WhatsApp refuses to hand over London attacker's messages

[Pann]

Because they are? Federal police agencies are part of the federal government, state police agencies are part of the state government, local police agencies are part of the local government. That's kind of how police work...

Are they? That might be the case in the US but not the UK. Different countries kind of do things differently.

[Kujako]

you should have a place to be able to share your thoughts privately

i respect that,totally

but uh, not if you're a terrorist.

like... fuck that man. no way jose.

It's one thing to keep cops from being tax collecting fucksticks poking their noses where they aren't needed, but this on the other hand is a matter of national security. If you aren't with us, then you are against us and you can go to their country and live with em.

Guess I'm against you then. But why should I leave when its you who are against the principals the country was founded on? You want the government to monitor you at all times and have unfettered access to your personal information, there are places you can go for that.

[Pann]

Where do police derive their authority from? Where do they get their funding from?

Saying the police aren't a part of the government is like saying the NHS isn't a part of government. You can argue to which level of government they belong, but not that they're government. People who provide the same role that aren't government are called private security, not police.

The police are funded through taxes this does not make them a part of the government.

The NHS is not part of the government.

[Ripster42]

The police are funded through taxes this does not make them a part of the government.

The NHS is not part of the government.

It sounds like you have a different definition of government than everyone else. Government isn't just the body that writes laws. It's also all the parts that enforce that body's will.

So answer the other question I asked: Where do police derive their authority from?

[Pann]

It sounds like you have a different definition of government than everyone else. Government isn't just the body that writes laws. It's also all the parts that enforce that body's will.

So answer the other question I asked: Where do police derive their authority from?

I did not say that the Government is a body that just writes laws nor is the Government the only source of writing or creating laws in the UK.

edit- typo

[derpkitteh]

as important as privacy is, when you become a terrorist your privacy and most of your human rights should be done.

[Kujako]

Are they? That might be the case in the US but not the UK. Different countries kind of do things differently.

From where do they get their enforcement powers if not the government?

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as important as privacy is, when you become a terrorist your privacy and most of your human rights should be done.

And as soon as you figure out a way to remove just terrorists rights, that will matter. As it stands, it is a technological impossibility to add a mandatory back door to computer security that only the "good guys" can use against terrorists.

[derpkitteh]

And as soon as you figure out a way to remove just terrorists rights, that will matter. As it stands, it is a technological impossibility to add a mandatory back door to computer security that only the "good guys" can use against terrorists.

it doesn't need to have a backdoor. the owners of the company could just go in and find all of his conversations and give them to authorities.

[Kujako]

it doesn't need to have a backdoor. the owners of the company could just go in and find all of his conversations and give them to authorities.

The whole point of whatsapp is that that can't... it's all encrypted.

[derpkitteh]

The whole point of whatsapp is that that can't... it's all encrypted.

it's kind of foolish that the company itself cannot even see them.

[Kujako]

it's kind of foolish that the company itself cannot even see them.

Again, that's kind of the point. Some people, have a sense of privacy that they are unwilling to sign over to Facebook etc.

[Pann]

From where do they get their enforcement powers if not the government?

They get them through various laws which grant them powers this does not make them part of the government although The Home Office which is a government department is partly responsible for overseeing the police forces.

To be honest I am not even sure what the point of this argument is, as my point was in response to the claim it was government that asked for access to the data when it was not.

[derpkitteh]

Again, that's kind of the point. Some people, have a sense of privacy that they are unwilling to sign over to Facebook etc.

but surely the creators of the encryption already know a way to break it.

they shouldn't have to turn over that backdoor, but if they have one they should have to use it in a case like this.

[Ripster42]

They get them through various laws which grant them powers this does not make them part of the government although The Home Office which is a government department is partly responsible for overseeing the police forces.

To be honest I am not even sure what the point of this argument is, as my point was in response to the claim it was government that asked for access to the data when it was not.

You say that doesn't make them part of the government with no explanation. That's exactly what makes them part of the government. You are literally the only person I've ever heard claim that the police force isn't a part of the government.

[Gorsameth]

but surely the creators of the encryption already know a way to break it.

they shouldn't have to turn over that backdoor, but if they have one they should have to use it in a case like this.

No, the way keys are generated and the strength of modern day encryption means that the creator is not always able to beat his own encryption.

[Ripster42]

but surely the creators of the encryption already know a way to break it.

they shouldn't have to turn over that backdoor, but if they have one they should have to use it in a case like this.

No, just because you know how to encrypt something, doesn't mean you know how to decrypt it without the key. Encryption systems are literally set up that way, because any other way basically defeats the purpose. Opening a "back door" theoretically allows everyone to use said back door, because it's a flaw in the encryption system.

[Kujako]

but surely the creators of the encryption already know a way to break it.

If they could break it, so could someone else, which would defy the point of the app. Anything that allows encrypted contents to be decrypted by anyone other than the intended recipient, is a flaw in the encryption system being used.

[derpkitteh]

No, the way keys are generated and the strength of modern day encryption means that the creator is not always able to beat his own encryption.

hmmm. i guess then it's weighing the many against the few. terrorism is a relatively rare thing, honestly.

i mean, i guess if it were a case of tracking down a nuclear bomb or something, that would outweigh the risks. but not this small level stuff.

[Ripster42]

No, the way keys are generated and the strength of modern day encryption means that the creator is not always able to beat his own encryption.

You're making it sound like they can sometimes, but it's basically never, unless they deliberately introduce flaws.

[Pann]

You say that doesn't make them part of the government with no explanation. That's exactly what makes them part of the government. You are literally the only person I've ever heard claim that the police force isn't a part of the government.

Why does it need an explanation? I thought it was fairly self explanatory. The Government is not the only source of laws in the UK, you may as well argue that the police are part of the EU or the court service if this is your criteria for being part of something.

British Transport Police are a government agency as are the Civil Nuclear Police Authority and the advisory board, Independent Police Complaints Commission, disciplinary and remuneration bodies but no regional police force in England or Wales are. The police are a public service that uphold and derive powers from UK law this does not make them part of the government.