AOTC should be rewarded at the end of a patch.

[krl]

I don't have ATOC, cause I can't be arsed to wipe 100 times on Guldan, but if I get into ATOC group, I will pull top 5 dps, won't die to shit mechanics, and actually do things right.

I'm curious about what makes you think that. There are good players who have been farming this boss for two months, got the gear that comes with it, and could do the fight with their eyes closed. Why wouldn't they perform better than players who are inexperienced on the fight ?

[roahn the warlock]

I'm curious about what makes you think that. There are good players who have been farming this boss for two months, got the gear that comes with it, and could do the fight with their eyes closed. Why wouldn't they perform better than players who are inexperienced on the fight ?

Because I've done it, fake achivement man. I've been in several Guldan groups. There's always one dude with the achivement dpsing too close to the tank, or 10 dps not soaking souls.

[Riistov]

People will always look for a way to make sure their group mates are competent.

[Tapzer]

My best advice for you to get it, equip all your high ilvl gear. and i just kept applying for guldan groups until i finally got accepted. I just said i know the fight inside and out and said if i personally make to just kick me. When i finally got into a group the leader said first mistake i was out. Obviously i didnt make one because the fight is actually very easy. Got my AOTC and now finding groups is a breeze.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Nothing is more fustrating than normal/heroic groups asking for AOTC, so I gotta bust out the fake achievement addon and hope they don't armory me.

Seems like you identified and solved your own problem in a single sentence. As for what you're actually trying to propose, you won't find an in game solution to solve a human problem.

[Marrilaife]

Because i dont wanna commit to a guild of tryhard people with delusions..I cant go back to having to deal with mediocre players that because they can kill a few mythic bosses they suddenly think they are Method/Paragon/Nihilum or whatever is the top guild at the time but at the same time they require 100 wipes and die to the same shit over and over..I grew up.

Funny part is I've never seen worse "tryhards" than pug community "must have over 9000 ilvl, curve and proof of dick size to enter, don't suck, noobs will be kicked" etc. descriptions and then they keep wiping 6h on gul'dan while those "mediocre players" in a guild can clear the whole HC NH in 2-3 hours tops, sometimes less. And yes, I was checking logs of a few "mediocre guilds that killed a few mythic bosses" and most of them rarely wipe on any hc boss, in a 10/10 clear they have 1-2 wipes tops, if they still bother to clear HC these days.

Problem with pugs is they're uncoordinated mess, people don't communicate, don't discuss tactics, most people lie or stay silent when they don't know jack squat so they don't get kicked, and just try to do "leet dps" instead of mechanics, so you usually wipe to stupid shit like no one killing eyes on gul'dan or no one soaking souls. And "raid leaders" in pugs rarely hold people accountable for not doing mechanics, usually they only whine at people who did low dps or died, so ofc everyone tries to skip doing mechanics so they don't die and don't lose dps... Catch 22.

[Deleted]

Yeah ilvl. I imagine most people in 900+ know what they are doing as well as, if not better than someone with a heroic guldan kill.

Wrong. If they did, they would have heroic guldan by now on atleast 1 character.

[Benssax]

Funny part is I've never seen worse "tryhards" than pug community "must have over 9000 ilvl, curve and proof of dick size to enter, don't suck, noobs will be kicked" etc. descriptions and then they keep wiping 6h on gul'dan while those "mediocre players" in a guild can clear the whole HC NH in 2-3 hours tops, sometimes less. And yes, I was checking logs of a few "mediocre guilds that killed a few mythic bosses" and most of them rarely wipe on any hc boss, in a 10/10 clear they have 1-2 wipes tops, if they still bother to clear HC these days.

Problem with pugs is they're uncoordinated mess, people don't communicate, don't discuss tactics, most people lie or stay silent when they don't know jack squat so they don't get kicked, and just try to do "leet dps" instead of mechanics, so you usually wipe to stupid shit like no one killing eyes on gul'dan or no one soaking souls. And "raid leaders" in pugs rarely hold people accountable for not doing mechanics, usually they only whine at people who did low dps or died, so ofc everyone tries to skip doing mechanics so they don't die and don't lose dps... Catch 22.

Epeen wars in Pugs man, thats all it is.

