The South China Sea presents a reality check for America

[Masark]

I'm not sure I believe you though when you say a conflict with China is inevitable.

Given that they have mutually contradictory goals in the area, conflict is fairly inevitable unless one or the other abandons those goals.

[GreenJesus]

This is factually wrong. The red line in Syria was a call for international action with the UN, and we did. There was no public support for another war in the ME, which is why Obama didn't go into Syria. If we did go into war with Syria, it would of made the situation worse.

The only things that have weakened our global position is withdrawing from the TPP (Trump) and having an administration using the cyber-warfare resources of a hostile adversary to get into the white house (Trump). None of these have anything to do with Obama.

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There is only one party, one ideology, that has divided the US since ratification. Modern conservatism has always been antithetical to the central planks of liberal democracy. You can see it in the concessions made for slave states to join the Union. You can see the almost effortless push of pro-confederacy propaganda work on the impoverished and uneducated in the south and tidewater to fight for a lifestyle that benefits an extreme minority. You can see it in post-reconstruction south, where Jim Crow laws and lynching of black people because they dared to redress their grievances to their representative government. You see it in the Goldwater era, segregation, anti-CRA and VRA. And now you see it today, where the interests of conservatism and their media channels are now aligned with a hostile power to the US and all you hear is deafening silence from their side because they want a leader like Putin, they want a virtual and physical police state with over 1,000,000 "secret police".

Well, Obama made a statement "don't cross this red line or else" and it turned out it had no weight behind it and he didn't really mean it. Regardless of "UN and no war" etc. it means he wasn't willing to follow through with his claim.

[Daelak]

Well, Obama made a statement "don't cross this red line or else" and it turned out it had no weight behind it and he didn't really mean it. Regardless of "UN and no war" etc. it means he wasn't willing to follow through with his claim.

Because the devastating costs weighed the benefits of a land invasion. Simple game theory.

[Deleted]

Because the devastating costs weighed the benefits of a land invasion. Simple game theory.

Indeed, which is a very good reason for not having said it.
But after having said it, not following through is worse.

[Daelak]

Indeed, which is a very good reason for not having said it.
But after having said it, not following through is worse.

Not really, if anything it showed that he respects the sentiments of public opinion. Besides, the efficacy of our special forces on the ground, has been a more incremental approach, yet has provided more smaller wins in the fight against ISIS. Syria is yet another proxy war between the west and Russia. Russia wants us to go all in, we should never help the Russian hand.

[GreenJesus]

Not really, if anything it showed that he respects the sentiments of public opinion. Besides, the efficacy of our special forces on the ground, has been a more incremental approach, yet has provided more smaller wins in the fight against ISIS. Syria is yet another proxy war between the west and Russia. Russia wants us to go all in, we should never help the Russian hand.

Exactly. Then don't say "the red line is right here dont cross it I double dare you" and then not follow through and let them stomp over the US. Don't pick a fight you aren't willing to win.

[Auxora]

While shady of China and costing them a lot of reputation globally, it's really more of an issue for the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, and Vietnam who have territory they claim being infringed upon. It's something they have much more of a dog in the fight of than the US. And as far as the billions in trade that travels through the South China Sea, the vast majority of that is Chinese. It is possible to easily go around it. And the Chinese making sea traffic to and from their country more difficult isn't in their best interests.

As far as the mistake of threatening force against the islands, that's something that could just be added to the laundry list of diplomatic mistakes the administration has made already. The US military absolutely has the capability of shutting down access to those islands. But the cost of doing so makes almost no sense for the US to do for a whole slew of reasons. If Vietnam, or Malaysia, wants to take action they can. But although relations are much improved, sacrificing US lives for the benefit of Vietnam of all countries, or Duterte in the Philippines who has spent the last year bashing the US...seems like a massive mistake.

Also, building islands barely out of the water in the Rim of Fire, an area that is incredibly prone to massive earthquakes and huge tsunamis...I definitely wouldn't want to be stationed on one of those. One decent sized tsunami would wipe out every one of those man-made islands.

[Alydael]

This is factually wrong. The red line in Syria was a call for international action with the UN, and we did. There was no public support for another war in the ME, which is why Obama didn't go into Syria. If we did go into war with Syria, it would of made the situation worse.

The only things that have weakened our global position is withdrawing from the TPP (Trump) and having an administration using the cyber-warfare resources of a hostile adversary to get into the white house (Trump). None of these have anything to do with Obama.

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There is only one party, one ideology, that has divided the US since ratification. Modern conservatism has always been antithetical to the central planks of liberal democracy. You can see it in the concessions made for slave states to join the Union. You can see the almost effortless push of pro-confederacy propaganda work on the impoverished and uneducated in the south and tidewater to fight for a lifestyle that benefits an extreme minority. You can see it in post-reconstruction south, where Jim Crow laws and lynching of black people because they dared to redress their grievances to their representative government. You see it in the Goldwater era, segregation, anti-CRA and VRA. And now you see it today, where the interests of conservatism and their media channels are now aligned with a hostile power to the US and all you hear is deafening silence from their side because they want a leader like Putin, they want a virtual and physical police state with over 1,000,000 "secret police".

Of course, how could I be so silly- it's all those rascally conservatives. Don't know how I missed it.....

Your comment is a perfect example of why we are in this mess. Each group (whether it is Pub or Dem, right or left, w/e) things they are the good group and all the other groups are bad. It is a very simplistic way of looking at it. The world is not black and white like that, sorry........

The red line was Obama's red line. The UN never issued a red line (don't even know where you got that from). They were Obama's words- it was his threat...... and he didn't follow through.

I agree, I did not want him to send troops- but at the same time, you can't make threats like that then not carry them out- it destroys your credibility.

Even with all that, he was about to send our troops (without the UN)- then he saw that public support for it was only 17%, so he didn't do it.

[Deleted]

Also, building islands barely out of the water in the Rim of Fire, an area that is incredibly prone to massive earthquakes and huge tsunamis...I definitely wouldn't want to be stationed on one of those. One decent sized tsunami would wipe out every one of those man-made islands.

What if someone were to dig a hole into the ocean floor somewhere in the middle of that sea and buried a massive 50MT hydrogen bomb. Would that solve the issue with those islands?

[Daelak]

Of course, how could I be so silly- it's all those rascally conservatives. Don't know how I missed it.....

Your comment is a perfect example of why we are in this mess. Each group (whether it is Pub or Dem, right or left, w/e) things they are the good group and all the other groups are bad. It is a very simplistic way of looking at it. The world is not black and white like that, sorry........

The red line was Obama's red line. The UN never issued a red line (don't even know where you got that from). They were Obama's words- it was his threat...... and he didn't follow through.

I agree, I did not want him to send troops- but at the same time, you can't make threats like that then not carry them out- it destroys your credibility.

Even with all that, he was about to send our troops (without the UN)- then he saw that public support for it was only 17%, so he didn't do it.

It's not about black and white, it's about understanding history, and how the historical events and people that were the genesis of these ideologies have morphed over the years. It is impossible to dispute the authoritarian and anti-democratic strain of conservatism in the US, because it was borne from treating human beings as vehicles to make profit and live a life of leisure. There is nothing else to it, they wanted a continental slave state, they attacked like a cornered rat, then they created segregation.