Destiny: Illidan and Azshara

[Wildmoon]

You are missing the part where I was trying to judge her by contemporary standards. She was "THE QUEEN" , if she decided that the well is only for the highborne, it was her right as the damn owner of the thing. I am not saying she is mother Theresa, I'm just trying to say we can't call her "evil" just because she ruled the way she wanted to. Now I realize after the burning legion enters the scene, things spiral out of control, but up until that point she wasn't being intentionally cruel or making purposely bad decisions to hurt her people. She was exercising her power as the ruler of the elves. I don't really understand the impact cutting the people from the well part also, does elves need to be in the physical presence of the well periodically? does the chronicles address that at any point, cause that would mean elves can't basically travel too far from their land at any point in history until the sundering, which makes no sense.

Being king or queen does not exclude you from moral standard. There were decent kings or queens in the past(at least not as crazy). She didn't intentionally hurt her people before because she didn't even care to. When they were in the way then she was completely fine with getting rid of them. That was evil. If she was not evil, she would not let the legion prey on her people in the first place.

Cutting her people from the well made her people weaker thus much more weaker of a force against the demon.

[ravenmoon]

I feel a lot of people aren't taking Azsahara or the night elves seriously enough to think on this properly. You don't get to be so adored and empress of such a distinguished group of people described as benevolent and highly intelligent without being exceptional in both those arenas and then some. So far all i've heard is basically a description of what Azshara has become, but know intuining about how she must have been like to get to that level.

To trivialize it or reduce it to nothing remarkable, is also to triviliaze the entire race and diminish their accomplishments are level they were elevated too at the height of their predominance on Azeroth. A grand tale of such huge proportions demands quite the story to weave of how a group that was like THAT, could become like this .. and the woman at the heart of it, that made the world dance to her tune.

I can assure you, it won't be that simple.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I feel a lot of people aren't taking Azsahara or the night elves seriously enough to think on this properly. You don't get to be so adored and empress of such a distinguished group of people described as benevolent and highly intelligent without being exceptional in both those arenas and then some. So far all i've heard is basically a description of what Azshara has become, but know intuining about how she must have been like to get to that level.

To trivialize it or reduce it to nothing remarkable, is also to triviliaze the entire race and diminish their accomplishments are level they were elevated too at the height of their predominance on Azeroth. A grand tale of such huge proportions demands quite the story to weave of how a group that was like THAT, could become like this .. and the woman at the heart of it, that made the world dance to her tune.

I can assure you, it won't be that simple.

I feel that once again you are getting "high" off your ideas on night elves. Nothing ever showed any of these connections and as another said, amber eyes was changed to druidic potential. Azshara never was shown to be anything other than a arrogant tyrant. Her legacy will always be almost getting Azeroth destroyed.

[Aucald]

I feel a lot of people aren't taking Azsahara or the night elves seriously enough to think on this properly. You don't get to be so adored and empress of such a distinguished group of people described as benevolent and highly intelligent without being exceptional in both those arenas and then some. So far all i've heard is basically a description of what Azshara has become, but know intuining about how she must have been like to get to that level.

To trivialize it or reduce it to nothing remarkable, is also to triviliaze the entire race and diminish their accomplishments are level they were elevated too at the height of their predominance on Azeroth. A grand tale of such huge proportions demands quite the story to weave of how a group that was like THAT, could become like this .. and the woman at the heart of it, that made the world dance to her tune.

I can assure you, it won't be that simple.

Azshara was highly skilled at Arcane sorcery (highly valued among the ancient Night Elves), born under an auspicious sign with golden eyes, and used magic to enhance her beauty and charisma to almost preternatural levels. She was both profoundly vain and exceedingly manipulative, and used both her beauty and her intelligence to their fullest potential to position herself as the ruler of the ancient Night Elves and to ensure the loyalty of her Highborne courtiers as well as the military forces she commanded. Given the indolence of the ancient Night Elven empire at the time of Azshara's reign as well as the broad scope of its power - I doubt Azshara had to do much in the way of clawing or scraping for power. Her life was largely one of leisure and scholarly pursuit. The ancient Night Elves were established as the preeminent society of Azeroth at this point - they had few enemies and those who didn't coexist with their empire were marginal at best.

I am sure there were struggles and intrigues aplenty in the days of the forming of the Night Elven empire, but that was well before Azshara's time on the throne. She ruled during a time of peace and plenty for her people, until she brought it all tumbling down by her obsession with the Well of Eternity and the coming of the Burning Legion. *That* is her legacy.

