What would be so bad about enabling LFR functionality for other difficulties?

[Alydael]

A "heroic" version of LFR? Do you mean allowing queuable for Normal and Heroic or another raid difficulty?



I am not sure what you are saying. Sounds like you are contradicting yourself.



Oh. I know there is a big difference between a pre-made group and queuable. The pre-made group usually requires all kind of prerequisites to join. Like way above minimum item level. ATOC. Achievements, must know fights, must be this and that. As I said earlier.

Yeah, if you read the OP this whole thread is about adding an "queable" version of norm and heroic raids. I am for it, but I think there will be a lot of wiping. I still think Blizzard should just do it and make it as a "at your own risk" type of thing. Not sure what you are saying?

[ls-]

Majority of people who run LFR isn't expecting to face any challenge there.

Queueable PvE content in WoW is accessible and easy, all participants are pretty much destined to succeed. If people can't succeed in queueable content, they start whining and asking for nerfs (cata launch heroics, LFR archi in WoD, etc), no one is going to git gud, majority of people doesn't care about getting better at this game, they just stop trying or even quit.

[Deleted]

I think you will find that such a group will be difficult to run. Heroic especially, will wipe you if you don't do the mechanics. Unless you want to spend days wiping until you get a full clear, i don't think what you're saying is true or practical.

[Sansnom]

If people can't succeed in queueable content, they start whining and asking for nerfs (cata launch heroics, LFR archi in WoD, etc),

Does that really happen? People push this about as if it is very common. Not saying there are no people asking for nerf or saying it is overtuned. That happened outside of LFR as well.

But is there really that many people complaining or the nerf applied because Blizzard was seeing the success vs failure rate.

Different people complain about different complain things. Just because something did change does not imply it was always due to the complaints associated with it.

[Qnubi]

I never understood the difference between manually pick and choose people from a list with little to no knowledge how they play or get randomly assigned people from a tool. The only difference is, the one where I manually have to pick some player requires me to waste time while the automatic feature would save me time. Once I am in an mythic dungeon or normal raid and see ones performance and its bad I will need to kick him and get a replacement. Which, again, is faster with an automatic tool instead of manually looking for a replacement and THEN summon as well.

I will never, ever, get it. Why people are against automatic assignment and rather waste time to manually pick randoms. Do they feel like they have control over it? You don't, insanedpsdk can be bad or good regardless if you picked him yourself or got him from a tool. But whatever, probably some kind of placebo or illusion effect.

[ls-]

Does that really happen? People push this about as if it is very common. Not saying there are no people asking for nerf or saying it is overtuned. That happened outside of LFR as well.

But is there really that many people complaining or the nerf applied because Blizzard was seeing the success vs failure rate.

Different people complain about different complain things. Just because something did change does not imply it was always due to the complaints associated with it.

It doesn, and it actually did, that's why I mentioned few examples in parenthesis.

Original Cata heroics were too difficult for majority of their target audience, Blizz nerfed them to laughable state, same happened to original LFR Archi. I've experience both nerfs, Archi went from LFR god to target dummy

Yes, they see both whine written feedback and success rates in their stats. Queueable content is meant to be the content w/ high (nearly 100%) success rate, if success rates are low, Blizz usually nerfs the content in question. That's one of few reasons why LFR is referred as a "Tourist Mode", it isn't there to challenge players, it's there to show the story, provide access to important quest drops, etc.

In one of older interviews Blizz designers stated that one of their biggest mistake of the past was them thinking that people would git gud step up to a challenge, but that's proven to be wrong. People do not, people do only rewarding content they're comfortable to do. Few people do challenging things, even fewer people do challenging and not so rewarding content.

[glowpipe]

There is simply NO way in hell that a random groupfinder group would be able to kill ANYTHING other than mayby skorpy on heroic. no way in million years would a group like that be able to defeat botanist heroic. Without voice coms and shit.

Also another flaw to your plan.

Underperformers. How to deal with them ? ilvl 900 doesnt automatically equal good dps. Good players.
So.. Do we kick them ? Ok then. We kick them. Now, what if there is 2 or 3 underperforming ?
By a vote ? what if the underperfming dude is protected by 5 friends ? which vote no ? then what ?
Ok then. so we can't have vote where people can say no. And then how many can we kick at a time ? 2-3-8 ? How do we stop it from being abused. People being kicked because others find it fun ? What if the underperfmer got bad dps cause he uses his utility to keep 3 other dps alive ? How will someone like op who probably only use dps meters to judge, deal with that ?

This is why this will never work in heroic or normal. And you even had the nerves of saying mythic...

[Smauldy]

Complete proving grounds gold and set the ilvl requirements equal to or very slightly below the gear levels of drops and normal would be acceptable for queuing.

Heroic, no.

[Coffeexbean]

Both normal and HC are already extremely easy, even if you've never done them before you can put a group in LFG, set insane requirements and get carried. If the group wipes it's okay, you can always keep inviting more zerglings until they kill the bosses for you.

"But omg they're gonna wipe and it will be a horrible experience!"

No they are not, set ilevel requirements to 880, 890, whatever and they will do just fine. You can easily outgear both those modes just by running WQs and LFR and getting sick titanforged upgrades.

