How do you feel about Disc

[Deleted]

So your logic is because discs are few they suck? Because its logical to assume that choices with different difficulty will have the SAME popularity and participation. Humans dont opt for the faster easier choice most of the time?

So classical music must be damn bad since most people dont listen to it nowdays.

While I don't agree with the vitriol from the said person, he does have a point. Nobody is asking for disc to be as popular as the top popular classes, but that % has only been dropping even after EN, despite the fact that people getting used to the spec over time, plus the stigma of 50%healer/50%dps being erased should have helped. 2% is horrifyingly low, less than a third than even mistweavers. There's "not very popular" and there's "close to extinct". Not even holy priests in WoD were that low. Extremes are always a sign something is wrong, either on the good or bad side.

That being said, performance wise, disc looks rather good atm on logs!

[Popokolara]

His argument is not that discipline has a popularity problem, we all agreed on that 2 and a half months ago. His argument is that since its unpopular, it must be unviable, external mana dependent, broken, and not worth bothering with.

[Deleted]

His argument is not that discipline has a popularity problem, we all agreed on that 2 and a half months ago. His argument is that since its unpopular, it must be unviable, external mana dependent, broken, and not worth bothering with.

That I don't agree with. Disc does look more than decent parses wise.

[Supliftz]

But its not making the raid worse. According to you every healer benefits equally from Innervate, Disc doesnt need Innervate any more than any other healer, and Disc performance is all about player skill.

So passing other people Innervates should be fine, you will still heal okay and can post logs with decent numbers thus totally shutting me up for all time. Win-win for everybody!

Unless everything you ever said was just bullshit to boost your own ego, but no-ones that sad and pathetic in WoW right.

Right?

Again, why would I actively make my raid worse for you? Why can't the positions of 'disc doesn't need innervates to do well, and disc has the best innervate" both be true?

[MendUS]

Again, why would I actively make my raid worse for you? Why can't the positions of 'disc doesn't need innervates to do well, and disc has the best innervate" both be true?

Because he has an agenda :kappa:.

This just went full circle.

[Kilee25]

If you have a spec that requires an extreme level of skill plus heavy reliance on outside sources in order to pull equal weight in raids, that's my definition of unviable, when placed within the context of "average raider" - who will not have either of those.

Less than 2% of the player base proving an exception is just that. An exception.

[MendUS]

If you have a spec that requires an extreme level of skill plus heavy reliance on outside sources in order to pull equal weight in raids, that's my definition of unviable, when placed within the context of "average raider" - who will not have either of those.

Less than 2% of the player base proving an exception is just that. An exception.

Have you even read this thread? Outside sources of mana aren't required to pull in line with other healers. Even then, if you have a Disc healing competitively (or more than other healers on certain fights) and providing 200k dps, you're telling me that's unviable? If so, you clearly underestimate the effect of healer DPS in progression content.

We've already beaten this dead horse several times. I'd recommend to read the 8 pages of this thread in its entirety.

[Kilee25]

I have read it. I am saying that the performance you are using as proof isn't attainable by average, and perhaps even good, raiders. You are using the performance of exceptional raiders as your baseline.

[MendUS]

I have read it. I am saying that the performance you are using as proof isn't attainable by average, and perhaps even good, raiders. You are using the performance of exceptional raiders as your baseline.

You're making the case that viability = popularity. It's not. I'll concede the spec is too difficult (or at least takes too long to learn) for most average raiders. This is exactly why every single top disc player agrees with Sigma's assessment that the entry level of the spec is too unwelcoming and unforgiving. There needs to be a balance. I think the fact that there are clearly people showing the benefits of Discipline, it proves that it's viable, as long as you understand how the spec works.

I'm not arguing that the spec is difficult for most, it is and that needs fixed. Coming in and saying we rely on external sources of mana and are not viable for progression is just inaccurate. Sure, a small group of people have mastered it and really show off its potential, but it's not like we/they are doing anything that most other players can't do. Monitoring boss timers and understanding your toolkit is the simplest way of stating how to master a Disc Priest. The level to which you can implement that understanding of your toolkit is based on how much time you have practicing it and your personal skill level, as well as your ability to understand boss mechanics and react to them in advance.

Regardless, don't come in and make blanket statements regarding a spec if you don't understand the spec in the slightest.

[Popokolara]

I have read it. I am saying that the performance you are using as proof isn't attainable by average, and perhaps even good, raiders. You are using the performance of exceptional raiders as your baseline.

What does average and good mean? If you are good with your class, you are a good raider. You cant be good but bad with the class you are playing. Is there some univeral metric for generic raider "skill"?

