Look how great Odynn is! (warrior hall Odyn lore)

[Aucald]

Yes, the Val'kyr definitely are undead. I was thinking about the Valarjar instead. The Val'kyr isn't counted as Valarjar if I'm not wrong, as Chronicle stated that "Their spirits would be transported to the fortress and given mighty new storm-forged bodies. These champions - these Valarjar - would serve as Azeroth's foremost guardians". The Valarjar, at least, don't seem to have some of the common negative traits of the undeath (weak to the Light, could end up in a mindless state, being hostile towards the living, not-so-healthy-looking bodies, etc.)

I think people weren't calling it ok (at least I didn't), but more about that the entire plan isn't as bad as it seems. His actions towards the original Val'kyr was terrible, but what he did to the Valarjar is very acceptable and he truly did it for Azeroth instead of just his own gains.

The Valarjar seem more or less like Titanforged in that they are automatons - Stormforged bodies housing the spirits or souls of deceased Vrykul champions. The binding seems to be done with something that is either close to or is the Light as opposed to Shadow-based Necromancy - just as Odyn's Val'kyr appear to use Light-based magic themselves as opposed to the Shadow magic of the Lich King's Val'kyr. Much of Odyn's aesthetic seems to be emphasizing the old adage: "Light is not Good." He is pro-Azeroth and works in the defense of the Titans' goals of protection and preservation, but his means are questionable or downright anti-heroic at times.

[Zandalariprelate]

It still darkens your soul, no matter how many times your Alzheimer's golden boy screams valor at you.

The new valkyrs are beings of light, just look the skovald daughter from fel valkyr to be purified only no one wanted to be the proto valkyr

[Mehrunes]

I wonder if your unable to comprehend​ that those who betrayed Slyvanus also had troops under them. It wasn't just Putress and Varimathras, it was a whole group of apothecaries. If you want to count random unnamed val'kyr and Vrykul as then the unnamed troops of those who betrayed Slyvanus should also count. Godfrey had troops in SFK, Koltira had troops(who betrayed Slyvanus by listening to Koltira). Galen had troops aswell. Your point is shit.

Given how it's still better than yours, I can't help but wonder what does it make yours. Hmm, few entire clans of Vrykul. A small fragment of a sub-faction of Forsaken that's basically WoW's version of scientists, which is bound to be a small part of the total population. Whichever could be larger. There's no evidence of any inhabitants of SFK other than Godfrey, Ashbury and Walden being ex-Forsaken. Same with Galen's troops. No one else has been punished at Andorhal. Because other than the player no one else was present at Koltira's meeting with Thassarian. But of course, you don't know that.

Confusing the storm forged with the Titan forged isn't a big a deal. But I thanks for showing us how triggered you get when anyone brings up how many times stupidfuck Slyvanus has been betrayed.

It is a big deal when you "confuse" things in each and every of your 651 nonsensical posts.

[Tripzzz]

Given how it's still better than yours, I can't help but wonder what does it make yours. Hmm, few entire clans of Vrykul. A small fragment of a sub-faction of Forsaken that's basically WoW's version of scientists, which is bound to be a small part of the total population. Whichever could be larger. There's no evidence of any inhabitants of SFK other than Godfrey, Ashbury and Walden being ex-Forsaken. Same with Galen's troops. No one else has been punished at Andorhal. Because other than the player no one else was present at Koltira's meeting with Thassarian. But of course, you don't know that.




It is a big deal when you "confuse" things in each and every of your 651 nonsensical posts.

Having the Apothecaries betray you( while their lab is literally next door to your throne) is like having the nuclear scientists of your military betray you instead of your soldiers. They many be small in number, but it only takes a few to blight the fuck out of larger armies. Not only that but every single Apothecary would have either been in on it, or be dumb as fuck to not realize what was happening.

The undead at SFK had to be ex Forsaken. You need to provide an explanation as to how Godfrey got so many undead troops into SFK(which happened right after silverpine). Godfrey is not a necromancer and there is only one place he could have gotten so many undead in such a short amount of time.

Galen and his troops were raised by Slyvanus to reclaim his kingdom. Galen even says he was loyal to Slyvanus and he was claiming the land for her. Do you think he cleared the trolls and​ ogres by himself? That means his troops were loyal to her, then betrayed her.

No one else was punished because Koltira was the commander. That doesn't mean those troops didn't betray her. Koltira's order was a betrayal to the Forsaken, and the forsaken under his command followed that order.

I love how you ignored the Slyvanus at the broken shore part. I guess you couldn't think of anything to say. Hilarious.

Nice hyperbole.

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The new valkyrs are beings of light, just look the skovald daughter from fel valkyr to be purified only no one wanted to be the proto valkyr

I'm pretty sure even the original Val'kyr were beings of Light. It was the lich King who twisted them into the dark ones the Forsaken use.