[Friendlyimmolation]

To be fair, Azshara was never "evil" by contemporary standards. She was just a standard monarch. When you are the "queen", there is no morality issues that we are discussing right now. She was basically the queen of the planet as she knew it and done as she felt fit. There were no laws for her to obey or codes to follow. She wasn't cruel to her people or at least was never cruel for cruelty's sake. So I don't know where people are getting this strong "she is evil" statement? She wasn't directly involved with burning legions plan either, she was just experimenting with the well and wanted power, which was her right as the freaking ruler? After burning legion invaded, things go out of whack with her being drunk in power and blind to the real intentions of the legion, I mean she wanted to rule over azeroth not destroy it up until the very end.

Azshara wanted the world to be remade by Sargeras, that's evil. Before that she wanted to be the wife of Sargeras and she had no problem with demons wiping out the lower class elves. By every contemporary standard she would be a classic evil monarch.

[ravenmoon]

I feel that once again you are getting "high" off your ideas on night elves. Nothing ever showed any of these connections and as another said, amber eyes was changed to druidic potential. Azshara never was shown to be anything other than a arrogant tyrant.

maybe, but i still think people over here trivlalize the Nelves much more so than the lore presents them, - i mean do they stop to consider how they describe the night elves in pre-sundering times and try to imagine what that actually means, scope, magnitude etc? especially versus now? now an Azshara in that context setting. But maybe i think too much on these things, it is afterall whatever the developers write - but note that it is imagining what they write that brings me here.

[Friendlyimmolation]

maybe, but i still think people over here trivlalize the Nelves much more so than the lore presents them, - i mean do they stop to consider how they describe the night elves in pre-sundering times and try to imagine what that actually means, scope, magnitude etc? especially versus now? now an Azshara in that context setting. But maybe i think too much on these things, it is afterall whatever the developers write - but note that it is imagining what they write that brings me here.

if anything it makes Azshara worse, she had everything and she still was not satisfied, willing to blow up Azeroth because she thought she was better than the world.

[ravenmoon]

if anything it makes Azshara worse, she had everything and she still was not satisfied, willing to blow up Azeroth because she thought she was better than the world.

yeh, it does, I'm not doubting that, Azshara's case is not a good situation at all, and I certainly don't think the sun shines out of her "you know where" - this is a grand tale here, of a remarkable woman that has gone from one side to the other, there was an epicness to the ancient night elevs in their glory, which a tiny epoch of it remains in one of their prettiest cities. We haven't seen that side of Azshara yet, just the bad stuff

- - - Updated - - -

Azshara was highly skilled at Arcane sorcery (highly valued among the ancient Night Elves), born under an auspicious sign with golden eyes, and used magic to enhance her beauty and charisma to almost preternatural levels. She was both profoundly vain and exceedingly manipulative, and used both her beauty and her intelligence to their fullest potential to position herself as the ruler of the ancient Night Elves and to ensure the loyalty of her Highborne courtiers as well as the military forces she commanded. Given the indolence of the ancient Night Elven empire at the time of Azshara's reign as well as the broad scope of its power - I doubt Azshara had to do much in the way of clawing or scraping for power. Her life was largely one of leisure and scholarly pursuit. The ancient Night Elves were established as the preeminent society of Azeroth at this point - they had few enemies and those who didn't coexist with their empire were marginal at best.

I am sure there were struggles and intrigues aplenty in the days of the forming of the Night Elven empire, but that was well before Azshara's time on the throne. She ruled during a time of peace and plenty for her people, until she brought it all tumbling down by her obsession with the Well of Eternity and the coming of the Burning Legion. *That* is her legacy.

it's a solid reasoning, and believable from the side of her we are shown so far, but it could have started off in a very different place for and with her and led to that point.

[Evangeliste]

I understand the premise of potentially Azshara not being always evil. In theory, we assume she's 100% evil because of her agenda and what she has done to others which deem her evil from all our perspectives but Illidan was actually under that scope as well. Deemed evil and against us because well, let's face it he was acting malicious towards us and as shown killed/sacrificed a lot of people because "YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!". In the end, it's being slowly proven that Illidan sacrificed everything because he believed (and maybe guided by fate) that to mess up the Legion, he must become one and break it within. He betrayed a lot of people both good and bad for his agenda. Yes he's being purple Jesus but that's very short sighted, the dude was clearly trying to resolve the Legion conflict as far back as 10 years ago, we just assumed because we defeated him in Black Temple a evil was vanished, unfrotunately we need to the demon hunters to help us against the legion and now swapped them to the gooder side of things.

