Can sub-races be introduced as full races?

[Pandragon]

I dont know. Races need more customization, and this would be great for that.

Blizzard is a business, not a charity, if they have something that can be hugely profitable to their playerbase without angering them,.

Blizzard charging money for the expansions anger the playerbase.

[Rhlor]

i agree and suspect that some are objecting purely out of spite. I've had mys uspicions on a few. Such never seem to account for others' preference for things they consider boring and imaginative. Many of the haters i notice find half elves and high elves boring and unimaginative. some of the devs might think so, but so many of the playerbase loves that stuff, especially the tolkeinesque high elf fantasy trope that doesn't exist in warcraft atm. It's the most popular group in the tolkein univers all others are based off and wow use to have them, and they were extremely popular. Blood elves was doing something "interesting with them" which a lot of people liked, but has never stopped many still liking or desiring the high elf. And high elf has a real chance of happening on the alliance as a sub-race especially if they take nightborne over to the horde, a trade I'm sure many will happily make.. failing that playable high elves could make it on the horde side too, not the Silver covenant, as we will always have high elves on the alliance, but at least it opens up playable high elves, in that scenario it is likely nightborne would remain on the side of their night elven kin.

I've nveer had the problem of high elves split in both horde and the alliance, even with blood elves on the horde. blood elves are ideologically different, that much is clear, they behave differently and do things no high elf would do some of which any high elf would be too ashamed to do. Different philosophy, it's not just faction based. I can easily see high elves on the alliance with the silver covenant, and some high elves returning to Silvermoon, with some of their number co-operating with the horde. Its' not like they're a united nation of anything like that.

And half elf iI can just as easily happen as an option. THey don't need massisve lore on them, they aren't an organized racial group, they either live with the humans or they live with the Elves and join their storyline - they need no lore so i see nothing of what Kosak, who no longer works on the WoW project, tweet as an indication that half elves won't ever be a playable option. and I suspect that helf elves would make the ideal purchaseable sub-race, iif they ever go there.

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good to know your view, but the question was unrelated to wow, I have my reasons for asking him, Are you a Trump supporter? And being a Trump supporter doens't mmean you're a racist, but it seems frindly and zulkhan seem to be making a lot oassumptions based on a simple question to Friendly. Btw.... any more Troll art Ramz? Also not really heard your thoughts on Troll sub-races.. they have the most to choose from, if you were going to choose one which would it be? And not really heard your thoughts on potentially having Zul'dazar in the next expnasion. so with Zulkan and Ramz joining this particular frey, all we're missing is Mehrunes to show up

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you know Kosak was moved off the project right? He is in Hearthstone not wow, from last year too. And what he says means little regarding a playable half-elf sub-race cos half elves are one of the few sub-races that don't actually need any lore, they are either with the humans or the elves, they don't have an organized racial group, so you will start in Northshire or Sunstrider Isle you don't need lore for them, just an option for them that could be as simple as a slider.

What the fuck are you talking about? The blood elves feel bad when fighting the high elves, while the high elves steal, torture and kill blood elves. in actual wow you can see the high elf (Silver Covenant) very sinister
Instead sees the blood elves helping the elves of suramar and worrying about them and have a strong connection with light. The blood elves slowly becomes light elves And there are blood elves with blue eyes and lady liadrin has golden eyes.

Half elves like alodi and kalec for the alliance that are not different in anything to the playable humans that I would like to see.

[Obelisk Kai]

Maybe you should go play lord of the rings online. The closest thing to Tolkien elves has always been night elves. I don't know why you hide behind all these reasons when it's obvious you just want a pale elf model.




Yet again, You either stomp your feet and forget, or still do not understand what blizzard meant when they said they don't like sharing races, they made a exception for pandaren because they were important enough to them. No matter how much you babble on about high elves they will never be as important as you think they are. Blizzard isnt going to give them to you, the race was given to the Horde. Something one would hope you would be able to get over after 10 years.





I'd like to see you do a full post on how you think high elves and blood elves are different at this point, annd then watch as you try word it as if it was canon. The only thing different about them now is that the overwhelming majority of the race is on the Horde side. Unless dying off makes you a different culture. High elves are just bitter Blood elves for the most part.



