Universal basic incomes

[BannedForViews]

When you exclude immigrants I believe all European (and I think actually all Western) nations are below replacement rates. So probably not going to be a big problem.

Poor people always breed more than wealthy people becuase the cost of providing well fpr a child is expensive.

[Deleted]

How can you just "give" them jobs if those jobs don't exist? Make them do meaningless labor that robots could do? That's inefficient and counter productive as fuck. The goal of any advanced society should be near 100% unemployment while being capable of providing basic needs of every individual. There's no reason why this isn't possible with near full automation.

I believe that disarming the working class with the only weapon they have is going to ultimately spell the death of freedom.

Name me one point in history when it has ever been good for the common man to be entirely reliant and subservient to an aristocracy or elite.

[BannedForViews]

That the guy just complains and doesn't offer any alternatives.

He says UBI will be too expensive and require much higher taxes... Ok, and? The super rich are already super rich and only going to richer. If the rich and the industries they operate aren't willing to pay for a UBI for all the workers their automation makes irrelevant, how exactly do they expect their industries to function? They can't sell to no one. Are they just going to pull and Atlas Shrugged and disappear from society? Ok well when they are gone others will rise in their place... And it will be the same deal.

He says work is an integral part of daily life for everyone and the masses not working will be socially corrosive... Ok, what does that have to do with UBI? The very concept of a UBI is based on work not being available due to automation... No one other than hardcore communists advocate a UBI 'just because'... I don't disagree that everyone just sitting around doing nothing could be bad, but they wouldn't be sitting around doing nothing because of a UBI, the UBI would simply provide them sustenance given they have no work to do.

The only alternative anyone has put forward for a future of automation besides a UBI are idiot bootstrappers who just say "My job isn't going anywhere! Everyone else can fuck off and die, I got mine!"

Read your own words. I dont knpw hpw so many people can have this foolish believe that paying people to buy your stuff someone makes you better off. Also, this idea that there will be sentient robots doing everything is extremely far off, if not far fetched. We have no concept of how to create consciousness, at all. Robots for the most part still require humans to perform the tasks, and there are an extremely large number of jobs that still are robotized, let alone will be. There is no reason to talk about when skynet takes over well before we are a fraction of a step in that direction, and we certainly dont need a UBI in advance of it.

All this is is a hairbrained plan to shove more communism dpwn peoples throats. This world is not egalitarian, and that isnt a philosophy most want to live by. You'll make this shit happen over many, many dead bodies.

[Deleted]

I know I'd be an entrepreneur with basic income. Or I'd go back to uni and study in a STE(M) field to do research to advance society.

Meanwhile, I'm slaving away in your typical business job without real impact. Is this a better, more fulfilling life? My job is challenging, I'm learning as a human being, but what is the purpose of what a lot of us do? It's relatively meaningless, a lot of us work in sectors/businesses that have invented a product/service and don't really add objective value, just subjective value.

I work in the travel industry for a large tour operator. We sell holidays (like a bazillion others) and offer peerless service (where we add value). However, any customer who has half a brain can do without us and organize his holiday himself, and solve issues by himself. People are lazy though, which is why we dominate the market.

If I was more aware of all of this when I was in high school, instead of being focused on football & girls, I might have studied something else right from the start. Then again, so many people who study a STEM field end up in the same meaningless jobs as me.

[Nitros14]

People suggesting we come up with pointless jobs for everyone to do and actively make ourselves more inefficient by barring companies from automating seem to be advocating what Soviet Communism did.

The Soviet Union was great at forcing people to be hired for pointless jobs and generally being massively inefficient.

It also tanked their economy super bad.


The most realistic and likely solution to the eventuality of mass joblessness is probably just to kill all the poor people. The rich hold all the power and all the cards and that's the best option for them personally. I'm reasonably confident they'd rather engage in mass murder than be taxed at higher rates to pay for useless, excess poor people to exist. Maybe a nice form of murder like herding them into ghettos to starve to death. The rich can then soothe any flickering pangs of conscience by talking about how lazy they all are and how it's definitely not their fault the poor have no money for food.

Universal basic income doesn't have a chance, the rich and whatever remains of the middle class would never stand for it.

[Deleted]

The most realistic and likely solution to the eventuality of mass joblessness is probably just to kill all the poor people. The rich hold all the power and all the cards and that's the best option for them personally. I'm reasonably confident they'd rather engage in mass murder than be taxed at higher rates to pay for useless, excess poor people to exist. Maybe a nice form of murder like herding them into ghettos to starve to death.

Well, it didn't take long for someone to advocate a global genocide.

Seek help, I mean it. Social pariahs like you are dangerous to society as a whole, since you have no clue how it works and empathy is a completely foreign concept. Real life is not the video game you're addicted to.

[Nitros14]

Well, it didn't take long for someone to advocate a global genocide.

