Ele needs a big change

[Deleted]

786k rogue, 86%..

I have a shocking newsflash for you 700k=/=786k

a 780-790k parse for an ele shaman on krosus is... wait for it TOP 10 world.
not to mention that Krosus is a pretty shitty encounter to base general melee vs caster imabalance in nighthold on, I was just responding to an ignorant dude trying to justify that this spec is just fine on single target.
There are far worse encounters for immobile casters like trillax or guldan, there the difference between a properly played melee and ele shaman goes from 100k to 200-250k, how is that acceptable is beyond me.

Blizzard needs to understand that if they decide to prune any ability to cast on the move from most ranged, they can not proceed and pile tons of mechanics forcing the said players to clip every 3rd cast. Not only is it imbalanced and unfair, it is the exact OPPOSITE of fun gameplay, which at its base is what this game should be about.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

They've already said they're intentionally making melee do more DPS because they're hit harder when they have to move away from the boss. Most ranged can at least throw some instant casts at the boss, but melee classes have ranged abilities that only do a token amount of damage. It stands to reason that on a standard fight they should be doing the same amount, since some mechanic will force them to leave the boss eventually. Krosus is different in that it's actually the ranged that have to move too far away, and that's fine. Not every class needs to do the same amount of damage on every fight. You'll beat them somewhere else.

[Kralljin]

They've already said they're intentionally making melee do more DPS because they're hit harder when they have to move away from the boss. Most ranged can at least throw some instant casts at the boss, but melee classes have ranged abilities that only do a token amount of damage.

The main issue here is that Nighthold has multiple bosses that are extremely melee friendly.

The thing is, Blizzard chose the most idiotic way, at least in my opinion, to make Bosses melee friendly - they never get targetted by certain abilities.

Obviously, some abilities would really wreck in a hard way if they can target melee, but in Nighthold they just overdid it.

From Mark of Frost, Brand of Argus to the entire Phase one of Gul'dan Mythic, on a lot of fights melees can just stick on the boss and ignore / handle mechanics with ease.

Whereas Ranged constantly need to watch their ass for any mechanic and react properly to it, that just punishes immobile Ranged Dps even further.

They really need to decide where they want to go with their encounter design because a quite few ranged specs simply aren't designed to properly handle that amount of movement, so they should really consider to design fights more ranged friendly again or give ranged more movement abilities to keep up.

Because Gul'dan Mythic Phase 1 is the pinnacle of this design, only bring enough ranged to handle the mechanics properly, fill up with many melees as possible to kill the boss.

The thing with melees having an easier job on encounters isn't new, it's new that melee Dps is that superior to ranged dps.

[freddy090909]

The thing with melees having an easier job on encounters isn't new, it's new that melee Dps is that superior to ranged dps.

This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter.

I'm completely fine with melee being hit with fewer mechanics (getting mechanics that would effectively make them just move away and do nothing for a few seconds isn't fun for anyone) - but, they should not be given naturally more damage.

If anything, under that design, ranged should be given the higher patchwerk, because having to handle mechanics will reduce our damage (while melee are avoiding a good chunk of them). Or, just make ranged specs hyper-mobile so that we won't be losing much if anything as we are forced to move.

[whyabadi]

Totem Mastery needs to go. That is all from my side.

[gobio]

I just don't understand why bother defending or even talking about dps balance between range/melee when BM hunter exist.

Balance druid, shaman, and other casters are planning their cast 4-5 second ahead, just to move a step with their instant cast in their rotation, when a bm hunter jumping around you like a moron the whole fight with ZERO dps lost while checking phone message in the meantime when he is not jumping. And we are here talking about melee / range lost of dps based on mechanics?

[effs]

3. AOE nerf and make Single dps buff.

I'd rather be an AoE/cleave machine than be at the top of single target. There are few single target fights anyway. M+ favours aoe, a lot of fights in Nighthold are cleave/multi target.

Totem Mastery needs to go. That is all from my side.

Or just buff Earthen Rage and Path of Flame somehow.

[Kralljin]

Totem Mastery needs to go. That is all from my side.

I'm fine with Totemic Mastery, but Earthen Rage needs to pick up the slack.

I mean seriously, even on high movement encounters is Talent is not a major dps increase.

Earthen Rage should be like a decent talent on movement heavy fights, currently it's just a bit better than TM, and that's only on the IF build.

Balance druid, shaman, and other casters are planning their cast 4-5 second ahead, just to move a step with their instant cast in their rotation, when a bm hunter jumping around you like a moron the whole fight with ZERO dps lost while checking phone message in the meantime when he is not jumping. And we are here talking about melee / range lost of dps based on mechanics?