Kosak still works for blizzard and was until recently was leading the story practically. I doubt anyone at Blizzard cares about half elves and high elves as much as you do, and frantically wrote up a northem level detail about them.

So aside from the same fluff you post, you're not close to having any actual argument for why they should be playable. With each post you do make it more obvious that lore plays second fiddle to headcanon to you if you think it somehow would make high elves a separate playable race to blizzard. If they ever did make half elves playable, keep the filth out of the Horde. Kosak's tweet made it clear blizz didn't have alot of lore for them and saying "oh yea silvermoon totally let a bunch of humans in" is laughable at best.




I assumed it was an attempt at an insult, either way dig the hole deeper, im sure you will find half elves down there.

You aren't going to be able to scream "troll Subrace" and distract Zulkhan.

Friendly is this the third or fourth pre-expansion cycle this stuff has occurred on now? I seem to remember some epic threads about four years ago regarding playable High Elves (back when I had the rumaya handle).

This goes on for months, fruitless debating over a dead subject, and it ends up with the pro High Elf brigade getting disappointed.

One thing I do recall from those old debates is that we would produces lore facts and blue posts and common sense and each time the pro-high elf group would try and discredit them.

Today we have someone from Blizzard state in the past few hours Half Elves are incredibly rare and they are already falling over each other to explain why it doesn't count.

The only thing they have in their favor on High Elves is Ion's off hand comments a few YEARS ago. Which I take at face value, there's a chance they could be added (likely as an eye colour option for the Horde)

[Ramz]

good to know your view, but the question was unrelated to wow, I have my reasons for asking him, Are you a Trump supporter?

The thing was that it was thrown completely out of blue, in unreleated subject.

And being a Trump supporter doens't mmean you're a racist, but it seems frindly and zulkhan seem to be making a lot oassumptions based on a simple question to Friendly.

What matters is a context. This thread was about more playable races, then you throw suddenly question about Trump to a poster that is against playable High Elf. Implying that there is connction. It was simple deduction really.

Btw.... any more Troll art Ramz?

Working on it, in fact I'm planning to create art blog that is just about wow stuff. But so far I only did this: http://imgur.com/a/wkSpG I edited them all to be more tolerable.

Also not really heard your thoughts on Troll sub-races.. they have the most to choose from, if you were going to choose one which would it be?

My apologies I thought I already replied there. As there was a very similar subject on general forums on which I answered. So here is my opinion:
- first of all I want for developers to finish new models as plenty of stuff was still not adressed. With the most glaring one the troll male "boner" braid hairstyle that defies gravity.
- second step would by adding more customisation options to races that are availble in game. The most glaring one is tauren female with the most limited customisation options.
- then adding new skins like dark iron for the dwarves. As they are in canon part of the alliance.

As for other sub races. In case of trolls the only valid ones are forest trolls in Raventusk tribe. But I don't know how would that be implemnted in game if they struggle to write on playable races :s

And not really heard your thoughts on potentially having Zul'dazar in the next expnasion. so with Zulkan and Ramz joining this particular frey, all we're missing is Mehrunes to show up

Only if it's not another troll raid. I'd rather if it was a hub where we work on reputation, help them out and such. Zandalari are too significant and important to just treat them like trash. They are one of the oldest if not the oldest Azeroth civilisation and they should be treated with respect.

But you see I'm not so much thrilled about it seeing how they handled Vol'Jin when he was the only link to Zandalari and other troll tribes. I just can't see Zandalari listening to Mr Nobody from Darkspear tribe. Trolls were really shafted hard in this expansion, and I honestly lost hope they'd ever be revelant anymore. They gave us hope with Vol'Jin's development, but with him gone there is noting to look forward in this regard. And I don't have patience to wait another 10 years for them to bother to develop one troll character, which they could dispose right away.

But you know as artist I still do enjoy to draw and create stuff. So I'm doing everything now out of hobby, and as sort of challenge.

