Subtlety PTR Notes

[Deleted]

According to PTR wowdb, sprint is a 2 minute cooldown at rank 1:

http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/2983-sprint

However, at rank 2 its cooldown is reduced by 60 seconds:

http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/231691-sprint

That's probably where the confusion lies

[zaino]

Im actually having a harder time to fit all 4 gcds in a shadow dance, gotta time it well now or else if i do it half way through a gcd can only get 3 in.

as suggested i believe earlier in this thread are you macroing ss into dance?

[mcrx]

According to PTR wowdb, sprint is a 2 minute cooldown at rank 1:

http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/2983-sprint

However, at rank 2 its cooldown is reduced by 60 seconds:

http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/231691-sprint

That's probably where the confusion lies

we have 2 ranks of Sprint?

[Mafic]

we have 2 ranks of Sprint?

Apparently Rogue twinking is over powered lol.

[Jaronicity]

New sub notes: apologies for formatting. I'm posting from a mobile

Subtlety
Nightblade Finishing move that infects the target with shadowy energy, dealing Shadow damage over time and causing attacks against the target to reduce movement speed by 50% for 8 sec. Lasts longer per combo point. 1 point : [ 4 + 552% 360% of AP ] over 8 sec 2 points: [ 5 + 690% 450% of AP ] over 10 sec 3 points: [ 6 + 828% 540% of AP ] over 12 sec 4 points: [ 7 + 966% 630% of AP ] over 14 sec 5 points: [ 8 + 1,104% of AP ] over 16 sec 720% of AP ] over 16 sec You deal 15% increased damage to enemies afflicted by your Nightblade Rogue - Subtlety Spec. 25 Energy. Melee range. Instant.
Relentless Strikes Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to generate 40 Energy. Rogue - Subtlety Spec. generate 5 Energy per combo point spent. Rogue - Subtlety Spec.
Shuriken Combo Name changed from "Focused Shurikens" to "Shuriken Combo". Shuriken Storm increases the damage of your next Eviscerate by 20% 10% for each enemy hit beyond beyond the first. Stacks up to 5 times. Rogue - Subtlety Spec.

Subtlety
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 1) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 5 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 2 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 2) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 10 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 4 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 3) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 15 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 6 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 4) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 20 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 8 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 5) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 25 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 10 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 6) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 30 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 12 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 7) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 35 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 14 Energy.
Energetic Stabbing (Rank 8) Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike have a 25% chance to refund 40 Energy. Backstab, Shadowstrike, and Cheap Shot have a 50% chance to refund 16 Energy.
Shadow's Whisper (Rank 1) Shadow Techniques also grants you 5 Energy. 8 Energy.
Weak Point (Rank 1) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 1)" to "Weak Point (Rank 1)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 5%.
Weak Point (Rank 2) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 2)" to "Weak Point (Rank 2)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 10%.
Weak Point (Rank 3) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 3)" to "Weak Point (Rank 3)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 15%.
Weak Point (Rank 4) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 4)" to "Weak Point (Rank 4)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 20%.
Weak Point (Rank 5) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 5)" to "Weak Point (Rank 5)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 25%.
Weak Point (Rank 6) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 6)" to "Weak Point (Rank 6)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 30%.
Weak Point (Rank 7) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 7)" to "Weak Point (Rank 7)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 35%.
Weak Point (Rank 8) Name changed from "Etched in Shadow (Rank 8)" to "Weak Point (Rank 8)". Increases the effectiveness of Symbols of Death by 0%. critical strike damage of Backstab and Shadowstrike by 40%.

[elfporn]

Looks like they're pulling energy gen out of dance and shadowstrike returns and putting it into shadow tech. As well as adding a little bit of crit value with that weak point trait. I'd rather see something else to add crit or haste synergy.

I also like them moving damage out of nightblade ticks and putting into a 15% dmg increase on nb.

It's too bad they limited the shuriken storm focus buff, saw it coming though.

[davesignal]

- Energy regen needs to be addressed. It's too dependant on being in Stealth. A simple solution that comes to mind is to put Backstab on Energetic Stabbing. I think it's fine if they need to tone down the damage of Backstab for that.

Somebody give this man a cookie.

[Shivers1]

Relentless Strikes now causes your finishing moves to generate 5 Energy per combo point spent.
Developers’ notes: This improves Energy capping situations and an issue where with Deeper Stratagem (talent), you would sometimes get 80 Energy back on a 6-combo point finisher.

How is a straight-up nerf supposed to 'improve' anything.

[elfporn]

How is a straight-up nerf supposed to 'improve' anything.

step back and look at the rest of the changes.

They're pulling energy out of dance(ES change) and relentless strikes and putting it into shadow tech in an effort to reduce energy capping and smooth energy gen over the entirety of the rotation instead of being ultra reliant on dances/vanishes for energy gen.

It was becoming very problematic with the new traits.

[Jaronicity]

It looks like it should pan out or the idea should, at least. Less energy but more frequently should make not being in stealth less "omg when is my next dance". Also curious about the gloom blade buff if that might make itself into a viable build.

[Deleted]

It looks like it should pan out or the idea should, at least. Less energy but more frequently should make not being in stealth less "omg when is my next dance". Also curious about the gloom blade buff if that might make itself into a viable build.

