Do you see value in Patriotism?

[Macaquerie]

People always need something to feel good about, and when you're one of those people that doesn't have a whole lot to be happy about otherwise, a bit of national pride can help you stay productive and motivated, and governments have certainly managed to use this sentiment quite effectively over the centuries. However, sort of like religious faith, it is sort of fundamentally bullshit at its core, which everyone more or less realizes but which we can't do anything about cause it's sometimes better to believe the comforting lie than face the harsh reality.

[Kokolums]

Doesn't the use of patriotism almost always also have an ulterior motive?

Actually I think for a lot of patriots its a really simple and straightforward issue with no ulterior motive. "I've got food, clothing, and shelter. I'm happy. I'm a patriot. Done."

[Wildtree]

Do you understand that your question is being asked before an ultra-liberal forum.
Obviously they'll say no with proving grounds as stupid as this one

"its a great tool of manipulation"

Since when are patriotism and political left exclusive from another?
And no, these forums are certainly not ultra-liberal.
They're more to the left (by US standards) yes. But that comes from the fact that the political scale reads different in the US.
In Europe, which provides the majority of the forum members, even the right wing is for many Americans left/liberal.

You sound like you are confusing patriotism with nationalism..

[Deleted]

Yes, prove how great patriotism is, by calling someone else a "eurocuck."

Patriotism can be great, it can help rally people against a major evil. It can also lead people to be that very same evil.

he didn't said eurocuck he said eurcocuck

yeah the american education system is that bad they can barely spell their names

[Machismo]

Actually I think for a lot of patriots its a really simple and straightforward issue with no ulterior motive. "I've got food, clothing, and shelter. I'm happy. I'm a patriot. Done."

How often do people talk about patriotism, without speaking in the context of another issue? It's almost always about a political issue.

[Dmitro]

I'm not sure why you think this is a liberal versus conservative thing. Patriotism often goes against some of the fundamental principles of conservatism. Patriotism has been used to fight free trade, limited government, and personal freedoms... all in the past decade in your country. In all cases, that is people using patriotism to go limit conservative beliefs.

its not liberal versus conservative thing since conservatives generally have no problems with being patriots, but the left on the other side...
Literally 0 clue how you brought that up into a "liberals-patriotism" connection

Basically the entire liberal individualistic humanistic ideology is anti-patriotism and we see it more and more.
The core of that ideology is to !liberate! a human being from any kind of social identity ( religious, national, ethnic, sexual, gender ( the last trend)

I soon expect you guys to start talking about mixing with animals, why not, its a personal matter!

[Wildtree]

he didn't said eurocuck he said eurcocuck

He actually said nothing at all.. He wrote. And his crime is a typo.

yeah the american education system is that bad they can barely spell their names

Speaking of typo.....
I would point yours out, if your nation bashing wasn't more obvious.

[Kokolums]

I'm not sure why you think this is a liberal versus conservative thing. Patriotism often goes against some of the fundamental principles of conservatism. Patriotism has been used to fight free trade, limited government, and personal freedoms... all in the past decade in your country. In all cases, that is people using patriotism to go limit conservative beliefs.

It makes sense given the fact that the democrat party is basically completely shut out of power. The republicans run the white house, congress, the supreme court, and most state governments. It would be a pretty good guess that someone who questions patriotism in this alignment is a democrat. I think that's pretty easy to grasp.

In 2009, when democrats ran almost everything, it would have been a pretty good guess that someone who questions patriotism is a republican. Again, pretty easy to grasp.

[Machismo]

its not liberal versus conservative thing since conservatives generally have no problems with being patriots, but the left on the other side...
Literally 0 clue how you brought that up into a "liberals-patriotism" connection

Basically the entire liberal individualistic humanistic ideology is anti-patriotism and we see it more and more.
The core of that ideology is to !liberate! a human being from any kind of social identity ( religious, national, ethnic, sexual, gender ( the last trend)

I soon expect you guys to start talking about mixing with animals, why not, its a personal matter!

Ummm... you brought it up. You are the one who started whining about liberals. You quite literally made it a conservative-versus-liberal issue.

