What made classic wow better than current?

[voidillusion]

Sure that is a nice chunk in a couple month span but it means we don't know how many stuck around either. Trying to figure out retention rates and shit is likely not worth going into either. Yes there are people playing on PS. It could potentially be a solid number of people in the hundreds of thousands maybe near a million. But that doesn't mean they'd all go over to Blizz's created realms if they happen. Too many unknowns that we don't have the information about (who knows if Blizz has that info either).

Correct. But one thing we know and another we(i at least) can assume. Retail keeps bleeding subs, sometimes more, sometimes less, it has been so for years. Perhaps the main "fear" is that legacy servers would be concurrent with the retail version and it would bleed subs even more. This is the only argument i can trully believe, and it's a legit one imo. Now, trying to come with arguments like "there is no demand", "it's not profitable", "Not enough would play" etc, it just doesn't make any damn sense knowing what i know about the legacy population.

[Deleted]

You claim desperation then you start dropping logical fallacy accusations like it bolsters your argument. Seriously? You're reaching stratospheric levels of hubris.

And this is ad hominem, also a logical fallacy.

Please, explain to me why a company with the resources and market clout that Blizzard has isn't stopping everything they can to make the game "able to have 20 million subscribers," as you say. If Legacy were really that popular, don't you think Blizzard would be pulling out all the stops to make it a reality?

Because Blizzard is not infallible. In fact, it is very typical for market leaders to fail exactly like this: Every step is perfectly logical when viewed locally (e.g., "Why should be build content only for that minority? Everyone should see everything! Why should be put all the effort into a Legacy server when we can just keep milking money more easily from the current game?"), but together they lead to failure as smaller competitors eat away at the edges (e.g., Minecraft took the new player generations that WoW would've needed to survive). There's a whole theory on it by Clayton M. Christensen if you want to read about it.

[Kyanion]

There's a large interest in classic wow, much larger then people expected it to be in the recent years. No need to get all worked up over a forum post.
Some people indeed are cheapskates and wouldn't pay to play it on a supported server. however, there would def. also be a big 'new' crowed comming over to check out these classic server.

All in all there is no way of knowing how many would actually stick arround. If i were to guess i'd say that it could be quiet allot of people, enough to support it.

And yet Blizzard hasn't made these servers happen. Maybe they know something we don't?

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Correct. But one thing we know and another we(i at least) can assume. Retail keeps bleeding subs, sometimes more, sometimes less, it has been so for years. Perhaps the main "fear" is that legacy servers would be concurrent with the retail version and it would bleed subs even more. This is the only argument i can trully believe, and it's a legit one imo. Now, trying to come with arguments like "there is no demand", "it's not profitable", "Not enough would play" etc, it just doesn't make any damn sense knowing what i know about the legacy population.

I agree totally with you on this. It is one of the arguments I've used many times that it is possible having Retail WoW compete with itself could cause harm to WoW as a whole. It could fracture the playerbase on retail and cause some people to stop retail and go back to Legacy for a time. While that might be great for Legacy it could really harm retail and the game moving forward.

On the flip side, what if Legacy was released and did really poorly after a few months. Is it possible that harms Retail as well because WoW's name took a hit and people left that version too? I mean it is interesting to see what would happen but maybe it is something Blizz wouldn't want to attempt for a potential gain in revenue.

I do make the argument that not enough would play but I say that in the long term. I do think it would be popular out of the game and maybe for a few months but people might get bored REAL fast of the leveling grind and quit. Lord knows they quit for all sorts of reason in retail.

[Relapses]

Here we go again..... PSs aren't there to get money out of their activity.... That's where it actually becomes REALLY illegal, most of them, enphasis on most, just accept donations or run a vanity cash shop to cover expenses, not more, not less. Try to run a server that supports lets say 3k concurrent online players, with DOS protection, host a decent site with that, and see how much you have to pay.

I'm sorry, this entire discussion is really, really silly. A PS starts being illegal the second you install the software on your computer and download copyrighted assets which were reverse engineered from Blizzard. That's it. There are no shades of grey. It's illegal. The end.

And given that they are illegal and free the number of people playing on them has no bearing on a conversation about the number of people currently paying to play the retail game. Again, this is a false equivalence. You are comparing apples to oranges. But I'm the "anti-Legacy zealot" when I point out that it's piracy. What in the actual fuck. There isn't a game developer on the planet who would look at this situation and go, "Gee golly, I sure do want to give into the demands of the millions(sic?) of people currently stealing my product by offering them a service which I have absolutely no reason to believe they'd actually pay for." This is borderline lunacy. You guys have absolved yourselves to the point where playing on private realms isn't even a discussion of piracy anymore.