It needs hard work, it does, but it IS viable, wether people who cba to bother like it or not. Viability is NOT dependant on popularity, how easy it is to learn or how much work it takes. Its suffers from a serious entry level problem, but you cannot say its a unviable.

Stop trashing the spec because its not easy, and trying to disguise the problem as something else.

[Kilee25]

Average/good to me means that I could hand the class spec to 100 people all of varying degrees of experience and skill, and more than 50 of them wouldn't be a liability to their raid team. This is also what I think of when I see the word "viable" used in the context of a wow class discussion. Viable to me is synonymous with "practical", "reasonable", and "realistic". If only 10 of 100 could get good performance, then I wouldn't call it that.

[longxia]

Because he has an agenda :kappa:.

Thats very Putinesque of you Mend, because it is you and Supz that are trying to build an online presence (Youtube, Twitch, H2P) and also you both love your own bloated egos (exceptional palyer skill, outstanding intellect, supreme paragons of humanity, masters of that which mere mortals cannot comprehend). Plainly it is you two that have the agenda, I just cant stand your bullshit but gain nothing myself.

With my new ventures into creating Discipline Priest content on YouTube and providing video guides in addition to my written content, I will be referring people to use the link below to view my guide.

[Popokolara]

Average/good to me means that I could hand the class spec to 100 people all of varying degrees of experience and skill, and more than 50 of them wouldn't be a liability to their raid team. This is also what I think of when I see the word "viable" used in the context of a wow class discussion. Viable to me is synonymous with "practical", "reasonable", and "realistic". If only 10 of 100 could get good performance, then I wouldn't call it that.

I suggest we split the term then, so that we speak in common grounds. The term as you set it, and its problematic nature is in complete agreement with all previousdiscussion.

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Thats very Putinesque of you Mend, because it is you and Supz that are trying to build an online presence (Youtube, Twitch, H2P) and also you both love your own bloated egos (exceptional palyer skill, outstanding intellect, supreme paragons of humanity, masters of that which mere mortals cannot comprehend). Plainly it is you two that have the agenda, I just cant stand your bullshit but gain nothing.

I truly believe that your intention is to attack them because you feel their personalityies are self centered and toxic, and i do happen to suffer from the same type of triggering i must admit.

Its just that in this scenario you have been using a series of flawed arguments and sacrificing all logic, decency and blatanly lying to serve your purpose, basically becoming your own worst enemy. Yeah he used some fancy words. So? He does have an agenda, its to HELP PEOPLE understand the spec. Get over it and find some real reason to satisfy your personal crusade for the betterment of mandking, rather than going all yellow press at people who seem to poke out.

Yeah sups becomes a jerk regularly, he wouldnt even deny that. Bloated ego, you havent been really watching him carefully outside of the troll wars.

[longxia]

Monitoring boss timers and understanding your toolkit is the simplest way of stating how to master a Disc Priest. The level to which you can implement that understanding of your toolkit is based on how much time you have practicing it and your personal skill level, as well as your ability to understand boss mechanics and react to them in advance.

This right here is the real bone of contention, 95+% of Disc players from WoD have since abandoned the spec and I say its because the spec is broken, (external mana, team coordination, no spot heals etc) while a handful of guide writers say its because everybody but them is a shit player. Among that huge multitude of players are many who are probably (law of averages) better than either Supz or Mend, but they didn't have Boomies, or didn't want to aggravate their heals officer with too many demands. Agan, Supz and Mend are not superhuman players, they're above-average players with exceptional support.

But in their own eyes everybody in the whole world, except for them, is just a shit player. Does anybody really think ego is not a factor in their bullshit?

Monitoring boss timers, understanding your toolkit, having superhuman intellect and so on, none of that really matters. If you dont have external mana and team coordination you will not match the HPS or the life-saving ability of a bad Holy priest, let alone a big-3 healer class. If its not possible by Supz (lol at excuses btw) its not possible by anyone.

[MendUS]

Thats very Putinesque of you Mend, because it is you and Supz that are trying to build an online presence (Youtube, Twitch, H2P) and also you both love your own bloated egos (exceptional palyer skill, outstanding intellect, supreme paragons of humanity, masters of that which mere mortals cannot comprehend). Plainly it is you two that have the agenda, I just cant stand your bullshit but gain nothing.

Yeah, I am providing YouTube content via the H2P YouTube. I don't make money off that, it's simply to make content easier to digest for some people instead of everything being written. If you read anything past the obvious, you'd also see I'm retiring from the game in a few months and I won't ever get to "profit" from any of that work.

Nice try though, troll.

