Alternative facts to a whole new level : denying the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact.

[Deleted]

I do not understand the Russian mindset, nobady would care about this tree if our congenial Russian poster did post somthing like this: Stalin was a brutal and ruthless dictator who did see a opportunity to expand his territory, insted of post shallow justification.....

[Enthusiastic Steward]

It certainly did not helped. FTR, tactics like ''delay'' or ''trading space for time'' are not done by putting your army next to the border to be conveniently encircled by the Nazis.

But that's what I'm saying. The Soviets would have done this regardless of whether the border was in occupied Poland or not. It didn't help, but it didn't hurt either. The Soviet rout in the summer of '41 was not contingent on the specific location of the Nazi/Soviet border, but rather Soviet incompetence and lack of preparedness.

[Elim Garak]

I do not understand the Russian mindset, nobady would care about this tree if our congenial Russian poster did post somthing like this: Stalin was a brutal and ruthless dictator who did see a opportunity to expand his territory, insted of post shallow justification.....

Because it's not what you want. You will not be content with just blaming one person. Who was not even Russian.

[Pengekaer]

Does the Russian posters realize that this was such a good move that the Red Army took in Eastern Poland more casualties in the summer of 1941 than the United States during the entire war ?

Or, also, that signing the pact was what started the whole war ?

Good point.

In my experience, there are so many who out of a misunderstood sense of loyalty to their nation will defend each and everything it and its varying governments have ever done.

How come present day Russians try to defend the government of the Soviet Union, when in fact, said government got so many of their own ancestors killed through sheer barbarism and incompetence its unfathomable.
You russians do realize that Stalin and the communists finished off more Russians than the United States ever did? :S

[Shalcker]

You got your answer before but it looks like you ignored it so again: peace with Japan 15.09. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

Obviously that also helped, but you couldn't even transfer troops from East to West those days in two days.

[Flarelaine]

Meh, French and UK love to forget their Hitler appeasement too (as well as deny that Poles were betrayed by them).

And appeasement was just as shameful.

[Shalcker]

Russia actively trying to take away Poland's statehood moments after Polish people regained it (with it also being taken away by the Russians the first time) has been the biggest reason for this no matter how hard you try to handwave it away.

And they chosen France and UK as allies in this struggle who promptly betrayed them.

Works much better when you ally with those you actually share border with...

[Elim Garak]

You russians do realize that Stalin and the communists finished off more Russians than the United States ever did? :S

We do, like nobody else can, that's why we don't care for how many others Stalin had killed, like for instance, Poles. But people always bring that up.
I will say again. We don't care how many Poles, Scandinavians and other eastern Europeans were killed by Stalin.
Because he killed a lot more RUSSIANS than all of those combined and every time you bring them up is an insult, as if their lives should matter to us more.

[Pengekaer]

Stalin did what he could to make USSR winning side in such war in shortest time possible; that included various "purges" of people who thought otherwise - those who thought we should take it slow to build up stuff, those who thought we should unite with German proletariat in their struggle (and that Nazi might be ultimately acceptable),

That makes the Soviet Government little, if any, better than the nazis.

[Deleted]

Because it's not what you want. You will not be content with just blaming one person.

And what are you afriad of? That Russia will get the German treatment? That vicinity/kinship somehow gives inheritance guilt?

Who was not even Russian.

and Hitler was from Austria-Hungary.....

[Shalcker]

That makes the Soviet Government little, if any, better than the nazis.

*shrug* Why do they have to be better?

They had differences, they had similarities, they had different factions with different goals/viewpoints.

In the end Germans lost and USSR won. Survival of the fittest societies.

[Deleted]

In the end Germans lost and USSR won. Survival of the fittest societies.

So the goal justifies the means?

[Shalcker]

So the goal justifies the means?

If "not getting to goal" means "being genocided" - definitely.

[Elim Garak]

And what are you afriad of? That Russia will get the German treatment? That vicinity/kinship somehow gives inheritance guilt?

Who said I'm afraid? I said it's pointless. It won't achieve desired effect for both parties and will only lead to pointless bickering.

How about you come out and say "it's not Russia's fault it was just evil Stalin, our hearts with the people of Russia who survived his rule".

and Hitler was from Austria-Hungary.....

And Russians do not blame Germans for anything anymore. We blame Nazis with Hitler.

[Thalassian Bob]

Claiming that there was a joint operation against Poland is a libel, not defending "facts".

You're right. My mistake. I should have clarified that first Nazi Germany raped Poland. Then, when the Allies dragged the Reich off her beaten and broken body, the Soviet Union jumped upon poor Poland for sloppy seconds and made her a slave.

The Soviet Union, under one of the most vial men in modern history, Vasily Blokhin, committed one of the most terrible mass executions (political genocide) of the 20th Century and Polish Communist puppets under pressure from the Soviets murdered Polish national heroes like Witold Pilecki who had more moral and physical courage than most of Hitler's and Stalin's circles combined.

[Deleted]

How about you come out and say "it's not Russia's fault it was just evil Stalin, our hearts with the people of Russia who survived his rule".

I thought it was understood, that most peopel are victims during a brutal dictatorship and just trying to survive, that include Russians during Stalins dictatorship.

And Russians do not blame Germans for anything anymore. We blame Nazis with Hitler.

Sound as an understanding attitude, but are you not a bit worried then your fellow countrymen defend Stalin action and Stalinism-communism (or what Stalins ideology is called)

[Deleted]

Obviously that also helped, but you couldn't even transfer troops from East to West those days in two days.

It's not about transfering troops. Lets imagine USSR invading Poland lets say week after Germany (they could give same reasons, they gave 17.09), they are at war with Japan and maybe even with France and GB. Good idea? I don't think so. Japan even defeated won't stop war. USSR is landlocked by GB and Japan. Common Stalin was not stupid.
Lets say there's no treaty, Japan is on war with USSR, and Germany join them after France....
Peace with Japan was necessary to even start something in Europe. Remeber USSR declared war on Japan after they win with Germany. Wars in places 11 k kms from each other were hard to manage in 1939...

And you don't even know how important was victory over Japan. It pushed them to make expansion on Pacific, South Asia.

[Independent voter]

Soviet historians with agenda just didn't happen until late 1980s, and they were the ones dealing with archives. It was relevant to them "to show Soviet crimes", which is the only reason why it was brought up at all.

Khrushchev told the world about Stalin's crimes against humanity, mostly against his fellow citizens.

That's in the 1960's or so. There were a bunch of pro-Russian types in the US that Stalin called "useful idiots", these pro-Soviet American's were disheartened when they learned about Stalin's crimes.

[Kellhound]

I don't care about coulds. The German invasion happened in entirely different manner in way more entry points than some eastern Poland.
Not to mention Stalin didn't anticipate the German invasion so soon.

That's just some random nonsense

If USSR didn't take eastern Poland then the German invasion would've STARTED from Eastern Poland. Instead of Western. DUH.
Fighting thru eastern Poland won some time.

It didnt win very much time. The USSR was saved by German errors, the willingness to sacrifice almost the entire population, a large area to retreat into, and winter. It would not have changed the outcome had Germany occupied all of Poland.

[Alexeht]

Point is, I really don't think you mean it. But if you do, well, okay.

Damn you seems to be triggered. Ofc not more regular soldiers, but more commie officers. Also there is difference between capturing people to shoot them in back of the head, and a battle (where at least you have some chances to survive).