In short, things can be deceiving.

Azshara most likely started out to be nice and all, no-one is simply born evil. Kids have a lack of conviction and consequence so squishing a bug can be seen as evil but not exactly merit it so until it starts to spread to wider masses. That's how she probably came to rule, she was loved for those apparent good reasons that blinded people to basically ignore all the bad shit she was doing... Surprise surprise like Elisandre? Was deemed good and loved by her people and went naughty for the legion (but apparently to save her people because all other timelines showed the Nightborne destruction when they fought again Legion intrusion).

Even so, I'm not convinced with the golden eyes being druidism thing anymore, because they wouldn't make a massive sing and dance in it with Xe'ra and then Illidan who basically forsook that way of life but still kept his eyes? Malfurion wasn't really mentioned in the video because it was about Illidan but I dunno, they say "look at that one, it has golden eyes" rather than "they both have golden eyes!" with his model over the years lacking those golden eyes despite being a well-known druid. Also Cenarius who taught Malfurion and Illidan in slater models lacks those golden eyes even though he's like the be and all of druids, of course his older one does but the new ones don't. They wouldn't miss it considering the amount of feedback they got with not giving Azshara's her golden eyes back in Cataclysm and more people are stickler's for lore now... Again with Azshara, not a hint of druidism that we know of or explained either but remains with golden eyes (in elven form at least - as seen in the Farondis questline when she appears.)

[Wildmoon]

I understand the premise of potentially Azshara not being always evil. In theory, we assume she's 100% evil because of her agenda and what she has done to others which deem her evil from all our perspectives but Illidan was actually under that scope as well. Deemed evil and against us because well, let's face it he was acting malicious towards us and as shown killed/sacrificed a lot of people because "YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!". In the end, it's being slowly proven that Illidan sacrificed everything because he believed (and maybe guided by fate) that to mess up the Legion, he must become one and break it within. He betrayed a lot of people both good and bad for his agenda. Yes he's being purple Jesus but that's very short sighted, the dude was clearly trying to resolve the Legion conflict as far back as 10 years ago, we just assumed because we defeated him in Black Temple a evil was vanished, unfrotunately we need to the demon hunters to help us against the legion and now swapped them to the gooder side of things.

In short, things can be deceiving.

Azshara most likely started out to be nice and all, no-one is simply born evil. Kids have a lack of conviction and consequence so squishing a bug can be seen as evil but not exactly merit it so until it starts to spread to wider masses. That's how she probably came to rule, she was loved for those apparent good reasons that blinded people to basically ignore all the bad shit she was doing... Surprise surprise like Elisandre? Was deemed good and loved by her people and went naughty for the legion (but apparently to save her people because all other timelines showed the Nightborne destruction when they fought again Legion intrusion). Even so, iI'm not convinced with the golden eyes being druidism thing, because they wouldn't make a massive sing and dance in it with Xe'ra and then Illidan who basically forsook that way of life but still kept his eyes? Malfurion wasn't really mentioned in the video because it was about Illidan but I dunno, they say "look at that one, it has golden eyes" rather than "they both have golden eyes!" with his model over the years lacking those golden eyes despite being a well-known druid. Also Cenarius who taught Malfurion and Illidan in some models laxks golden eyes, mostly the recent one as well. They wouldn't miss it considering the amount of feedback they got with not giving Azshara's her golden eyes... Same with Azshara, not a hint of druidism that we know of or explained either but remains with golden eyes (in elven form at least - as seen in the Farondis questline when she appears.)

Except many people have already gained the amber eyes in lore even a tauren. Malfurion was not mentioned in that scenario because he was born with generic silver eyes. He gained both amber eyes and a small pair of antlers later in WotA. Malfurion's old model had golden eyes. His new model has emerald eyes for whatever reason. Also Illidan did not actually sacrifice anything up until the fight at the black temple where he bought time for his demon hunters.

[Evangeliste]

Except many people have already gained the amber eyes in lore even a tauren. Malfurion was not mentioned in that scenario because he was born with generic silver eyes. He gained both amber eyes and a small pair of antlers later in WotA. Malfurion's old model had golden eyes. His new model has emerald eyes for whatever reason. Also Illidan did not actually sacrifice anything up until the fight at the black temple where he bought time for his demon hunters.