This right here is the real bone of contention, 95+% of Disc players from WoD have since abandoned the spec and I say its because the spec is broken, (external mana, team coordination, no spot heals etc) while a handful of guide writers say its because everybody but them is a shit player. Among that huge multitude of players are many who are probably (law of averages) better than either Supz or Mend, but they didn't have Boomies, or didn't want to aggravate their heals officer with too many demands. Agan, Supz and Mend are not superhuman players, they're above-average players with exceptional support.

Everybody in the whole world, except for them. Does anybody really think ego is not a factor in their bullshit?

Monitoring boss timers, understanding your toolkit, having superhuman intellect and so on, none of that matters. If you dont have external mana and team coordination you will not match the HPS or the life-saving ability of a bad Holy priest, let alone a big-3 healer class. If its not possible by Supz (lol at excuses btw) its not possible by anyone.

Lol, if you knew anything about me it would be that I don't get Innervates or Wisdom and haven't for almost the entire expansion. Also, don't lump me in with Sups, I'm not as good as he is or even close.

---

The spec is hard to learn and master mostly because it's not intuitive and requires practice; the toolkit itself isn't that complex. If that's hard for you to comprehend, then that's your problem, not mine.

[longxia]

Yeah sups becomes a jerk regularly, he wouldnt even deny that. Bloated ego, you havent been really watching him carefully outside of the troll wars.

I saw him on FinalBoss he seemed like a good guy, very knowledgeable and way more interesting than the other two. Hes still full of shit about the reasons he parses so well. Understandable really, I would tell everyone its because Im awesome too, who wouldnt.

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Lol, if you knew anything about me it would be that I don't get Innervates or Wisdom and haven't for almost the entire expansion.

Great, can you post some logs bro, and maybe a fight video with explanatory voiceover (not just loud techno haha). TrufiGCD would help people understand what they're seeing as well.

Even if its not world-record kind of HPS just seeing what Disc is truly capable of would be awesome and would maybe bring back a lot of former players, especially with the recent boost to off-spec weapons.

The only interesting Disc video I've seen was the mythic Helya one with some guy doing 1.2m HPS (with 2 or 3 boomies).

[Oneirophobia]

Why would they complain that they have to use healing spells to..heal you? :P
I think you just stumbled over bad disc priests that think they should never use anything other than atonement. Unless they needed to spam you constantly with it, which would suggest the problem being on the other side.

That sounds like the issue. I generally do not need Shadow Mend except for emergencies or when Plea is 6 or higher, which makes Shadow Mend more mana efficient to get atonements out.

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To the main discussion, I LOVE Disc, but it needs work. It does. There isn't any way around that. I play a resto Shaman, a resto Druid, mistweaver Monk and primarily my holy/disc Priest. Only healer I don't play is Paladin.

Holy just kicks the crap out of Disc. In most situations for Disc on a raid scale*, Disc needs to either predict the incoming damage well in advance (IE very very reliant on addons like DBM) in order to properly prepare for it via Atonement application, or people start dying. Is it a bad thing to be heavily reliant on an addon? Up to you, for me, yes, because I can be another healer and not even have DBM.


*Aside from single target.

My main gripe with the spec is raid healing. You simply can't use PW: Radiance to raid heal. It is nearly only useful for getting atonement out semi-quickly, and then following up with penance. This current method of raid healing just does not cut it. What other tools do we have to raid heal? Halo? Okay, if it applied atonement to everything it hit, maybe. Holy has renew spam, prayer of mending, divine hymn, prayer of healing, you can even spec into circle of healing for some inefficient reason if that isn't enough. Disc has "spam Radiance well in advance to get Atonement out as fast as you can and pray Atonement doesn't time out so that when the damage hits everyone, you can attempt to heal it up with penance and shadowfiend / light's wrath." It is anxiety inducing. Meanwhile, on my resto druid or literally any other healer, I press tranquility or throw out a wild growth and call it a day. Drop healing tide totem, pop divine hymn, whatever autopilot I.W.I.N. button I have. Disc doesn't have one of those.
"But what about PW: Barrie--" Okay but what if you can't get the entire raid to stack in one location due to mechanics? Which is frequently an issue.

Secondary gripe is mana. I can be as reckless as I please with my Holy spec (and my stupid resto druid, why do we even have a mana bar) and mana never seems to be an issue. With disc, ho' boy. Not really the case at all.


You know what, forget all the stuff I wrote above and let me just ask this, what does Disc do for your raid that Holy can't do better?

And don't say "extra damage," I don't think any fights in legion are going to be tuned around expecting a healer or two in your comp to be pulling meaningful numbers.

