AOTC should be rewarded at the end of a patch.

[Deleted]

This wouldn't fix anything. People would ask for [Heroic: Gul'dan] instead. Lol.

However, moving past that, there's two types of groups progress groups and clear groups.

If you are a guy that's run Gul'dan heroic 500 times, do you really wanna bring 10 people that have never done it and could slow you down? No.

If you are a guy that's NOT killed Gul'dan heroic, then make your own group and progress it, or do you want a smooth run too (aka. kill it with people that already know what they're doing?) that's looking to be carried.

[HeiAggra]

Nothing is more fustrating than normal/heroic groups asking for AOTC, so I gotta bust out the fake achievement addon and hope they don't armory me.

As a raider who has every AOTC up to NH, been in mythic guilds, hardcore guilds. The lot. Ilvl should matter AOTC should not.

Proposal. Award AOTC like a PVP achivement. At the end of the raid patch. Fixes the problem right-out.

I know what you mean but it would not fix the problem.
The problem is the players that ask for the most idiotic stuff like to do a normal NH run they ask for 890+.
Players need to relax and enjoy. Most groups i have seen they ask 900+ and curve wich i have and guess what the leader is the less equiped and no curve in most of the cases.

[Spotnick]

I guess you miss Gear Checks at the Dalaran portals.

[Mlz]

I know what you mean but it would not fix the problem.
The problem is the players that ask for the most idiotic stuff like to do a normal NH run they ask for 890+.
Players need to relax and enjoy. Most groups i have seen they ask 900+ and curve wich i have and guess what the leader is the less equiped and no curve in most of the cases.

Or, people want to blitz through normal within an hour for the AP/legendaries/whatever and therefore make sure that everyone has cleared the instance ages ago and has more than enough gear. There are tons of groups that have undergeared leaders or carries but there are also quite a large amount of groups who genuinely have only well equipped/experienced people in them. It really does sound like the case of sour grapes when people complain that all groups that require high ilvl/aotc are wanting to be carried or whatever. I personally only join groups that have at least 900+ required ilvl, pref 905+ for N/HC, make sure that noone is undergeared (a quick check of HP will suffice) and I've yet to regret my decisions. For instance, there's a pretty huge difference between pugging NH normal with a group of 870/880 ilvl average, including people who have no experience and clearing the place with 900+ ilvl people who know the bosses like the back of their hands. It's normal that people do not want to re-progress things they have already spent their time and sweat on just for some pugs they will never see again. In guilds, it is more likely that inexperienced/undergeared people will be involved, so - join one.

On another note, I've seen several groups that specifically do NOT ask for achievements - yes, they are rare but they do exists. If you want a chill environment where you won't be judged, again - join a casual guild. Otherwise, try to pug an instance as early as possible for the curve (groups during the first week often don't ask for achievements).

[Sprinky]

How many times have you had to fake the achievement? Surely its just 1 time to get the kill. I don't see how that was worth making a forum thread about.

[hablix]

I got my AoTC: Gul'dan the hard way. I spent a lot of time looking for groups, getting declined to a lot of groups, wiping dozens of times when I made it into groups, all the while continuing to build up my ilvl, until I finally made it into a non-AoTC group that got the kill on the 21st! attempt.

There's a very good reason groups require AoTC, at least for Gul'dan. It takes non AoTC groups 21 attempts to get kills. I earned my achievement and I'm pretty proud of it, just like my AoTC: Garrosh, which I earned in a similar fashion in its day.

Having said all that, ilvl > AoTC for the first 6 or 7 bosses.

PS: Heroic kills still show up in your character statistics, so awarding AoTC at the end of a patch would just lead to more armory screening, and/or invite > inspect > removes.

[Seramore]

Unless my memory is fucking with me, I think AOTC originally was only obtained at the end of the patch when these achievements were introduced.