Illidan sacrificed other arcane mages as seen in the questline to rid Black Rook Hold to rid of the Legion, gave up his heritage to become a demon hunter and shunned by elves... Sacrificed a lot more than being defeated in Black Temple... Like really. The word sacrifice here is on a lot more contexts than just Black Temple. He was a demon hunter long before that introduction into the game as a raid boss. I'm surprised you don't consider what he has done that went against what he was raised up on as not a sacrificial effect if you know older lore.

Like I said the Taurens do have it but to be honest, Cenarius and Malfurion (notably Malfurion had non-golden eyes since Cataclysm but Azshara has them still but not a druid. I haven't seen you explain that one because you can't, thanks to Blizzard of course which is why it is far from making sense.

[ravenmoon]

If power corrupts in the case of Azshara, you have to have been uncorrupted at some point. EVer been a celebrity before? superstar level? that amount of attention and adulation is more addictive than crack... and in time many decent people have become conceited, vain and superflouous not counting those who were already so.

It takes immense level-headedness to stay grounded with all that attention and is a sign of great power. Doing it for a few weeks or months is one thing but then for years? it is remarkable to maintain graceful composure for a long time, but when you add centuries to it stretching into millennia then it becomes something else, added to it you getting more powerful and powerful as time goes by expanding your knowledge but with no accountability , i think even the best people can be corrupted this way.

Perhaps azshara alone is not to blame for where she is, her people adored her, and it was like a drug to her I can imagine. I can imagine an alternate scenario where Azshara's desired to be adored pushes her to do more amazing works driving her past safe levels of arcane use, and being too arrogant and confident to feel she coudln't solve any malady. Ofc the more of the well work she continues, the more this addiction problem goes which also plays on the psychie and mind.

[Wildmoon]

Illidan sacrificed other arcane mages as seen in the questline to rid Black Rook Hold to rid of the Legion, gave up his heritage to become a demon hunter and shunned by elves... Sacrificed a lot more than being defeated in Black Temple... Like really. The word sacrifice here is on a lot more contexts than just Black Temple. He was a demon hunter long before that introduction into the game as a raid boss. I'm surprised you don't consider what he has done that went against what he was raised up on as not a sacrificial effect if you know older lore.

Like I said the Taurens do have it but to be honest, Cenarius and Malfurion (notably Malfurion had non-golden eyes since Cataclysm but Azshara has them still but not a druid. I haven't seen you explain that one because you can't, thanks to Blizzard of course which is why it is far from making sense.

He didn't sacrifice anything if you are talknig about his eyes. Sargeras forced it on him. Sacrificing other's lives hardly count. There was no specific time stated when Illidan started becoming a DH but he was a mage before he was dh. Illidan of WotA was not a man who sacrificed. He was a man who sought recognition for himself. The very reason he pretended to join the legion was because he was salty about his brother. He hoped to gain power that was greater than Malfurion's.

I see you haven't read WotA and Stormrage at all. Malfurion gained amber eyes in WotA. Broll did in Stormrage.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Pss2FTk7CZ...511_131857.jpg

Also, his cata model had golden eyes. they were glowing so they were hard to see.

[ravenmoon]

Illidan sacrificed other arcane mages as seen in the questline to rid Black Rook Hold to rid of the Legion, gave up his heritage to become a demon hunter and shunned by elves... Sacrificed a lot more than being defeated in Black Temple... Like really. The word sacrifice here is on a lot more contexts than just Black Temple. He was a demon hunter long before that introduction into the game as a raid boss. I'm surprised you don't consider what he has done that went against what he was raised up on as not a sacrificial effect if you know older lore.

Like I said the Taurens do have it but to be honest, Cenarius and Malfurion (notably Malfurion had non-golden eyes since Cataclysm but Azshara has them still but not a druid. I haven't seen you explain that one because you can't, thanks to Blizzard of course which is why it is far from making sense.

the thing is, there could be more than one cause of golden eyes. but i think personally its more a lore change because of in-game stuff. Male night elves were given golden eyes a throwback to the lore.. the premise is that you as a hero are unique.. you the play are the one afterall destined to free outland, end the lich king, end death wing and the twilight hammer cult, save Pandaria, save Draenor, defeat 2 old gods, an evil black flight, the Sha, liberate trapped titan keepers - that's a super-extraordinary destiny - and as a night elf, your eyes would be golden. I think silver was kept on females because that's the standard colour - remember they even said that golden eyes are still rare, but have been showing up more frequently - i think character creation also was not expanded enough to toggle your eye colour and they just made everything lore.