"But omg skill > gear!"

If you are not a mythic raider, this statement hasn't been true for many years now. What's the point of keeping overgeared casuals fermenting in LFR when they could be trying harder bosses and maybe even improving their skills?

"but this will destroy casual guilds!"

It already has, check any realm and you'll be hard-pressed to find a non-mythic raiding guild. Actually if anything, this will help mythic guilds as they'll have more relatively well-geared people to recruit.

Hell you could even enable LFR for mythic and people would still kill bosses. Sure, mythic Skorpyron would destroy them at first, but in a few weeks only the most dedicated would still be attempting him and they might even improve to the point they're able to get a kill.

"But omg no communication!"

Simple, Blizzard uses their funds to create an in-house voicecom and integrate it into the game.

This is coming from a mythic raider who wants to hit queue button and faceroll normal and heroic instead of applying to dozens of groups in LFG.

I wouldnt mind but I don't want to have to outgear the content before I do it thats no fun

[Cannibalus]

Both normal and HC are already extremely easy, even if you've never done them before you can put a group in LFG, set insane requirements and get carried. If the group wipes it's okay, you can always keep inviting more zerglings until they kill the bosses for you.

"But omg they're gonna wipe and it will be a horrible experience!"

No they are not, set ilevel requirements to 880, 890, whatever and they will do just fine. You can easily outgear both those modes just by running WQs and LFR and getting sick titanforged upgrades.

"But omg skill > gear!"

If you are not a mythic raider, this statement hasn't been true for many years now. What's the point of keeping overgeared casuals fermenting in LFR when they could be trying harder bosses and maybe even improving their skills?

"but this will destroy casual guilds!"

It already has, check any realm and you'll be hard-pressed to find a non-mythic raiding guild. Actually if anything, this will help mythic guilds as they'll have more relatively well-geared people to recruit.

Hell you could even enable LFR for mythic and people would still kill bosses. Sure, mythic Skorpyron would destroy them at first, but in a few weeks only the most dedicated would still be attempting him and they might even improve to the point they're able to get a kill.

"But omg no communication!"

Simple, Blizzard uses their funds to create an in-house voicecom and integrate it into the game.

This is coming from a mythic raider who wants to hit queue button and faceroll normal and heroic instead of applying to dozens of groups in LFG.

Last night, so like approx 10 hours ago i spent 3-4 hours wiping on Gul'dan HC because of individual mistakes that wiped the raid. Even with voice comm, even telling people what to do, even having a vocal raid leader (at some point like 10-12 out of 25 of us were on Discord), people still failed. Melee were constantly going through the active tank to reach various locations, getting cleaved, placing of the firepatches was awful each pull, not to mention people dying to phase 1 even. We went through tens of people that we kept kicking or that kept leaving and they all had "curve" and 905+ ilvl. So you're telling me that it's achievable through an LFR-like tool? You're more delusional than a teen high on bath salt sitting naked in an intersection in November taking selfies of himself while fapping and imagining that people would actually think that's cool.

[Spiral Mage]

The OP seems -very- out of touch with the player base, as many of this statements suggest.

Since it's fairly logical why enabling auto-queuing for any other difficulty would just result in total failure.
It always has in the past, and people aren't gettin' any smarter these days, infact, they're getting worse.

So why would, with people gettin' dumber, putting this in the game make any sense at all?

You're more delusional than a teen high on bath salt sitting naked in an intersection in November taking selfies of himself while fapping and imagining that people would actually think that's cool.

Damn, I think that should be my signature, that's freakin' amazing.

[Deleted]

The community has willingly convinced itself that difficulties above LFR/current 5 man heroic are impossible to tackle with PUGs. It's more convenient than being willing to budge an inch and being truly constructive instead of labeling anything that doesn't share one's own approach as unconstructive.

Through this attitude, the initial claim becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

No, passed lfr's have shown that a bit harder content in lfr just doesnt work, garalon, durumu and general nazgrim are waving at you and made it clear to most that coordinated fights just dont work well

[potis]

Both normal and HC are already extremely easy, even if you've never done them before you can put a group in LFG, set insane requirements and get carried. If the group wipes it's okay, you can always keep inviting more zerglings until they kill the bosses for you.

"But omg they're gonna wipe and it will be a horrible experience!"

No they are not, set ilevel requirements to 880, 890, whatever and they will do just fine. You can easily outgear both those modes just by running WQs and LFR and getting sick titanforged upgrades.

"But omg skill > gear!"

If you are not a mythic raider, this statement hasn't been true for many years now. What's the point of keeping overgeared casuals fermenting in LFR when they could be trying harder bosses and maybe even improving their skills?

"but this will destroy casual guilds!"

It already has, check any realm and you'll be hard-pressed to find a non-mythic raiding guild. Actually if anything, this will help mythic guilds as they'll have more relatively well-geared people to recruit.

Hell you could even enable LFR for mythic and people would still kill bosses. Sure, mythic Skorpyron would destroy them at first, but in a few weeks only the most dedicated would still be attempting him and they might even improve to the point they're able to get a kill.