Seek help, I mean it. Social pariahs like you are dangerous to society as a whole, since you have no clue how it works and empathy is a completely foreign concept. Real life is not the video game you're addicted to.

I didn't advocate it. I said it's the most likely ultimate option. Thanks for all the assumptions about me though. You seem nice.

For the record I'm in favour of universal basic income. Also in favour of not murdering people.

[Mormolyce]

Poor people always breed more than wealthy people becuase the cost of providing well fpr a child is expensive.

Poor people have more kids because it's expensive?

[Deleted]

Name me one point in history where it was possible that all our needs were met by automated robots that don't need to be paid.

Your argument doesn't even make sense. A UBI would increase personal freedom. People wouldn't be forced to work at a dead end job to make ends meet where they don't have time to better themselves to get a better job because they're too busy working.

What protection does a worker have, his job is his shield because that is how you can measure his value.

I'd like to think that my perspective takes precedence, because the working class always get the worst if the people at the top can get away with it. Without fail.

[Deleted]

Protection from what? A UBI is to be sure all the needs are met. You're also ignoring the fact that many people's jobs won't fucking exist anymore. A UBI is giving them their protection back.

Your perspective ignore reality.

Show me where an UBI has worked across a few generations, or over regime shifts or over a long period of time. Currently it's a fantasy without any real practical application, your """reality"""" doesn't exist.

It's an utopic pipe dream until you can show me it works.

[Deleted]

Fuck dude, how many times do you have to be told. It hasn't been needed in the past.

Your argument that "it doesn't work until it's proven to work." Is just borderline idiotic. How about you show me that it doesn't work?

Oh, you can't? Guess that means it works! (not an actual argument).

I can prove to you that leaving the masses undefended will always lead to their exploitation.

The workers cannot rely upon anyone except themselves.

[RaoBurning]

Are you saying they'd be better off to fend for themselves? That's how you get increased crime rates.

And with for-profit prisons being all the rage these days, there won't be as much push from on high to keep crime low; except in lip service, I mean.

[d00mGuArD]

In a society where automation does everything, mentality will be different. People will have more time to spend on arts, sciences, better themselves mentally and physically
(ancient greeks were saying "healthy mind in a healthy body"). Philosophy, mathematics, sciences, music, poetry, literature, inventions, space exploration! Mankind will thrive and people that sit all day doing nothing will be shunned and shamed

There will not be a need for a basic income, you don't need to pay a robot! Robots mine raw materials, robots farm the land, herd the cettle and bring foods and services to people FOR FREE. Robots don't need money, why would you pay a robot.

[Macaquerie]

I can prove to you that leaving the masses undefended will always lead to their exploitation.

The workers cannot rely upon anyone except themselves.

Workers generally don't control the means of production, which means they are in fact rely mainly on their employers' good will to make a living. UBI would not make them any more or less dependent on others for survival than they currently are.

[Deleted]

how is providing them with a UBI leaving them "undefended" whatever the fuck that means.

How is that worse than leaving them with no job and no way of providing for themselves exactly? Why do you continue to ignore the fact that this is to fix the issue of the vast unemployment rate that will come with more and more automation within the next few decades? Again, it's estimated that more than 50 million jobs in the US will be gone in the next decade alone due to automation, at the minimum.

Are you saying they'd be better off to fend for themselves? That's how you get increased crime rates.

I'm saying that the worker should control the means of production, so they wont fall behimd.

Tell me what happens 30 years after UBI has been implemented and some disaster strikes, UBI can't be supported anymore. No one will have jobs, mentality or skill to perform anything in society.

Workers generally don't control the means of production, which means they are in fact rely mainly on their employers' good will to make a living.

Well, they should.

[TriHard]

This is what they did in Amsterdam, right? Norway is also discussing if they should add a so called "Citizen's Wage"
But I guess this would not work for huge countries.

[Nitros14]

A lot of the rich actually advocate for a UBI. Maybe educate yourself before talking about fucking genocide.

A few rich people have said things good about it.

I remain reasonably confident most rich people would rather see a lot of poor people starve to death than have significantly higher taxes. What happens when there's so many people on welfare the system breaks down? You have more faith in humanity than I do.

[Flutterguy]

How would this even be economically feasible? What incentive to work would people have?

When you exclude immigrants I believe all European (and I think actually all Western) nations are below replacement rates. So probably not going to be a big problem.

Exclude immigrants? Good luck. They would eventually win the right to have a basic income as well.

[Deleted]

I prefer promoting well paid 3 day work weeks so everyone still feel they have a purpose and contribute.

I remember some rich dude suggestion having the system be 30 hour work week with 10 hours a day.
But base income might be a good system to make low paid jobs still feasable.

Still issue what to do with low skill workforce.

[Deleted]

Universal basic income is on the subsistence level. You can pay rent, eat very cheap and afford basic healthcare and commodities. Most people want a better life than that

We already have that level of welfare in Sweden, doesn't mean 80%+ of society can drop out and cash in welfare though.