[Evangeliste]

He didn't sacrifice anything if you are talknig about his eyes. Sargeras forced it on him. Sacrificing other's lives hardly count. There was no specific time stated when Illidan started becoming a DH but he was a mage before he was dh.

I see you haven't read WotA and Stormrage at all. Malfurion gained amber eyes in WotA. Broll did in Stormrage.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Pss2FTk7CZ...511_131857.jpg

Also, his cata model had golden eyes. they were glowing so they were hard to see.

His golden eyes didn't happen because of him sacrificing anything. They don't come because of that, he was born of it as you know. My point of saying about his eyes was because he isn't a druid but in fact did other things (and far worse stuff that goes against druidism) that strayed from the lore that is intended to go with golden eyes. So I don't get why you're telling me this. It still doesn't explain again why Azshara has golden eyes and not a druid herself too same like Illidan who did everything else but druidism which is the canon for golden eyes...

- - - Updated - - -

the thing is, there could be more than one cause of golden eyes. but i think personally its more a lore change because of in-game stuff. Male night elves were given golden eyes a throwback to the lore.. the premise is that you as a hero are unique.. you the play are the one afterall destined to free outland, end the lich king, end death wing and the twilight hammer cult, save Pandaria, save Draenor, defeat 2 old gods, an evil black flight, the Sha, liberate trapped titan keepers - that's a super-extraordinary destiny - and as a night elf, your eyes would be golden. I think silver was kept on females because that's the standard colour - remember they even said that golden eyes are still rare, but have been showing up more frequently - i think character creation also was not expanded enough to toggle your eye colour and they just made everything lore.

I think there might be more to the golden eyes than they want to let on you know? They have stepped away from the druid thing in the Legion premise (whether they go back to the golden eyes and druidism is another story however) but it's odd to me that a lot of in-game stuff and not much outside it too for the moment refers to that lore, it doesn't marry up still. Azshara is female with golden eyes. There is absolutely nothing on her reason to have them if the lore states otherwise when she was tanked up on Arcane.

Unless... Well Elune. I thought the moon with Ysera may be Elune and all. Reminds me of the idea of the whole nascent titan and world souls. Might have something to do with it?

[Wildmoon]

His golden eyes didn't happen because of him sacrificing anything. They don't come because of that, he was born of it as you know. My point of saying about his eyes was because he isn't a druid but in fact did other things (and far worse stuff that goes against druidism) that strayed from the lore that is intended to go with golden eyes. So I don't get why you're telling me this. It still doesn't explain again why Azshara has golden eyes and not a druid herself too same like Illidan who did everything else but druidism which is the canon for golden eyes...

My point about his sacrifices does not have anything to do with his eyes. They are 2 separate points. Amber eyes are the sign of druidic potential. They do not make you a druid. It means that both Illidan and Azshara had druidic potential in them. Druids who have achieved certain level of power will also gain the eyes.

[Evangeliste]

My point about his sacrifices does not have anything to do with his eyes. They are 2 separate points. Amber eyes are the sign of druidic potential. They do not make you a druid. It means that both Illidan and Azshara had druidic potential in them. Druids who have achieved certain level of power will also gain the eyes.

You even quoted me saying the same thing about golden eyes is not about sacrificing.

[Mehrunes]

Out of all arguments you could use to argue that Xe'ra isn't KJ you went with her telling us that Titans are dead, when we first heard that from a Nathrezim near the Illidari outpost in Azsuna? I'm not arguing it is KJ, but you chose the weakest possibly argument here.

[Wildmoon]

You even quoted me saying the same thing about golden eyes is not about sacrificing.

I have no idea why are you mixing it up. You are rejecting the explanation behind amber eyes. I gave you canon. That's what it's all about.

[Evangeliste]

I have no idea why are you mixing it up. You are rejecting the explanation behind amber eyes. I gave you canon. That's what it's all about.

I didn't reject it I just said time and time again that it makes no sense that's not exactly wholly saying I object, it's not saying I am mixing them up eityher. Still when you have two people who for years stepped away from that druidic potential and dabbled in magics away from Nature and Life (including killing people and lavishing in other things that basically goes against druidism. If you check the elemental table put in the Chronicles it shows that Life and Nature magic schools are direct opposites to Death, Decay and other magics near those schools) and still kept golden eyes. From birth. If you think about it logically it says you can earn golden eyes from being a druid of certain level, therefore if you can earn it as well it means it should be able to disappear right?

As I said, it isn't explained why they have still kept it after years of not even bothering with druidism in the slightest.