[Jargathnan]

So back in TBC/WotLK, when I would be putting together pug groups for alt-runs, I'd armory every single applicant. I'd either approve or deny them based on gear (which, especially then, told me if they had done said content on that toon).

Now, in WoD/Legion, I review ilvl and linked achievements for the pertinent content.

Comparing the two- it's easier to get into one of my groups now than it would've been a few expansions back. You can drive ilvl up with Mythic+ gear and legendaries, but not have the correct gear. And you can easily fake achievements if you're desperate enough.

Point to my little story: this isn't a new trend. It has been a fact of life when playing WoW for many years. And it's a trend that has stuck around for a reason: people are willing to subject themselves to learning curves, wipes, mistakes, repair bills, frustration, and general disdain when they're with people they like (i.e. their guild). But that willingness typically doesn't extend to randoms. And I don't think there's anything wrong with this. In my scenario, if I'm pugging out a few spots for an alt run through NH, I'm not eager to help a handful of people learn the fights. I'm there to clear the content and gear up my alt.

Now, what I don't like are wholly unrealistic expectations. If I'm putting together an H-NH clear, and my goal is for it to be painless for all, I would consider AotC reasonable. I would consider wanting 895+ (equipped) geared players reasonable too. Now, when I am putting together a N-NH run, neither would be reasonable, in my opinion.

Also- none of this means people who pass the ilvl/achievement requirement are even good. That's perfectly well understood. I've pugged in well-geared, supposedly well-experienced, DPS who have under-performed even compared to the worse of standards. And I've seen under-geared, inexperienced players give a group a run for their money. But there's no indicator for whether a player is that exception or not. In the very least I can rely on the idea that gear and experience will carry some semblance of meaning. It may be wrong in the end, but the odds are more favorable than taking a chance on every applicant that queues up.

[glowpipe]

Ilvl doesn't matter, you could have great ilvl and be utter shite because you got lucky with titanforges. I always armoury people before inviting them to mine and my friends' groups.

This exactly. I was lucky on my warrior. Got to 900ilvl in a few weeks with spamming m+. Played like shit. Then i put in the work and learned the class. Still played like shit. Olol.

[potis]

Funny part is I've never seen worse "tryhards" than pug community "must have over 9000 ilvl, curve and proof of dick size to enter, don't suck, noobs will be kicked" etc. descriptions and then they keep wiping 6h on gul'dan while those "mediocre players" in a guild can clear the whole HC NH in 2-3 hours tops, sometimes less. And yes, I was checking logs of a few "mediocre guilds that killed a few mythic bosses" and most of them rarely wipe on any hc boss, in a 10/10 clear they have 1-2 wipes tops, if they still bother to clear HC these days.

Yes but you can see the quality of a pug by many different things, what i mean is dedicating 3 of my nights to raiding to have what i mentioned versus whenever i feel like it, thats the difference.

I dont wanna dedicate 200 hours only to reach a boss where half the guild requires 100 hours of wiping to learn because of whatever reason, i cant be bothered.

Thats why, casual HC raiding with casual guild and pugging when i wanna do more and faster

[roahn the warlock]

Yes but you can see the quality of a pug by many different things, what i mean is dedicating 3 of my nights to raiding to have what i mentioned versus whenever i feel like it, thats the difference.

I dont wanna dedicate 200 hours only to reach a boss where half the guild requires 100 hours of wiping to learn because of whatever reason, i cant be bothered.

Thats why, casual HC raiding with casual guild and pugging when i wanna do more and faster

You know it's funny, I would legitly have better luck back in SoO with less geared people on Garrosh than people in massive heroic gear. To the point that for the heirloom farms I would avoid getting anyone above 455 (I think that's what it was) Because for some reason, despite their gear, they sucked.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

AOTC does not mean the random stranger in your pug queue will properly execute mechanics on Gul'dan, but if you put all the applicants who have it in one group and all the ones who don't in another, I'll take my chances with the former.

[Soluna]

Get your big boy pants on and create a group on your own to get the curve. Think of it as a challenge.

I started playing the game 9-10 days ago, 880 ilvl, with 32 Artifact traits from back in november that I quitted due to personal reasons. 2 days ago I EARNED AotC: Gul'dan. What did I do? I spammed M+ for the start of the week, jumped to 895 ilvl, and created a curve only run. I set that requirement because I want people who won't fuck up, just like I feel like I will not fuck up, and eventually get my curve achievement. A few hours later I had my curve because I played flawlessly and led the raid correctly by taking a look at icy veins/fatboss guides.