I have in plans to make Zul'Gurub HD revamp similar to what draeneis got in WoD. More details, more additions, bigger, better. But I can't say when I'm gonna do it, could take years. :s

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Today we have someone from Blizzard state in the past few hours Half Elves are incredibly rare and they are already falling over each other to explain why it doesn't count.

Population is a terrible "con" argument here. Consider some of the playable races we already have in game.

[Deleted]

If we're not getting new races or sub-races I would be happier with more options in the CC. For a MMORPG it's extremely limited.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Friendly is this the third or fourth pre-expansion cycle this stuff has occurred on now? I seem to remember some epic threads about four years ago regarding playable High Elves (back when I had the rumaya handle).

This goes on for months, fruitless debating over a dead subject, and it ends up with the pro High Elf brigade getting disappointed.

One thing I do recall from those old debates is that we would produces lore facts and blue posts and common sense and each time the pro-high elf group would try and discredit them.

Today we have someone from Blizzard state in the past few hours Half Elves are incredibly rare and they are already falling over each other to explain why it doesn't count.

The only thing they have in their favor on High Elves is Ion's off hand comments a few YEARS ago. Which I take at face value, there's a chance they could be added (likely as an eye colour option for the Horde)

It really comes down to who I'm arguing with. It may be annoying to tell ravenmoon the same thing repeatedly but at least he makes an attempt to stick with the lore, unlike Talen or northern who have exactly zero shits about the lore if it gave them high elves, or in northems famous words that blood elves were gay, and therefore inferior to high elves and thus justified a playable high elf race.

[Obelisk Kai]

If we're not getting new races or sub-races I would be happier with more options in the CC. For a MMORPG it's extremely limited.

Is it not likely that sub-races are likely going to be a feature of an expanded Character creator? People keep dreaming up them having their own animations or models or introductory experiences without grasping that the clue is in the 'sub' of 'sub-race'. They treat sub-race as almost an excuse for new full races when in all likelihood, they are going to be graphical variations only...further cosmetic choice.

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It really comes down to who I'm arguing with. It may be annoying to tell ravenmoon the same thing repeatedly but at least he makes an attempt to stick with the lore, unlike Talen or northern who have exactly zero shits about the lore if it gave them high elves, or in northems famous words that blood elves were gay, and therefore inferior to high elves and thus justified a playable high elf race.

Talen(my IRL brother btw...I think he posted about it repeatedly just to irritate me haha) has quit. Northem was broken by the Legion announcement, I've not seen him be too active promoting High Elves in recent years. Ravenmoon I feel is trying to expand an idea in sub-races into something much more than Blizzard likely intends if they get around to it.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Is it not likely that sub-races are likely going to be a feature of an expanded Character creator? People keep dreaming up them having their own animations or models or introductory experiences without grasping that the clue is in the 'sub' of 'sub-race'. They treat sub-race as almost an excuse for new full races when in all likelihood, they are going to be graphical variations only...further cosmetic choice.

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Talen(my IRL brother btw...I think he posted about it repeatedly just to irritate me haha) has quit. Northem was broken by the Legion announcement, I've not seen him be too active promoting High Elves in recent years. Ravenmoon I feel is trying to expand an idea in sub-races into something much more than Blizzard likely intends if they get around to it.

Indeed. A physical change like blue eyes inst going to make the blood elves switch factions though. I think it's funny that lorewise ravenmoon would be fine with the horde having nightborne if alliance got helves. The Horde would become so magically superior that it wouldn't even be funny.

[Evangeliste]

I have to agree in a point said earlier, having sub races would help expand on the existing races as their identity recently has been amalgamated to Azerothian forces. Some races get the spotlight more than others and that could be helped with this introduction of flavour which sub-races could bring even if it's purely on customisation levels rather than separate and selective based.

Would give a great excuse to update needed areas like citie, adding a nicety and lore inclusion in particular because since so much has actually changed in the last decade of the game. Some of those places present to this day are quite archaic to the rest of the game, Stormwind is probably the oldest, though it's had updates. Along that thread, would be Silvermoon and Exodar who by all conventions have been abandoned, Exodar only having a spotlight because they went out of their way to do so for story telling purposes which makes it all the more sad these places have a point and remain forgotten.