[MendUS]

I saw him on FinalBoss he seemed like a good guy, very knowledgeable and way more interesting than the other two. Hes still full of shit about the reasons he parses so well. Understandable really, I would tell everyone its because Im awesome too, who wouldnt.

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Great, can you post some logs bro, and maybe a fight video with explanatory voiceover (not just loud techno haha). TrufiGCD would help people understand what they're seeing as well.

Even if its not world-record kind of HPS just seeing what Disc is truly capable of would be awesome and would maybe bring back a lot of former players, especially with the recent boost to off-spec weapons.

The only interesting Disc video I've seen was the mythic Helya one with some guy doing 1.2m HPS (with 2 or 3 boomies).

Twitch (I don't stream that much, but intend to going forward more often, at least till I retire)
https://www.twitch.tv/mend_us

Video guides on the H2P YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09lk...Upvg46qQ0FLkpv

Personal YouTube (been inactive since EN)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIF...Z6o65ogNmbr8XQ

Written Disc guide:
https://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=8882

Mythic Nighthold Boss Strategies for Disc:
https://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=9522

Heroic Gul'dan Log
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&type=healing

Note: PUG, Heroic, 2 Druids competing for my healing, only one mana trinket, Gul'dan (arguably the worst fight for Disc in NH), no wisdom, no innervate. Result? 90th percentile parse and beat the other healers in healing + 87M boss damage.

I could link every single resource that I (and others) have published to help players get to an acceptable level, but then again, you can always go to the H2P Discord where there are a community of fellow Disc Priests willing to help analyze logs and get you pointed in the right direction for accurate information.

[Popokolara]

That sounds like the issue. I generally do not need Shadow Mend except for emergencies or when Plea is 6 or higher, which makes Shadow Mend more mana efficient to get atonements out.

---


To the main discussion, I LOVE Disc, but it needs work. It does. There isn't any way around that. I play a resto Shaman, a resto Druid, mistweaver Monk and primarily my holy/disc Priest. Only healer I don't play is Paladin.

Holy just kicks the crap out of Disc. In most situations for Disc on a raid scale*, Disc needs to either predict the incoming damage well in advance (IE very very reliant on addons like DBM) in order to properly prepare for it via Atonement application, or people start dying. Is it a bad thing to be heavily reliant on an addon? Up to you, for me, yes, because I can be another healer and not even have DBM.


*Aside from single target.

My main gripe with the spec is raid healing. You simply can't use PW: Radiance to raid heal. It is nearly only useful for getting atonement out semi-quickly, and then following up with penance. This current method of raid healing just does not cut it. What other tools do we have to raid heal? Halo? Okay, if it applied atonement to everything it hit, maybe. Holy has renew spam, prayer of mending, divine hymn, prayer of healing, you can even spec into circle of healing for some inefficient reason if that isn't enough. Disc has "spam Radiance well in advance to get Atonement out as fast as you can and pray Atonement doesn't time out so that when the damage hits everyone, you can attempt to heal it up with penance and shadowfiend / light's wrath." It is anxiety inducing. Meanwhile, on my resto druid or literally any other healer, I press tranquility or throw out a wild growth and call it a day.

Secondary gripe is mana. I can be as reckless as I please with my Holy spec and mana never seems to be an issue. With disc, ho' boy. Not really the case at all.


You know what, forget all the stuff I wrote above and let me just ask this, what does Disc do for your raid that Holy can't do better?

And don't say "extra damage," I don't think any fights in legion are going to be tuned around expecting a healer or two in your comp to be pulling meaningful numbers.

Thats the thing, Disci is harder than the others, as in requiring a reorientation of the controllers gameply style. Its a problem? Why? Because its not as easy? Thats what you are describing?

I can be reckless with mana, I dont have to predict, I dont have to work much more. Yeah thats disc. Some people like the feelign of disc, and find the others boring. Diversity is good! Its a game, we all find what we like.

[Kilee25]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I wanted to point out that getting 90% in disc might not be "impressive" from two standpoints - lack of competition, and it's relation to what other equally skilled players could do with alternative specs.

As a brute example, I could regularly score 98% ranks as survival in WoD, and my overall DPS in most non-Mythic raids would be in the top 7 or so (out of 13-15 dps). However, it was also true that I could swap to marksman and provide an enormous net gain on the raid. And my marksman parses would be in the low 80s percentile - more competition, larger parse base, etc... but my raid dps would go up by about 10-20k.

We could "technically" kill the boss with me playing either spec, but one was demonstrably easier.

I would like to ask a practical question - if this were a DPS spec, would this discussion be going the same way?

(Again, please do not get offended. I'm trying to offer some clarity/perspective on my point of view.)