I am still 895 ilvl, soon 41 traits (not unlocked last elite trait yet), and have curve now. That means that I can finally start signing up for HC NH groups without much effort, and by just linking my achievement. Sure, you might say I was boosted, but a boosted person won't be top 4 in the meters with 10-15 ilvls less, without last elite trait and no tier pieces or best legendaries, and execute the fight flawlessly. If that is boosted in your book, then so be it. The premade finder is a powerful tool. I've been getting my curve achievements with it ever since it got introduced with little effort. As I said, put up your big boi pants.

[melodramocracy]

Get your big boy pants on and create a group on your own to get the curve. Think of it as a challenge.

I started playing the game 9-10 days ago, 880 ilvl, with 32 Artifact traits from back in november that I quitted due to personal reasons. 2 days ago I EARNED AotC: Gul'dan. What did I do? I spammed M+ for the start of the week, jumped to 895 ilvl, and created a curve only run. I set that requirement because I want people who won't fuck up, just like I feel like I will not fuck up, and eventually get my curve achievement. A few hours later I had my curve because I played flawlessly and led the raid correctly by taking a look at icy veins/fatboss guides.

I am still 895 ilvl, soon 41 traits (not unlocked last elite trait yet), and have curve now. That means that I can finally start signing up for HC NH groups without much effort, and by just linking my achievement. Sure, you might say I was boosted, but a boosted person won't be top 4 in the meters with 10-15 ilvls less, without last elite trait and no tier pieces or best legendaries, and execute the fight flawlessly. If that is boosted in your book, then so be it. The premade finder is a powerful tool. I've been getting my curve achievements with it ever since it got introduced with little effort. As I said, put up your big boi pants.

TLDR: you got carried, and were very fortunate with drops.

[darkwarrior42]

People will always look for a way to make sure their group mates are competent.

They'll also inevitably come up with quick to use metrics that don't actually measure skill, then take the presence of poor players in their group as proof of the terrible state of the community, rather than a reflection of the unreliable nature of their metrics.

[Ztranger]

Well checking warcraft logs is probably closest thing to doing a fair assessment of players, but that would take way too much time currently. If I'm in a mood for making a good raid I check armory using an link addon, and go for ppl who killed the boss a couple of times, usually gets the job done.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Don't be silly. I dislike AotC just as much as you do, but remove it and people would find other ways to check your progress.

Quick guide to AotC:
-Be decent at the game
-Work your ilvl up through mythic+, amass high ilvl things
-Try to get four set pieces, getting invited to heroic Nighthold by using FakeAchiever to pretend you killed Gul'dan
-When your ilvl is 900 and you feel confident, tackle Gul'dan. Link your fake achievement, pull your weight during the fight, and no one will complain when they see the achievement pop. If not, just pretend you got it on another character first.

The key is "selling yourself". You can pretend you have the achievement, as long as your pretense is credible. That's why you gotta walk in knowing what to do.

[Soluna]

TLDR: you got carried, and were very fortunate with drops.

I said that I raid lead this, and was higher than most of the dpsers, who had much higher ilvl. I made no mistakes across the entire run of the 10 bosses. I didn't get lucky with drops, I ran a lot of M+ 10 or higher in order to get this gear. Part of my ilvl upgrades was a second legendary, and upgrading my first legendary from 910 to 940.

TLDR: You lack the brain capacity to understand what 'carry' means.

[Deleted]

Curve doesn`t mean anything to a good RL, me and my friends are running HC NH with pugs every week since we don`t want to join a guild atm. We have had plenty of ppl who have gotten their achives in the end aswell, usually ppl who get it are good enough to get it and deserve it, we have had shit tons of ppl who`s ilvl is over 900 + Curved and they suck so bad that it is just easier to kick and replace them. If RL cares enough then those with fake achives will be busted really quick, just armory or wowprogress, easy to check them out and have had those aswell. I am lucky enough that i have plenty of friends who are playing the game and willing to take me in to get curve but i know the struggle when you don`t have the achive that ppl ask. Easiest way to get into groups is just fake achive or spam q when you are lucky enough to get into the group.