And yeah, I get pretty frustrated by this discussion because this keeps happening. Over and over again. If we're going to frame this discussion between private realms and retail, it needs to be on even ground. Downplaying the fact that you're openly pirating Blizzard's game while simultaneously demanding they listen to your demands is... I don't know. I don't know how this is even a discussion.

[crakerjack]

The issue with Legion compared to vanilla is that you're rewarded too often. I remember getting my first epic in vanilla and being overwhelmed because it took a long time to get it. I had to grind to 60 and then farm lvl 40-50 dungeons until I was geared enough to do strat/LBRS and then eventually get into a MC raid. Each little progression your character made felt amazing. Now if that certain piece of gear doesn't drop for you, have no fear just use a coin. There's almost an expectation that you'll get what you want each week without having to overly invest effort. Only those that played vanilla can understand where I'm coming from because anyone who started during Wotlk or later is under this impression that you should receive upgrades every week. This new system isn't bad, it's just different. It causes people to burn out and lose interest in the game because they get excessive rewards at the beginning of content patches and then receive little to none as it progresses due to getting rewarded far too often. Atleast in vanilla you had each week to look forward to because there was no expectation that you'd get anything. It made you hungry for that chance at finally getting a new upgrade.

[voidillusion]

I'm sorry, this entire discussion is really, really silly. A PS starts being illegal the second you install the software on your computer and download copyrighted assets which were reverse engineered from Blizzard. That's it. There are no shades of grey. It's illegal. The end.

And given that they are illegal and free the number of people playing on them has no bearing on a conversation about the number of people currently paying to play the retail game. Again, this is a false equivalence. You are comparing apples to oranges. But I'm the "anti-Legacy zealot" when I point out that it's piracy. What in the actual fuck. There isn't a game developer on the planet who would look at this situation and go, "Gee golly, I sure do want to give into the demands of the millions(sic?) of people currently stealing my product by offering them a service which I have absolutely no reason to believe they'd actually pay for." This is borderline lunacy. You guys have absolved yourselves to the point where playing on private realms isn't even a discussion of piracy anymore.

And yeah, I get pretty frustrated by this discussion because this keeps happening. Over and over again. If we're going to frame this discussion between private realms and retail, it needs to be on even ground. Downplaying the fact that you're openly pirating Blizzard's game while simultaneously demanding they listen to your demands is... I don't know. I don't know how this is even a discussion.

Looking at past examples, Blizzard pays little to no attention to pservers while they are free, however when they see ppl profiting from them they always intervene, why? You may not like it, but this subject is far from being as black and white as you paint it, there are many shades of gray.

You become frustated most of all because after so long discussing this issue you still lack the empathy to understand that some ppl actually prefer vanilla design, and some ppl actually would pay for a official server, and this probably baffles you. Once you gain that empathy, and realize the world is more than your eyes see and your head thinks, your frustration will lower considerably.

[Deleted]

Here we go again..... PSs aren't there to get money out of their activity.... That's where it actually becomes REALLY illegal, most of them, enphasis on most, just accept donations or run a vanity cash shop to cover expenses, not more, not less.

I do totally disagree with this one, the majority are there to milk the last penny they can from their playerbase, but only a small part of them are big enough to profit.
If they fail to profit, the risk is still small, not a big sum to pay if they fail to reach the desired playerbase.

[voidillusion]

I do totally disagree with this one, the majority are there to milk the last penny they can from their playerbase, but only a small part of them are big enough to profit.
If they fail to profit, the risk is still small, not a big sum to pay if they fail to reach the desired playerbase.

Give me examples please. I do know a bunch of them so i'm really curious to know wich ones fit this profile you just described.

[Deleted]

You become frustated most of all because after so long discussing this issue you still lack the empathy to understand that some ppl actually prefer vanilla design, and some ppl actually would pay for a official server, and this probably baffles you.

I do think @otaXephon understands that, but he thinks the same as i do, that those "some" it is not even close enough to the ammount needed for legacy blizz servers to just sustain the cost of the service.

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Give me examples please. I do know a bunch of them so i'm really curious to know wich ones fit this profile you just described.

Have you ever been in one of those instant xx level that sell packages?
Anyway i quit PSs when MOP come out, so to be fair i am talking about how PSs were back then, so if they have changed a lot during this time, then i am wrong and they are no longer after trying to fish easy money.