You are proving my initial point for me, thanks.

"Do you understand that your question is being asked before an ultra-liberal forum.
Obviously they'll say no with proving grounds as stupid as this one

"its a great tool of manipulation""

"Whats wrong with liberals, why is their mentality is so poisoned with this neomarxist ideology of us ( people) and they ( lords )

Just look at this topic, literally
These people cant ever imagine that something called patriotism can be born within a human being not from outside.

Laughable."

[Flarelaine]

Patriotism is the last refuge of those who can't find worth in what they achieved and cling desparately to where they belong.

[Machismo]

It make sense given the fact that the democrat party is basically completely shut out of power. The republicans run the white house, congress, the supreme court, and most state governments. It would be a pretty good guess that someone who questions patriotism in this alignment is a democrat. I think that's pretty easy to grasp.

I question patriotism, and I'm not a Democrat.

Patriotism was pushed when the Democrats were the party in power. It's a propaganda tool, and an effective one at that. Like I said, it can be used to sell just about anything, from cars... all the way up to mass genocide.

[Super Kami Dende]

Patriotism isn't bad. Anyone that has ever cheered for their teams at a World games or Olympics has shown patriotism.

Isolationism is what is bad.

[Dmitro]

Since when are patriotism and political left exclusive from another?
And no, these forums are certainly not ultra-liberal.
They're more to the left (by US standards) yes. But that comes from the fact that the political scale reads different in the US.
In Europe, which provides the majority of the forum members, even the right wing is for many Americans left/liberal.

You sound like you are confusing patriotism with nationalism..

The political left naturally leans into cosmopolitanism, which is essentially anti-patriotic, the political left claims that everything is equal or should be, so why would you remain patriotic about your tree if they are all the same?

[Wildtree]

Basically the entire liberal individualistic humanistic ideology is anti-patriotism and we see it more and more.

Again, you mistake Patriotism with Nationalism.
Liberalism opposes Nationalism, but has no problem with patriotism.

The core of that ideology is to !liberate! a human being from any kind of social identity ( religious, national, ethnic, sexual, gender ( the last trend)

And what have all these things to do with patriotism? Nothing.. They can all be very much patriotic.

I soon expect you guys to start talking about mixing with animals, why not, its a personal matter!

No, it's a scientific matter, and actually already worked on. But that would be subject to another topic altogether.

[Machismo]

Patriotism isn't bad. Anyone that has ever cheered for their teams at a World games or Olympics has shown patriotism.

Isolationism is what is bad.

I think patriotism becomes bad, when it is used to justify the taking of someone else's freedom. Unfortunately, that happens all too often in my country.

[Kokolums]

People always need something to feel good about, and when you're one of those people that doesn't have a whole lot to be happy about otherwise, a bit of national pride can help you stay productive and motivated, and governments have certainly managed to use this sentiment quite effectively over the centuries. However, sort of like religious faith, it is sort of fundamentally bullshit at its core, which everyone more or less realizes but which we can't do anything about cause it's sometimes better to believe the comforting lie than face the harsh reality.

The biggest problem with humanity is we're corrupt liars and most of the time we are comfortable with it.

I think part of the reason people hold scientists up as a shining example of humanity is that people like to think science is rational and above the everyday lying, bluffing, posturing, gossiping that goes on everywhere else.

[Wildtree]

so why would you remain patriotic about your tree if they are all the same?

Ever paid attention to whats going on, at say sports events? How the fans of a team are dressed? All pretty much the same, right?
And they are extremely patriotic towards their team... Now, don't try telling us that all sport fans are non-liberals lol

You are missing the mark.

[Deleted]

I don''t know if I can ever really comprehend the feeling of being patriotic. As a Dutchman, such a thing is nonexistent for me.

I guess it comes in handy when you want to rally your people behind a certain cause or prep them for a war?

[Wildtree]

I think patriotism becomes bad, when it is used to justify the taking of someone else's freedom. Unfortunately, that happens all too often in my country.

What you describe is when patriotism becomes nationalism

[Wyrt]

Nationalism generally doesn't lead good places.