[Leodok]

Why do you keep mistaking Odyn for a God?

The vrykul call him a god, he's based on a god, and he's more powerful than many "gods" in wow (such as the wild gods).

[Teri]

I'm pretty sure even the original Val'kyr were beings of Light. It was the lich King who twisted them into the dark ones the Forsaken use.

Original Odyn's created Valkyr are yellow (Eyir/Hyrja). Helya's / Lich king Valkyr are white.

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The vrykul call him a god, he's based on a god, and he's more powerful than many "gods" in wow (such as the wild gods).

Of course he's one of the most powerful beings on the planet, leader over all the other Titan keepers. He just was trapped for eons until now.

Wild gods got their powers from Freya.

[CthulhuFhtagn]

@Tripzzz

Is there a reason you consistently keep writing Slyvanus instead of Sylvanas?

[Mehrunes]

Some would say she gives them a choice and that is enough - it is more than Odyn did for Helya, or the first of the Valarjar before being sealed into the Halls of Valor. But then, on the other hand, Odyn's goal was the protection of Azeroth whereas Sylvanas' goals were the satisfying of Forsaken military objectives. Do the ends justify the means for Odyn? Does offering a delayed choice wash Sylvanas' hands in the matter of using the Val'kyr to create temporary or permanent Forsaken shock-troopers? No one can really answer those questions objectively.

The choice is delayed only in case of those risen in battle though. Which is a minority of new Forsaken. Especially after Sylvanas lost quite a bit of her Val'kyr and is likely to keep them out of harm's way if she can help it. Unless one were to argue that the choice is delayed because they don't ask the resurrected until the resurrection like few brilliant minds have done so on this forum in the past, but that spark of genius is deliberately ignoring the fact that corpses aren't people and don't have choices, and that the Val'kyr don't have Ouija boards lying around.

explain your reasoning. Odyn never gave his first val'kyr or Helya a choice. And then he bound them to his will. Its only after he successfully formed a cult around him that the Vrykul do it willingly.

TIL Sylvanas' use of necromancy is worse than the Lich King's. Some of the savants on this forum never cease to amaze me.

[Arrashi]

I don't think people falling under the sway of the cult of the damned is a good example of the Vrykul not treating Odyn like a god. Besides Arthas pretty much offered everything Odyn offered.

Its more like brainwashed people being easily influenced. Who would know ?

[Mehrunes]

They don't have a choice because they're unable to make one. They're not "forced", they follow their feral nature. When they calm the fuck down and become able to make choices than they do. Sure, this situation makes them malleable and conveniently exploitable but it has nothing to do with being "forced", making your comparison bogus and pretentious. But that shouldn't surprise anyone.

Ẕũⱡꝅħⱥꬼ pls, be mindful of your tone and considerate of other posters' opinions while expressing your own.

I assume he considers the Val'kyr part of his Valajar no?

They are undead, Chronicle explains in detail what happened to Heyla and if you are getting a new body for your soul, you'd still be considered undead. The whole argument kinda turns into bullshit because suddenly its ok if they get a new body?

To use Qualia's wording from their later post, Mogu Stonebord weren't as bad as they seem. Heyyy, new bodies. Not undead undead. There may be a slight problem of their souls being often unwilling and those who were willing being raised in a culture that deliberately painted it as something absolutely swell (you know, like Vrykul, with some similarities to how Cult of the Damned was bombarded with undeath = communist Utopia propaganda as well), but at least they don't have the common negative traits of undeath. It's not as bad as it seems.

It comes down to people arguing that what Odyn does is ok because he tricked everyone into thinking its a great army.

That army will make Azeroth great again!

The worst kind of arrogance feeds on itself and becomes a revised personal history. Odyn may not be consciously revising history to make himself seem great, but actually remembering it the way he wants to rather than the way it truly happened. In other words, he's actually fooled himself into thinking it all happened the way he says it did.

But that'd imply Odyn is delusional and he's too awesome, amazing and VALORous to succumb to such mental issues.

[Qualia]

To use Qualia's wording from their later post, Mogu Stonebord weren't as bad as they seem. Heyyy, new bodies. Not undead undead. There may be a slight problem of their souls being often unwilling and those who were willing being raised in a culture that deliberately painted it as something absolutely swell (you know, like Vrykul, with some similarities to how Cult of the Damned was bombarded with undeath = communist Utopia propaganda as well), but at least they don't have the common negative traits of undeath. It's not as bad as it seems.