The events of Suramar, makes it most likely easier to integrate such things and cause this movement. The whole need to include those that for too long have remained on the outside and could likely come and join in the throes of the existing two major factions of Alliance and Horde. Of course even the original races are still unique but with so much required unity to thwart foes against Azeroth I do long for a little bit of a break. Rome was not built in a day, all the races must be experiencing fatigue with the nonstop threats all the time and when we quell them it could lend nicely to that consolidation period after.

[Hugnomo]

to be fair, there's no concrete biology lore on any race in wow. they seem to hate going into the fun details like that.

we have no idea the age range that draenei start to die, or what age they mature into adults. we don't know for certain the aging and maturity rates of any of the elves other than the fact that anasterian was around like 3,500 and was elderly but still spry enough to be a physical match for arthas.

all the biological data we have on any of the races is entirely extrapolated from tiny bits of evidence here and there. hell, some people aren't even sure if draenei are immortal or not, but evidence points to them being mortal with a finite lifespan.

I know I agree, and I understand that the question made was regarding biology. What I found important to this thread was what was included in the answer, that there was no established lore in general about half-elves.

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Guys, leave the petty childish behavior aside, people are not against your opinion out of spite, they just don't share it. You could try and live with it, instead of trying to trivialize opposing opinions. This thread is a conversation on speculation and personal taste, no one is more right or wrong than anyone else. Personally, I'd prefer some other sub-race instead of half-elves. I understand that you'd like them and I respect that. We'll just have to wait and see. (sorry this comment isn't directed at you derpkitteh, i just noticed i updated this post instead of doing a new post)

[Zulkhan]

good to know your view, but the question was unrelated to wow, I have my reasons for asking him, Are you a Trump supporter? And being a Trump supporter doens't mmean you're a racist, but it seems frindly and zulkhan seem to be making a lot oassumptions based on a simple question to Friendly.

Now that's rich. Out of nowhere you ask here in the Lore section if someone is a Trump supporter after a discussion regarding races and half-breeds in WoW and yet it's us making assumptions. Sounds like the pot's calling the kettle black.

so with Zulkan and Ramz joining this particular frey, all we're missing is Mehrunes to show up

You're free to judge me and Mehrunes as assholes but don't drag poor Ramz into this lmao

[Khrux]

I think realistically there is a stark difference in how some subraces differ from the "original" source.

Like Highmountain Tauren basically have moose antlers and warpaint, but otherwise are indistinguishable from regular Tauren. Yaungol on the other hand had more extensive cosmetic differences, including facial structure, hair/fur and horns. Would these both be considered subraces? One could be added as options in the character customisation, the other is more likely a candidate for a subrace selection.

You could change a blood elves eyes, hair and skin colour and call it a High Elf, but is that worth having it as a subrace option?

Forsaken could be expanded to almost any race, but thats a hefty piece of work involving significant art assets and would mean forsaken as a race itself becomes less relevant when every "race" can now be forsaken.

Overall, I think the more subtle sub-races could just be bundled into the character customisation such as brown/grey orcs, brown/grey dwarves, Highmountain Tauren etc. while other subraces such as Amani Trolls for example require full model/skeleton/animation work and are basically a new race entirely.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You could change a blood elves eyes, hair and skin colour and call it a High Elf, but is that worth having it as a subrace option?

ive made a post before showing that I can make a blood elf with as pale skin as the high elves.

Forsaken could be expanded to almost any race, but thats a hefty piece of work involving significant art assets and would mean forsaken as a race itself becomes less relevant when every "race" can now be forsaken.

as for the forsaken. They are scourge "survivors" for the most part, and the val'kyr can only raise humans and elves. rotted elf subrace could work I guess.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I know I agree, and I understand that the question made was regarding biology. What I found important to this thread was what was included in the answer, that there was no established lore in general about half-elves.