As long as BM Hunter doesn't reach HFC MM Hunter levels, they can have their unique spot.

[Trend]

I just don't understand why bother defending or even talking about dps balance between range/melee when BM hunter exist.

Balance druid, shaman, and other casters are planning their cast 4-5 second ahead, just to move a step with their instant cast in their rotation, when a bm hunter jumping around you like a moron the whole fight with ZERO dps lost while checking phone message in the meantime when he is not jumping. And we are here talking about melee / range lost of dps based on mechanics?

I hope you are just clowning in an obtuse manner.

If not, you may want to consider that even with that movement advantage, the reality is that BM is quite bottom in DPS. If you look at mythic NH and start at the highest percentiles and work your way down, BM is only sometimes able to beat MM and/or balance until you get all the way down to 40th percentile. And in terms of playstyle, yeah, they're jumping around like morons because they have nothing to do during the 50% of the encounter they're focus starved. The grass is always greener on the other side bro.

So if you were trying to be funny, congrats. Otherwise, ouch.

[gobio]

I hope you are just clowning in an obtuse manner.

If not, you may want to consider that even with that movement advantage, the reality is that BM is quite bottom in DPS. If you look at mythic NH and start at the highest percentiles and work your way down, BM is only sometimes able to beat MM and/or balance until you get all the way down to 40th percentile. And in terms of playstyle, yeah, they're jumping around like morons because they have nothing to do during the 50% of the encounter they're focus starved. The grass is always greener on the other side bro.

So if you were trying to be funny, congrats. Otherwise, ouch.

1) People (not me) are saying melee dps need or don’t need to dodge X% of mechanic and range dps need or don’t need to dodge Y% of mechanic, which justified Z% of dps variation.
2) I disagree. And pointed out there is a class called BM hunter which even you agreed does not need to handle mechanics as much.
3) My point, which you mocked for no reason, is when BLIZZARD clearly designed a class that is “balanced” around not having to do much mechanics, why talk about melee / range dps variation due to mechanics in the first place?
4) I don’t give a damn how well or bad BM is doing, they are designed to not have to do as much mechanics. That is my only point.

By the way, learn to communicate with people. Or I won't even bother, and you can stay in your little bubble ouching people all day long by yourself.

[Coldfire989]

Are we really trying to compare number of melee and ranged? Good god people have you been playing this game for a month something? Blizzard always have melee with bigger numbers and easier time. Nothing new and this will never change.

[Gunwolf]

My opinion is a comparison with other specs. It does not mean that you spend a lot of time and are heavier than others and that spec is efficient.
Ascension is not unique compared to other classes. Just 3m cooldown for burst dps
(have many weakness. Unable to change target, Moving dealing impossible)
LR is special but only for AOE.

Ele is the worst spec in guldan. The reason is written in the text. See this log.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=1866
Heroic
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ount&boss=1866
Mythic

If your opinion is reasonable, ele is not the bottom line.

These results are so skewed.... u shouldn't use 99th percentile. Use the standard 75% or 80%, represents more of the average playerbase. Also... mythic logs are not very reliable, esp only guldan where there are 3....THREE parses total.... compare that to heroic with 11k parses. If you look at overall dps for all of NH:

Heroic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#difficulty=4
Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#


You will see that they are midpack.... which is totally fine. They do better on aoe/cleave fights... lower on single target. Meanwhile Enhance is basically the opposite. This is common for most classes/specs to have their niches.

Also.... if you look at mythic+ they do very well, one of the better specs to take with good damage and utility.

Here are the average rankings for M+15 speed: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/9#keystone=15
and M+15 damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=15&metric=dps


As you will see, Elemental is like top third here. So they are far from bad... they are fine. Plus they are fun to play and have some actual spec diversity. I'm sure there is stuff that can be improved, but its not a spec you wouldn't bring to mythic raids or anything.

[Shamroock]

7.2 traits might help. Improved effectiveness of Elemental Focus and a larger Maelstrom pool means harder hitting ES. The golden trait just adds to our AoE which didn't need help at all...

[Trend]

1) People (not me) are saying melee dps need or don’t need to dodge X% of mechanic and range dps need or don’t need to dodge Y% of mechanic, which justified Z% of dps variation.
2) I disagree. And pointed out there is a class called BM hunter which even you agreed does not need to handle mechanics as much.
3) My point, which you mocked for no reason, is when BLIZZARD clearly designed a class that is “balanced” around not having to do much mechanics, why talk about melee / range dps variation due to mechanics in the first place?
4) I don’t give a damn how well or bad BM is doing, they are designed to not have to do as much mechanics. That is my only point.

