it's not due to the strength of the trinket - it's just that no other trinket can compete with a 940 statstick.

Thanks for the information. Looks like i'll be using apex + roar for the most part then, outside of any add heavy fights.

One other thing I was wondering about stat weights with BM. Is it normal when you have low haste, for haste to sim so high that it almost matches agility?

My current stat weights are Agility=18.77, CritRating=14.34, HasteRating=18.14, MasteryRating=16.41, Versatility=13.56, Dps=9.00

Does that seem right for haste to sim so close to agility? I'm sitting at 26% crit, almost 12% haste and 80% mastery. I know my haste is low but I also understand that Simc can sometimes value haste to be much higher then what it actually is worth. So is that the case, or is my haste just so low that those are the actual values? My understanding is if you are using bloodthirsty trinket, you can sit on a lower haste value due to the uptime on bloodthirsty.

Edit: I did some simming,changing out my 2 mastery gems to haste and 1 of my mastery enchants to haste and I got a 1k increase. My mastery dropped down to 77% which seems kinda low to me. Since it's only a 1k dps increase, do you guys think I should just stick with the mastery gems/enchants or should I go by Simc and start stacking haste till my weights "normalize".

[Dracodraco]

If you have full TS CDR excluding boots, you also have TS up every time your trinket is rdy. Which greatly improves the trinket, especially for aoe burst (2nd boss, Alluriel, Botanist) and minor increase for ST

This is true - but then, if you have every bis piece, your TS is on a ~55-60 second CD, and then you have to ask yourself if it's worth delaying TS for the trinket (which it's not). If your trinket comes off CD the same/quicker than TS, you'll see an improvement on the proc (boosting it to ~15.5-16K dps on a single target).
But then comes the encounter specifics of "should I delay it for another 20 seconds to blast the adds that are about to spawn" and so forth, and I've simply not used it enough to bother figuring all of that out :P.

[Dracodraco]

Back in the first month of NH I had 4p, COF Trinket & 1TS Relic and the Legendary trinket would always be get rdy in the TS window.
If you have 55s CD, you have the boots as well, which I excluded

...Yes, you did exclude it, which is why I said "if you have every bis piece". That includes the boots. I'd have no reason to make the comment at all if I weren't pointing out that "sure, if you have all of those it just so happens to line up, but if you are lacking or have something extra, it doesn't anymore" - it's a sweet spot that some hunters might hit, but most won't.

[Vurrin]

So I have boots+ mantle running owtp/aspect of the beast and I'm curious what the preferred non-hero opener looks like. Currently I do pre-pot, crows. BW+KC, DB, Cobra, KC+aspect, DB+TT, Cobra, KC then rest is based on db resets etc. Just curious how that compares to say doing something like 2 x db losing most of a KC reset from boots but gaining a bit of burst and tt dmg, or if there is some other better option I'm not considering/accounting for.

Which really is just another way of saying is KC -> DB -> Cobra -> KC the "proper" standard rotation for Boots+ mantle when high on focus/DB proc/charges

[Khrux]

For me its usually Crows > BW > KC > DB > DB > TT > Aspect > KC

Crows + the first KC is enough focus dumping to allow you to double DB + TT without focus capping before starting your KC/Cobra spam with aspect up.

[Inerras]

Pretty much the same for me, crows > bw+kc macro > db > db > tt > aspect+kc macro, no wasted focus and now you have 2 dire beasts up to buff cs if you use wotc as well.

[Deleted]

snapshotting is not a thing anymore, and, this is comming from someone who's not playing BM, you probably want to use as many GCDs for KC/Cobra as possible.

[Inerras]

With boots, each db is a 3 sec cdr for kc, so double db is pretty much a full reset. I'm using mantle+boots, so I'm not wasting focus because I don't have the focus reduction from belt. I pop tt immediately after the 2nd db because as you said, it's not on the gcd. Even with lust, one db is not enough to reset kc, you'll have a couple seconds left so might as well pop that 2nd db. I usually have a 3rd db procced by that time anyway, so I try to use up the db charges as fast as I can.

[macazine]

How long should I delay Kil'Jaeden's Burning Wish for Trueshot, assuming single target? Same question for multi target.