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Guys, leave the petty childish behavior aside, people are not against your opinion out of spite, they just don't share it. You could try and live with it, instead of trying to trivialize opposing opinions. This thread is a conversation on speculation and personal taste, no one is more right or wrong than anyone else. Personally, I'd prefer some other sub-race instead of half-elves. I understand that you'd like them and I respect that. We'll just have to wait and see. (sorry this comment isn't directed at you derpkitteh, i just noticed i updated this post instead of doing a new post)

No dude you are being spiteful, unless you can give real, solid reasons why adding X thing to the game would be bad. I don't want Blizzard to end the faction war, for instance. It adds plot, story, and PVP to the game. It would have negative side effects like homogenizing the game.

What reasons do you have against adding half-elves for instance? The only thing you keep repeating is "NO ESTABLISHED LORE!" ... well thats not even entirely true. And it doesn't really mater anyway. Your argument comes down to "well I don't want them!" Well that doesn't really mean anything. Thats not a solid argument against them being added in a mass addition to something like lots of sub-races being added.

I keep calling it spite because you have nothing concrete against why they shouldn't be added if sub races (read: multiple sub-races for multiples current races) were ever added. You just seem against them for some? reason.

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I think realistically there is a stark difference in how some subraces differ from the "original" source.

Like Highmountain Tauren basically have moose antlers and warpaint, but otherwise are indistinguishable from regular Tauren. Yaungol on the other hand had more extensive cosmetic differences, including facial structure, hair/fur and horns. Would these both be considered subraces? One could be added as options in the character customisation, the other is more likely a candidate for a subrace selection.

That really depends on the amount of work necessary. The textures are already in the game, but would they need to massively work on the skeletons? I don't know.

[Hugnomo]

No dude you are being spiteful, unless you can give real, solid reasons why adding X thing to the game would be bad. I don't want Blizzard to end the faction war, for instance. It adds plot, story, and PVP to the game. It would have negative side effects like homogenizing the game.

What reasons do you have against adding half-elves for instance? The only thing you keep repeating is "NO ESTABLISHED LORE!" ... well thats not even entirely true. And it doesn't really mater anyway. Your argument comes down to "well I don't want them!" Well that doesn't really mean anything. Thats not a solid argument against them being added in a mass addition to something like lots of sub-races being added.

I keep calling it spite because you have nothing concrete against why they shouldn't be added if sub races (read: multiple sub-races for multiples current races) were ever added. You just seem against them for some? reason.

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That really depends on the amount of work necessary. The textures are already in the game, but would they need to massively work on the skeletons? I don't know.

It's like speaking to a wooden door seriously...
I'm not saying it would be bad to add them into the game, I'm saying I'd prefer something ELSE. It's a matter of preference, is that so hard to understand? People have varying opinions on what they'd like to be implemented into the game and not everything makes the cut. I'd prefer Humans or Elves to have other sub-races instead of Half Elves because I don't find them interesting enough. If they find an alternative to half-elves, I would prefer it. Which is a completely subjective opinion just as yours is. You're trying to argue against my personal tastes and that is completely insane, you don't get to dictate what I like or dislike.
It's like you're saying red is your favorite color, and I'm saying mine is blue, and you get upset that I don't prefer red as well and assume I don't prefer it out of spite? Sorry, I just like blue, it has nothing to do with you.

I mentioned the tweet from Dave Kosak as something that I feel suggested it would be unlikely for them to add half-elves. Which should stand as a bigger argument than all the baseless headcanon going on in this thread.

[ravenmoon]

Maybe you should go play lord of the rings online. The closest thing to Tolkien elves has always been night elves. I don't know why you hide behind all these reasons when it's obvious you just want a pale elf model.




Yet again, You either stomp your feet and forget, or still do not understand what blizzard meant when they said they don't like sharing races, they made a exception for pandaren because they were important enough to them. No matter how much you babble on about high elves they will never be as important as you think they are. Blizzard isnt going to give them to you, the race was given to the Horde. Something one would hope you would be able to get over after 10 years.





I'd like to see you do a full post on how you think high elves and blood elves are different at this point, annd then watch as you try word it as if it was canon. The only thing different about them now is that the overwhelming majority of the race is on the Horde side. Unless dying off makes you a different culture. High elves are just bitter Blood elves for the most part.