Gloomblade buff is just to compensate the earlier Backstab buff that wasn't changed and therefore not notified in these changes. Backstab got an overall 30% buff and the bonus when attacking from behind reduced from 30% to 20%.

Old: x *1.3 = 1.3x
New: x*1.3*1.2 = 1.56x

So overall Backstab is 20% stronger (if from behind, since the old +30% from behind and the new overall 30% buff would cross each other out). Sure, Gloomblade buff was a bit stronger in comparison, but I still doubt it. It's still a "lazyness"-talent and therefore never wanted to dominate - normally.

-----

The problem I see with energy regeneration right now is:

Live server: Shuriken Storm (-35) -> Eviscerate (-35) => Relentless Strikes "48" Energy in return (40 reliant, 20% for another 40 -> "8" ). With the 2 globals of basic regen in mind, that sums up to -70 vs. 68 energy. A bit of haste and a bit of human tolerance would make this a more than even trade off.

With the upcoming change it will be: ShurStorm (-35) -> Eviscerate(-35) => 25-30 Relentless Strikes (depending on 5 or 6 CPs) Energy in return. With basic regen it would be ~20 more energy. So -70 vs. +45 to +50 in return.

Our Single Target AoE does not get anything from the Energetic Stabbing buff, but suffers from the Relentless Strikes nerf.


In general, I see the whole mechanic of "instead of spread AoE, Subtlety is focussing more dmg into one target" as problematic.

Eventhough a fight like Skorpyron isn't to be considered important but it's fights like this that would support an heavy abuse to get useful single target gain besides the CP overflow to nuke a boss. That's double dipping its profit.
It could even get to the point where we will maybe see tactics like "those trash mobs aren't doing much, let the Sub Rogue abuse them like one of those french girls, Leo".

On the one hand, it seems cool and interesting, but I really don't want Sub to end up as a spec for "that certain situation" since we will be tuned with that design in mind.

[Shivers1]

You'll also need an energy regen proc now to get four SS and an eviscerate into SD even if you're standing at max distance with the boots.

1. Cast SD = 100 energy, t=0s
2. -40 (SS) + 10 (Regen) + 5 (Boots) = 75 energy, t=1s
3. -40 (SS) + 10 (Regen) + 5 (Boots = 50 energy, t=2s
4. -35 (Evis) + 10 (Regen) + 25 (RS) = 50 energy, t=3s
5. -40 (SS) + 10 (Regen) + 5 (Boots) = 25 energy, t=4s

And at this point you only have another second left in dance with 25 energy remaining. So unless you get a proc you're pretty much screwed.

Even if you used a 6 CP evis in 4. and got 30 energy back from RS you'll still be hitting the last SS right at the end of dance, which is probably going to fail unpredictably due to latency.

[Kwakman]

And that is exactly where the Goremaw trait comes in I guess. You'l be up 35 energy at that point.

[Shivers1]

And that is exactly where the Goremaw trait comes in I guess. You'l be up 35 energy at that point.

You can only use Goremaw's like once a minute lol.

[Maelstrom51]

3x Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance will be the new norm I suppose.

I also wonder how these energy changes will affect AoE.

[Seliar]

You'll also need an energy regen proc now to get four SS and an eviscerate into SD even if you're standing at max distance with the boots.

1. Cast SD = 100 energy, t=0s
2. -40 (SS) + 10 (Regen) + 5 (Boots) = 75 energy, t=1s
3. -40 (SS) + 10 (Regen) + 5 (Boots = 50 energy, t=2s
4. -35 (Evis) + 10 (Regen) + 25 (RS) = 50 energy, t=3s
5. -40 (SS) + 10 (Regen) + 5 (Boots) = 25 energy, t=4s

And at this point you only have another second left in dance with 25 energy remaining. So unless you get a proc you're pretty much screwed.

Even if you used a 6 CP evis in 4. and got 30 energy back from RS you'll still be hitting the last SS right at the end of dance, which is probably going to fail unpredictably due to latency.

You can pick MoSh and you will have plenty of energy for 4 ss and 1 finisher if you want to go with subterfuge even if you don't have boots. If you have boots and 3 ES relics you will be able to squeeze in 4 ss and 1 finisher most of the time with one ES and one ST proc so you can pick any other t6 talent and you will be able to play almost the same as now.

[Shivers1]

You can pick MoSh and you will have plenty of energy for 4 ss and 1 finisher

Yeah, and then I'll have my dance charge generation effectively cut in half.

If you have boots and 3 ES relics you will be able to squeeze in 4 ss and 1 finisher most of the time with one ES and one ST proc

That's still pretty bad.

[Kalador]

Change are looking very good so far again, moving energy in shadow dance reward good pooling gameplay, the new 15%dmg on NB will reward good prepping (remember that NB is actually very short without Tset)

The nerf to the shuriken trait was written in the sky and i think the focus is more on the idea than the tuning, love the idea

And the change to energetic stabbing to a 50% proc is fucking great.

[Emophia]

With these changes it looks like we could get a big phat shadowdances playstyle again, looking forward to it.

[Seliar]

That's still pretty bad.

Just because you won't be able to maintain the same playstyle and rotation after the patch doesn't mean that the spec will be bad. There will be choices which can't be said about current sub spec and more importantly the boots won't be mandatory to play the spec competitivly.