[Deleted]

False arguments? Dude I'm not the one trying to claim there are millions of people playing private servers. Do I think there are hundreds of thousands? Yes. Do I think that enough of them would pay to play from Blizzard? Not in the long term, no. But what do I know. I'm not Blizzard. Blizzard, however, has decided NOT to make these servers happen.

I think both of you are missing the point.

Neither of you are considering how Blizzard will look at this...

To Blizzard, ofc it matter how many people are playing on legacy servers. Thier most important factor in all of this is "Can we make money from this?", therefore they need to assess the market demand to be able to answer that question.

The main factors Blizzard will be using to assess whether legacy servers is worth creating is demand, and cost to create and maintain. Its obvious without question that there is a market for Legacy servers, its just a question of how big that demand is. But most importantly, the cost of creating these servers to operate to Blizzards standards appears to be very high... and im sure it is this factor that is the ONLY reason Blizzard havent moved forward on Legacy servers.

A sidenote is Blizzard truly dont give a fukk about the playerbases opinion on Legacy servers, its simply "can we make money out of this?", thats it.

[Deleted]

Looking at past examples, Blizzard pays little to no attention to pservers while they are free, however when they see ppl profiting from them they always intervene, why?

Maybe because they do not want their name asocciated with shaddy bussiness practices?
Yeah without money there is no bussiness in it.

[Kyanion]

Looking at past examples, Blizzard pays little to no attention to pservers while they are free, however when they see ppl profiting from them they always intervene, why? You may not like it, but this subject is far from being as black and white as you paint it, there are many shades of gray.

You become frustated most of all because after so long discussing this issue you still lack the empathy to understand that some ppl actually prefer vanilla design, and some ppl actually would pay for a official server, and this probably baffles you. Once you gain that empathy, and realize the world is more than your eyes see and your head thinks, your frustration will lower considerably.

I think you are missing the mark pretty badly here. First there are a lot of PS that run cash shops and openly go after money and have been around for some time. Some of them might be crazy hard to shut down, who knows. But they exist.

Secondly, you are wrong about otaXephon and I don't know why you are doing it. otaXephon clearly understands why people play on Vanilla servers and prefer them. He understands that some people would pay for them. He has issues with people using crazy numbers to try and make arguments as if everyone playing on PS right now would suddenly stop and go and pay Blizzard for the privilege.

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I do totally disagree with this one, the majority are there to milk the last penny they can from their playerbase, but only a small part of them are big enough to profit.
If they fail to profit, the risk is still small, not a big sum to pay if they fail to reach the desired playerbase.

Exactly this

[Vorkreist]

I think you are missing the mark pretty badly here. First there are a lot of PS that run cash shops and openly go after money and have been around for some time. Some of them might be crazy hard to shut down, who knows. But they exist.

Secondly, you are wrong about otaXephon and I don't know why you are doing it. otaXephon clearly understands why people play on Vanilla servers and prefer them. He understands that some people would pay for them. He has issues with people using crazy numbers to try and make arguments as if everyone playing on PS right now would suddenly stop and go and pay Blizzard for the privilege.

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Exactly this

Alternative legacyphobe fanfictions.

[Kyanion]

I think both of you are missing the point.

Neither of you are considering how Blizzard will look at this...

To Blizzard, ofc it matter how many people are playing on legacy servers. Thier most important factor in all of this is "Can we make money from this?", therefore they need to assess the market demand to be able to answer that question.

The main factors Blizzard will be using to assess whether legacy servers is worth creating is demand, and cost to create and maintain. Its obvious without question that there is a market for Legacy servers, its just a question of how big that demand is. But most importantly, the cost of creating these servers to operate to Blizzards standards appears to be very high... and im sure it is this factor that is the ONLY reason Blizzard havent moved forward on Legacy servers.

A sidenote is Blizzard truly dont give a fukk about the playerbases opinion on Legacy servers, its simply "can we make money out of this?", thats it.

Umm dude you must have not been around for the megathread and the other numerous threads (including this one). Of course Blizz looks at it with a "Can we profit from this?" view. Obviously at this point the answer is "NO" because these servers do not exist right now.

Also I do NOT think that is the ONLY reason why these servers do not exist. It might be a huge hassle if they were to announce them as people would pile on with demands about bug fixes, class balancing, which VERSION of Vanilla, what about new content and so on. It is a can of worms and I'm sure Blizz is aware of that potential pitfall too. And hell, maybe they DO care about the perception of players/media about going back to release a 10-12 year old version of the game and how it could impact retail. I don't know. Just you saying the ONLY reason they are doing something is hella wrong. You don't know.