Kosak still works for blizzard and was until recently was leading the story practically. I doubt anyone at Blizzard cares about half elves and high elves as much as you do, and frantically wrote up a northem level detail about them.

So aside from the same fluff you post, you're not close to having any actual argument for why they should be playable. With each post you do make it more obvious that lore plays second fiddle to headcanon to you if you think it somehow would make high elves a separate playable race to blizzard. If they ever did make half elves playable, keep the filth out of the Horde. Kosak's tweet made it clear blizz didn't have alot of lore for them and saying "oh yea silvermoon totally let a bunch of humans in" is laughable at best.




I assumed it was an attempt at an insult, either way dig the hole deeper, im sure you will find half elves down there.

You aren't going to be able to scream "troll Subrace" and distract Zulkhan.

we already have a white elf model, it's not about that, friendly .

So if one loves dwarves and fantasy settings with, humans, dwarves, elves - one should go play LOTRO instead - how is that ever a solution for any of that? I wonder what other games have humans, dwarves and high elves...

stomp my feet? you can't get so angry at everyone every time playable high elves as an option is mentioned, you have to recognise it is legitimate and serious desire for a lot of people if it keeps coming up, and that they don't view it as ridiculous or annoying as you might. What i don't get is why you're so negatively charged about it.. id on't get it - for me the more the merrier, at this point its the group high elf rather than the race.

wording is everything, but high elves and blood elves are different groups, different ideals, that much was clear when the blood elf was defined and emphasized with specific care taken to mention how departed they were from their naive former selves. The spirits at Lake Keltheril do an excellent job at distinguishing between high elf and blood elf in blizzard's own words. If you close yourself off to high elves so aggressively you will miss most of the pointers, nuances,subtleties and glaring distinctions the developers themselves show.

and lore is lore, head canon is head canon, each topic of discussion and response outlines the context very clearly, making it easy to distinguish when a suggestion, idea, lore point, a fact or interpretation or opinion is given, they shouldn't be confused with each other, and where it isn't clear, it is better to ask first than leap to a conclusion.

And why would being a Trump supporter be an insult? The intention was not to insult, I was curious, you are rather passionate. And as for Troll subrace, frankly i would welcome more people interested in talking about Troll sub-racing and engaging the playerbase more on it, elf elf elf does get wearisome after a while and there are more races than elves, humans and orcs in wow (even though it was nice legion had a major focus on a race other than humans or orcs for a n expansion. Talking about other sub-races in a sub-race topic is not a distraction or intended to be one, question though is why you would think so..?

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Now that's rich. Out of nowhere you ask here in the Lore section if someone is a Trump supporter after a discussion regarding races and half-breeds in WoW and yet it's us making assumptions. Sounds like the pot's calling the kettle black.



You're free to judge me and Mehrunes as assholes but don't drag poor Ramz into this lmao

I'm not judging you or Mehrunes, I think you know yourselves well enough and are aware of your behaviour. I quite like Ramz and even if we have disagreed on stuff before regarding elves, we have agreed and discussed a lot of other stuff, in particular art.

I would love to see what Ramz can do to make Zul'gurub a more high def place. And you don't often share your thoughts on troll sub-races mister, the more an argument on elves drags on in a topic hte more spotlight goes to the group, regardless of whether it is positive or not, or the engagers like or do not, Troll exposure and discussion is really low, and would be healthy and nice to have some focus and interest generated on that race to stimulate discussion and engage people, . Your fantasies and hopes for Troll sub-race are?

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ive made a post before showing that I can make a blood elf with as pale skin as the high elves.



as for the forsaken. They are scourge "survivors" for the most part, and the val'kyr can only raise humans and elves. rotted elf subrace could work I guess.

that's the thing Immo, you don't have to make such posts, I think the people are quite aware high elves and blood elves are the same race, just not the same group, perhaps they are getting at something else in those discussion? Might it be possible in anger or irritation you may have missed it?