"But omg no communication!"

Simple, Blizzard uses their funds to create an in-house voicecom and integrate it into the game.

This is coming from a mythic raider who wants to hit queue button and faceroll normal and heroic instead of applying to dozens of groups in LFG.

You are obviously playing a different game, as someone mentioned you are insanely out of touch with the actual game if you believe that.

Even the worst HC pugger is around 10000% better than the average LFR raider.

Whether this better, is gear, skill, mindset, or time or whatever else its there.

Pure LFR players could never clear even half of normal NH where the bosses are literally pointless free loot pinatas.

Hell, they couldnt clear half of LFR in its certain form unless carried by Legendary RNG chasers.

[Deleted]

Ok but why would you want LFR to all difficulties?

You can already use pre-made tool

EN normal, EN heroic, few EN mythics
ToV normal/Heroic
NH Normal and even Heroic pugs are totally normal and theres loads of them.

Seriously, please explain how applying to these is hard? If you cant be arsed to browse premade tool, you dont deserve those groups.
I know it sounds harsh, but thats the most simple thing you can do.

Plus if it ever would be applied to all difficulties it would pretty much kill guilds that only do heroic content.which is a lot of playerbase.
It would be laughable to try recruiting as guild that says they have fully cleared HC NH.

Plus with titanforging in game, gear levels dont really mean jack. My alt is 890 ilvl because lucky weekly cache *forges and 2 legendaries. Ive literally only done EN HC on that char. Havent even cleared NH normal.
ANd I can say, I dont even know how to fully play my alt to max. I wouldnt allow myself to join NH HC. Unless I can get carried and be "dps and chill".

[Deleted]

I never understood the difference between manually pick and choose people from a list with little to no knowledge how they play or get randomly assigned people from a tool. The only difference is, the one where I manually have to pick some player requires me to waste time while the automatic feature would save me time. Once I am in an mythic dungeon or normal raid and see ones performance and its bad I will need to kick him and get a replacement. Which, again, is faster with an automatic tool instead of manually looking for a replacement and THEN summon as well.

I will never, ever, get it. Why people are against automatic assignment and rather waste time to manually pick randoms. Do they feel like they have control over it? You don't, insanedpsdk can be bad or good regardless if you picked him yourself or got him from a tool. But whatever, probably some kind of placebo or illusion effect.

Some posters above me already outlined some of it, but there are several factors:

- There is an initial investment in actively looking for and applying to groups versus just queuing. In general, someone consciously saying "I want ot o do a raid now for the next (2-3) hour(s)" will be more invested and ready to contribute as best as he can than someone who is doing whatever activity and just queuing on the side to "maybe kill a couple of bosses if the queue pops". The fact that I can "just queue" for it already makes it much more likely that I won't try as hard or long as I would if I made a conscious decision to do something with someone else.

- In a queue-system, you would have to deal with a majority of players bringing the absolute minimum of the requirements (ilevel, ap power or whatever it may be for a "heroic LFR"). Why? Because good and/or well geared players would just use the same 890+ groups they are using now. Just imagine for a second how bad LFR-raids would be if you removed all players above ilevel 860 - it is already slow and tedious with the usual 2-3 mythic raiders and 5-8 "decent" players in there. The only saving grace in LFR is that it is so hard to fail. That would not be the case for a heroic (or even normal) LFR.

- While it is true that you rarely can be certain how good a player really is, it is wrong to assume that the skill level of players that I can chose from a list is as random as in a queue system. Why? Because I can look at their Armory, wowprogress etc. and even if there are bad players that have killed heroic/mythic bosses, completed high M+ dungeons in time or have great gear, in general a player with more of those boxes checked will at least be more experienced and thus, on average, better than "random Joe with the minimum ilevel to queue".

There are others, but these are the main factors.

[ComputerNerd]

We had the same argument about queeble mythic dungeons months ago. It is simply impossible. I don't blame you for not seeing this, it took Blizzard several years to understand that matchmake instance must be easy for intended item level.

1)There is no leader in matchmaked group, person that pick players looking at:

a) their gear (and he has ability to look at their actual equipped gear, not only item level in bags)
b) team composition - matchmake only recognize tank/heal/dps
c) their experience. you must follow basic mechanics, even if you massively outgear the content, in organized group leader know that group will stick together after wipe and learn the tactic eventually, that's why in group finder leaders only accept people with Curve - they know that pug usually collapse after wipe, so he must to be sure that group already know how to beat boss
d) finally, leader can look at everyone performance and kick people that are trolling or simply are unable to beat content; it's brutal, but sometimes it's the only option.

If people actually did that, instead of simply judging item level then there would be less people who prefer LFR despite having other options.
Players are what make manual groups unattractive, not queues.
Look at how players are judged in the manual groups, by the same quick shortcuts that you claim that us using LFR are favouring because we are lazy.

We used to talk to people, and had less problems.
Now we take ever more shortcuts, and blame everyone and everything else when simplistic measures fail to tell you anything.

[Osmeric]

LFR-like groups would have a hard time in any more difficult content. They'd have to filter and purge players who can't cut it. And if they're going to do that, they might as well just form manually.