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Alternative legacyphobe fanfictions.

Hey do you care to expand upon this into an actual reply or is it just to insult me and nothing else?

[rda]

The main factors Blizzard will be using to assess whether legacy servers is worth creating is demand, and cost to create and maintain. Its obvious without question that there is a market for Legacy servers, its just a question of how big that demand is. But most importantly, the cost of creating these servers to operate to Blizzards standards appears to be very high... and im sure it is this factor that is the ONLY reason Blizzard havent moved forward on Legacy servers.

I think so too.

Fragmentation, etc, is perhaps solved by having the same sub cover all types of servers - want to play current last addon? feel free. want to play vanilla? feel free, it's all covered, there is no distinction between players playing on different types of servers, it's like PVE servers and PVP servers, you can mix and match.

Progression, ie, "ok, fine, we have vanilla servers, we will either open all content at once or will be following patches, but what happens when vanilla ends?" is solved by the same thing - when vanilla ends, you can go play live. Or maybe TBC, if they make servers for that.

But the development side of launching it all with somewhat sane code / data isn't so easy.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, this entire discussion is really, really silly. A PS starts being illegal the second you install the software on your computer and download copyrighted assets which were reverse engineered from Blizzard. That's it. There are no shades of grey. It's illegal. The end.

Actually you are wrong and he was correct.

Yes it is illegal to actively use Blizzards copyrighted software to create your own servers... 100% illegal.

But its not even close to how illegal it is when you charge money and PROFIT from someone elses intellectual property... waaaaaaay worse.

And its this distinction why Blizzard havent taken these illegal servers to court, theyre not profiting from what theyre doing. Theyre simply dedicated fans who wanna play old skool Wow.

[Kyanion]

Actually you are wrong and he was correct.

Yes it is illegal to actively use Blizzards copyrighted software to create your own servers... 100% illegal.

But its not even close to how illegal it is when you charge money and PROFIT from someone elses intellectual property... waaaaaaay worse.

And its this distinction why Blizzard havent taken these illegal servers to court, theyre not profiting from what theyre doing. Theyre simply dedicated fans who wanna play old skool Wow.

Umm servers that take donations are just as guilty as ones with cash shops. Many of the 'free' PS aren't actually free when it is being viewed in that light. Remember Nost was a donation based PS. If a PS takes ANY money no matter where it goes they are profiting, even if the money is just going to a company to pay for the server SOMEONE is making a buck. I don't know if there is a version of 'worse' when it comes to charging and donations as I don't have a legal background.

[rda]

Actually you are wrong and he was correct.

Yes it is illegal to actively use Blizzards copyrighted software to create your own servers... 100% illegal.

But its not even close to how illegal it is when you charge money and PROFIT from someone elses intellectual property... waaaaaaay worse.

And its this distinction why Blizzard havent taken these illegal servers to court, theyre not profiting from what theyre doing. Theyre simply dedicated fans who wanna play old skool Wow.

In other words, there ARE shades of grey here.

[voidillusion]

Umm servers that take donations are just as guilty as ones with cash shops. Many of the 'free' PS aren't actually free when it is being viewed in that light. Remember Nost was a donation based PS. If a PS takes ANY money no matter where it goes they are profiting, even if the money is just going to a company to pay for the server SOMEONE is making a buck. I don't know if there is a version of 'worse' when it comes to charging and donations as I don't have a legal background.

Both are ilegal period, but one thing is to acept donations to cover expenses, and the other is to profit piggybacking other's IP, it's like crossing the street on the wrong spot, or selling dope, both are illegal.

[Deleted]

Also I do NOT think that is the ONLY reason why these servers do not exist.

Well, youre wrong.... because it is the ONLY reason.

Blizzard have demonstrated TIME AND AGAIN that they dont make any moves unless theres dollar signs. Theyve never done a single 'free giveaway' for the dedicated longserving fans... and THAT is telling as fukk.

People who have a wider gaming circle than Wow know fully well that other games have given away loads of free stuff to their fanbase to say thanks... Blizzard never has.

This is true since Activision got involved... and THAT says all you need to know.

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In other words, there ARE shades of grey here.

Yep... and Blizzard knows it.

They dont wanna look like total assholes and take these guys to court because theyre massive Wow fans afterall. That would be extremely bad for Blizzard PR.

And like we have already said, none of these servers exist to make money... theyre fanmade servers.