I didn't realize the Val'kyr could raise elves... i thought it was only humans. Weren't elves particularly hard to raise as undead? Arthas had to do something special for that? I could be wrong, my memory is vague here, but in warcraft 3. We also don't see many elves raised to undead just a few. I thought the dark rangers were the other banshees Arthas made from the Elves when he ripped Sylvannas' sould from her body, she got those ones back into elven bodies, which is why they are ALL female and they are very few.

The darkfallen group like those we meet in ICC are an unrelated undead group of elves to Sylvannas' rangers, they were a highly skilled group of high elves who set out to avenge Quel'thalas and bring Arthas to justice but underestimated the challenge were slain and raised to serve him as they were some of the brightest and best of the high elves who remained ( he loved converting the best heroes to his cause, that's what the DKs were afterall). Queen Lanathel was their leader and the Princes with her were called the San'layn after.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So if one loves dwarves and fantasy settings with, humans, dwarves, elves - one should go play LOTRO instead - how is that ever a solution for any of that? I wonder what other games have humans, dwarves and high elves...

Its almost like once again you forget blizzard has made it clear that High elves are VERY rare on the Alliance side these days. If WoW took place during the second war and Alliance didn't have high elves, the argument would be valid.

stomp my feet? you can't get so angry at everyone every time playable high elves as an option is mentioned, you have to recognise it is legitimate and serious desire for a lot of people if it keeps coming up, and that they don't view it as ridiculous or annoying as you might. What i don't get is why you're so negatively charged about it.. id on't get it - for me the more the merrier, at this point its the group high elf rather than the race.

The only person here that still seems to think it has any possibility is you, and even then you have to come up with all these loopholes to make it start to sound less desperate.

wording is everything, but high elves and blood elves are different groups, different ideals, that much was clear when the blood elf was defined and emphasized with specific care taken to mention how departed they were from their naive former selves. The spirits at Lake Keltheril do an excellent job at distinguishing between high elf and blood elf in blizzard's own words. If you close yourself off to high elves so aggressively you will miss most of the pointers, nuances,subtleties and glaring distinctions the developers themselves show.

and when Blizzard says time and time again why Alliance don't have High elves do you wave your hands and shout "but the subtly?" If you want to talk distinction, you have a moron like Vereesa in charge, who gave herself her sister's rank with little to no experience leading (or thinking) and ill be generous here, lets say there are over a hundred elves in the silver covenant that followed her. On the Blood elves side you have 3 leaders who have actually lead before and earned their rank, who are capable of thinking strategically at the least. So the biggest distinctions here are the biggest remaining group of helves have a moron as their leader, while the blood elves have 3 relativity intelligent leaders and serve the Horde.

and lore is lore, head canon is head canon, each topic of discussion and response outlines the context very clearly, making it easy to distinguish when a suggestion, idea, lore point, a fact or interpretation or opinion is given, they shouldn't be confused with each other, and where it isn't clear, it is better to ask first than leap to a conclusion.

by saying things that are simply not true. I have no reason to ever assume you are trying to stay away from headcanon. The fact that any true cultural difference still remains between blood elves and high elves seems to be your newest thing.

And why would being a Trump supporter be an insult? The intention was not to insult, I was curious, you are rather passionate. And as for Troll subrace, frankly i would welcome more people interested in talking about Troll sub-racing and engaging the playerbase more on it, elf elf elf does get wearisome after a while and there are more races than elves, humans and orcs in wow (even though it was nice legion had a major focus on a race other than humans or orcs for a n expansion. Talking about other sub-races in a sub-race topic is not a distraction or intended to be one, question though is why you would think so..?

if you were truly tired, you wouldn't keep beating a dead horse and trying to make high elves/half elves/whatever elves were a thing. High elves ,specifically Vereesa are a cancer created by knaak as a baby incubator for Rhonin, and later on a lazy way for blizzard to create faction conflict.If WoW was a single player game, High elves would already all be dead. By extension nearly every half this and that has been written beyond awful by blizzard. To insult the game and elves by insisting they were a common thing is mind boggling. Most Elves are prideful of their race, and aren't going to lay with animals, as blood elves refer to it as.

that's the thing Immo, you don't have to make such posts, I think the people are quite aware high elves and blood elves are the same race, just not the same group, perhaps they are getting at something else in those discussion? Might it be possible in anger or irritation you may have missed it?