[bmjclark]

If you're using an addon to fake the achievements, this would only hurt you because people would just check your armory more often than they currently do to see if you've killed guldan (or whatever the boss happens to be in the future)

[Kulspruta]

We'll armory people that join our runs if pug is needed. So would not fix anything if removed, you just would'nt be invited. Unless ofc. it was the first few bosses in the raid, but by the end of NH HC, we'd prefer that you also have kill.

[klaps_05]

people still ask for KSM/AOTC? just use the mythic.plus helper addon - shows kills, gear, legendaries.

[Ealyssa]

I 100% armory every single PUG group I make for NH heroic and MM EN (2-4 runs per week)

Without less than 3 Guldan kills I won't take someone. And that's just because of experience. Nowadays even bad players can be carried by a good PUG group, so some people out there have the curve without the "merit".

A friend built a EN HM on wednesday 3 weeks ago. Only asked for curve. The whole raid was curved, every single one of them. We couldn't pass botanist... Me and my friends being the two tanks, we were flabbergasted by how bad people are currently. You can have people with 900+ ilv and curve doing less than 400K DPS (I actually saw this with my eyes). That's just pathetically bad.

I don't have any problem with bad players. They can play all they want. I just don't want them in my raids. Others a free to carry them or they can build their own carry group for all I care.

True for raid PUGS and the few MM+ I do outside guild groups.

[Guyv3r]

Maybe git gud?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Guess I'm just old school. Found a guild I like, pushed through the wipes and turnover and recruiting and more wiping, and finally got my AotC-G with my mates. Probably could have gotten it sooner, but this way was more satisfying (for me - not judging what makes others happy).

Now my primary alt has a steady gig tanking for another guild. They were tip-toeing past Spellblade when I joined because they were tired of wiping on her. One month later we cleared 9 bosses in one night and begin serious work on Gul'dan tonight.

Raiding isn't meant to be a solo achievement, imho. It's about building a team, developing coordination, and getting it done together. That's what makes raiding a worthwhile hobby. Much more so than pugging and focusing on the loot treadmill.

[Wondercrab]

The problem is not the achievement and when it is rewarded. The problem is that players sometimes have unreasonable or have extra strict requirements when building PuGs. Awarding the AotC achievement at the end of the patch doesn't fix this, it will just make them armory for your actual kills, check logs, or use some other metric to judge. As long as people want to be picky about their raid roster, they will find a way to be.

I think awarding AotC at the end of a patch would alleviate the problem slightly, though. The main issue is that it, along with ilevel, provide incredibly accessible (but ultimately very shallow) ways for players to judge the suitability of others for their groups. If it weren't for achievements like this, those who are serious about curating groups would have to examine their applicants a little more closely rather than just using an easy label that might not tell them anything helpful at all. It mind help delineate serious groups from casual ones a little better.

[kevins]

Just remove achievements altogether...it serves no purpose.

Nothing is more fustrating than normal/heroic groups asking for AOTC, so I gotta bust out the fake achievement addon and hope they don't armory me.

As a raider who has every AOTC up to NH, been in mythic guilds, hardcore guilds. The lot. Ilvl should matter AOTC should not.

Proposal. Award AOTC like a PVP achivement. At the end of the raid patch. Fixes the problem right-out.

[Rockerjompa]

If you already have AOTC why bother complaining?

[randomnamegenerator16]

If you already have AOTC why bother complaining?

Because he don't have one and is salty that no one is going to carry him.

[Deleted]

Do what you are supposed to do.. go kill the boss with ppl that havent killed it aswell.. no point in getting carried..

[melodramocracy]

Who wants to wipe in pugs?

Right? I mean, who doesn't want guaranteed success in this zero risk game?

/sarcasm

- - - Updated - - -

Just remove achievements altogether...it serves no purpose.

Now we're talking.

[Deleted]

no, aotc is good way of knowing if you have a brain or not. If you have not gotten it 4 months after the raids release, then tough luck.