By the way, learn to communicate with people. Or I won't even bother, and you can stay in your little bubble ouching people all day long by yourself.

Why are you so angry bro? Lighten up a bit, life is short.

The point about BM is that it really hasn't changed since vanilla in this respect. It has always been an easier spec to play and that has always come with the trade-off that the damage is pretty crap and for better players there isn't as much of an opportunity to play it at a high level. It's just very simple.

That goes hand in hand with the mechanics and in a way I think that is very good MMO design. In my opinion, some classes/specs should be harder to play and have a higher top end potential and some classes/specs should be easier to play and have a lower ceiling.

In any case, right now BM is pretty much garbage because it's boring to play and the damage is crap. So if you hold out BM as an example of some incredible unfairness that is just ruining your life, I'm going to disagree and point out that BM is pretty bad right now.

You had one good question: "why talk about melee / range dps variation due to mechanics in the first place?" My answer would be that it is a logical distinction because all the ranged classes except for one crap spec have the same issue that none of the melee classes have. Seems pretty straight-forward to me, but you can make your distinction however you want. I'm just going to disagree about BM being a good example of some kind of unfairness in its favor.

[Ele man]

These results are so skewed.... u shouldn't use 99th percentile. Use the standard 75% or 80%, represents more of the average playerbase. Also... mythic logs are not very reliable, esp only guldan where there are 3....THREE parses total.... compare that to heroic with 11k parses. If you look at overall dps for all of NH:

Heroic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#difficulty=4
Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#


You will see that they are midpack.... which is totally fine. They do better on aoe/cleave fights... lower on single target. Meanwhile Enhance is basically the opposite. This is common for most classes/specs to have their niches.

Also.... if you look at mythic+ they do very well, one of the better specs to take with good damage and utility.

Here are the average rankings for M+15 speed: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/9#keystone=15
and M+15 damage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=15&metric=dps


As you will see, Elemental is like top third here. So they are far from bad... they are fine. Plus they are fun to play and have some actual spec diversity. I'm sure there is stuff that can be improved, but its not a spec you wouldn't bring to mythic raids or anything.

I am talking about the final performance of that spec. So I used more than 99% stats.
Though I do not mean to despise, less than 90% of players are not able to reach their maximum.

Total statistics do not reflect reality. because Alurian and chronomatic anomaly, tichondrius are extremely favorable designs for ele and have taken a lot of gains in that overall statistic. So ele looks pretty good when viewed in full statistics.
So other problems are covered.. If such a battle came to Gul'dan, I would not write this. But that does not happen.

Raid Guilds with thought or other alternatives have already abandoned ele. That's why statistics are less. I am one of them.
Nonetheless, only those who did the ele have a log, so I do not doubt their skills.
There is no difference between heroic and myhic Gul'dan, but it is rather disadvantageous.

I know that the ele's utility is good in mythic+ dungeons. But most of those utilities are not good for raid.

If you want to contradict me, you will have to explain why so many ele's disappeared from the gul'dan's log. If it is not, I will be more right.

[Anawien]

It doesn't seem like blizzard is intending to boost ele shammys ST damage atm. New golden artifact trait? Another aoe increase. We lack ST damage. We lack mobility. I'd happily switch out some Aoe for ST damage.

[Deleted]

Blizzard's 'solution' is to shift half of your damage back to fire elemental, instead of you know... giving us actual ways to deal with high movement fights.

Ele shammy has no ways to spend globals on demand if forced to move. Flame shock is a refresh that has to meet conditions, everything else, apart from lava surge procs and earthshock (which again, are situational, not on demand) require cast time.

Icefury? Please... on a fight like mythic guldan there is no way you'd be able to keep the rotation rolling, you might get some extra movement here and there, but being forced to clip so many casts would tank your dps so hard that it's not even funny.

The only thing we can hope for is that this was 'the' fight that fucked us the most this xpack and it can only get better from here on (yeah right -.-).

[jayheals]

The problem is that encounter designers make the most difficult fights by requiring lots of movement, positioning, tankiness/great defensives, and priority target swapping (usually to distant mobs). Elemental is somewhere between bad-to-terrible at all of these metrics relative to mages, hunters, locks, and spriests.

[Riistov]

Ele isn't anywhere near as bad as you make it sound.

[Honik]

7.2 traits might help. Improved effectiveness of Elemental Focus and a larger Maelstrom pool means harder hitting ES. The golden trait just adds to our AoE which didn't need help at all...

I have legendary shoulders and i cant fckin wait for that trait tbh