There have been numerous people under the belief that blood elves have darker skin then high elves, and therefore justified a different race. The topic was hilariously dropped the moment I posted a screenshot. As for groups, when over 90% of a race is in one group, and the other side is split up into fragments, I wouldn't call them a group. The Silver covenant are practically leeches and would have died without Dalaran.

I didn't realize the Val'kyr could raise elves... i thought it was only humans. Weren't elves particularly hard to raise as undead? Arthas had to do something special for that? I could be wrong, my memory is vague here, but in warcraft 3. We also don't see many elves raised to undead just a few. I thought the dark rangers were the other banshees Arthas made from the Elves when he ripped Sylvannas' sould from her body, she got those ones back into elven bodies, which is why they are ALL female and they are very few.

Elves were easily raised by arthas. His goal was to torture, break, and humiliate Sylvanas and her soul for daring to try to defend Quel'thalas from him. As for dark rangers only being female in game, Maybe something to do with banshees, Lorthemar fights a bunch of undead male rangers in the old sunwell manga.

The darkfallen group like those we meet in ICC are an unrelated undead group of elves to Sylvannas' rangers, they were a highly skilled group of high elves who set out to avenge Quel'thalas and bring Arthas to justice but underestimated the challenge were slain and raised to serve him as they were some of the brightest and best of the high elves who remained ( he loved converting the best heroes to his cause, that's what the DKs were afterall). Queen Lanathel was their leader and the Princes with her were called the San'layn after.

At the time of their death the San'layn called themselves blood elves.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

It's like speaking to a wooden door seriously...
I'm not saying it would be bad to add them into the game, I'm saying I'd prefer something ELSE. It's a matter of preference, is that so hard to understand? People have varying opinions on what they'd like to be implemented into the game and not everything makes the cut. I'd prefer Humans or Elves to have other sub-races instead of Half Elves because I don't find them interesting enough. If they find an alternative to half-elves, I would prefer it. Which is a completely subjective opinion just as yours is. You're trying to argue against my personal tastes and that is completely insane, you don't get to dictate what I like or dislike.
It's like you're saying red is your favorite color, and I'm saying mine is blue, and you get upset that I don't prefer red as well and assume I don't prefer it out of spite? Sorry, I just like blue, it has nothing to do with you.

I mentioned the tweet from Dave Kosak as something that I feel suggested it would be unlikely for them to add half-elves. Which should stand as a bigger argument than all the baseless headcanon going on in this thread.

Bro - you're the one who said to stop being childish, and you keep up personal insults.

Something else? When people talking about Sub-races, they mean a multitude. The idea would be to give each race at least one. I don't care about preferences at all. YOUR preference would matter if it were JUST ONE option being selected. Its a large number of subraces were added, you could play whichever style you wanted, and you could avoid Half-Elves or High Elves, or Leper Gnomes or whatever.

This why your only argument is out of spite. This isn't me telling you that you should like red, this is you trying to say that BMW should only sell blue cars because you hate red cars, when in fact BMW could have their cars in 12 different shades.

No head canon either, I know you just learned that word, but Kosak even mentioned half elves means they are canon already.

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Its almost like once again you forget blizzard has made it clear that High elves are VERY rare on the Alliance side these days. If WoW took place during the second war and Alliance didn't have high elves, the argument would be valid.

I would just like to state, again, that population in game is not a good argument and should not be used. Considering some of the populations of races that we can currently play, we can deduct that this really isn't a solid argument, at least not to Blizzard.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I would just like to state, again, that population in game is not a good argument and should not be used. Considering some of the populations of races that we can currently play, we can deduct that this really isn't a solid argument, at least not to Blizzard.

This is true, however blizzard did use it in their explanation on why there were not playable originally. And they have done alot of killing of high elves since that statement. As per now they are wasting away.