Yes, the *method* of the Mogu wasn't actually so bad essentially (even though their spiritbinding's spell might not be the exact same as Odyn / the Pantheon's - which might have changed everything). What was bad was that they robbed even unwilling innocent soul from their free wills. That wasn't the case with Odyn's Valarjar or the Pantheon's Titanforged army. What Odyn did to the original *Val'kyrs* (who aren't Valarjar) was undeniably bad, but what he did to the Valarjar wasn't - even among the first generation of the Vrykul, I believe there wasn't any indication that any Vrykul was against becoming a Valarjar (they just weren't so hot to take the crappy part of becoming a Val'kyr). That was what I was talking about/ Unless we are going to consider the Pantheon terrible beings now (they also put spirits into titanforged bodies to make the titanforged armies and "remodel" worlds that don't go according to their plans), what Odyn did to the Valarjar wasn't as bad as they seem. It's a case of gray morality and that the intentions & the end might give some justifications to the means (not completely justify the means, though).

If that part of your post was just irony (which I'm quite sure it was), I suggest leaving the biases aside and look at details of something before criticizing it. If they don't have common negative trait of the undeath, what makes it so different from reincarnating into a new body?

[Aucald]

The choice is delayed only in case of those risen in battle though. Which is a minority of new Forsaken. Especially after Sylvanas lost quite a bit of her Val'kyr and is likely to keep them out of harm's way if she can help it. Unless one were to argue that the choice is delayed because they don't ask the resurrected until the resurrection like few brilliant minds have done so on this forum in the past, but that spark of genius is deliberately ignoring the fact that corpses aren't people and don't have choices, and that the Val'kyr don't have Ouija boards lying around.

I think we've tangoed in this direction before, unless I'm missing my mark. I remember saying something akin to "it's the World of *War*craft, you would be hard-pressed to find the corpses and souls of individuals who hadn't died in battle." Especially true for Lordaeron and the greater Eastern Kingdoms on the heels of the Second and Third Wars. But what I said about Sylvanas was less about the mechanics of the Val'kyr's power to raise new Forsaken and more about Sylvanas' rationale for doing so. Odyn, as despicable as he might be seen in some contexts, has a laudable goal in using the Val'kyr and the Valarjar to defend Azeroth from whatever would threaten it. His goals are noble, even his actions are questionable. Sylvanas, however, raises the Forsaken for her own goals - either in the short-term as troops to achieve her aims or in the longer-term as "arrows in quiver" against the dark fate that awaits her. The goal here is personal on her part, and she's fully aware of it.

I'm not actually casting aspersions on either being, though; I'm only asking the question that moral philosophers have asked since time immemorial. Altruism (Odyn) vs. enlightened self-interest (Sylvanas), and whether the ends truly do justify the means. The Forsaken who choose to remain *do* make the choice of their own free will, after all. Despite Sylvanas' aims she is still working towards the furtherance of her adopted kind.

[Friendlyimmolation]

@Tripzzz

Is there a reason you consistently keep writing Slyvanus instead of Sylvanas?

Because he thinks it's clever because sylvanas is a bitch or something.

[Frontenac]

The choice is delayed only in case of those risen in battle though. Which is a minority of new Forsaken. Especially after Sylvanas lost quite a bit of her Val'kyr and is likely to keep them out of harm's way if she can help it. Unless one were to argue that the choice is delayed because they don't ask the resurrected until the resurrection like few brilliant minds have done so on this forum in the past, but that spark of genius is deliberately ignoring the fact that corpses aren't people and don't have choices, and that the Val'kyr don't have Ouija boards lying around.

Yet, they were able to speak to Sylvanas after her suicide and offered her their help... Corpses aren't people, but their spirits still "live" in the afterlife that was prepared for them. They are ripped from that afterlife to be put back in their rotten bodies. Then they are given the choice. If they refuse, they are killed a second time, which is cruel.

I may be wrong, or maybe the lore has changed on the subject, but I remember reading somewhere that the souls of those afflicted by undeath are twisted and cut from the Light. Which means that only the Void awaits in the afterlife. If it's true, then Sylvanas' "choice" is rather crappy: serve me in undeath, or go to the Void.

[Kralljin]

Yet, they were able to speak to Sylvanas after her suicide and offered her their help... Corpses aren't people, but their spirits still "live" in the afterlife that was prepared for them. They are ripped from that afterlife to be put back in their rotten bodies.

I am not sure but i remember at least some quests that involved killing undead people and giving them rest (by killing their undead body).

At least the old Darrowshire quest comes to mind.

Point is, i am not sure if literally any soul that is unfortunate enough to become a victim of necromancy is bound to enter the void once released from the body.

[Golden Yak]

But that'd imply Odyn is delusional and he's too awesome, amazing and VALORous to succumb to such mental issues.

"I can not be arrogant, as that would be a flaw."

[Zulkhan]

If you knowingly place someone in a situation where they are unable to make a choice, you have effectively forced them. It's not hard to comprehend. Well, maybe for you it is.

Infracted.

Your point is still shit despite your twist. You made a convenient comparison and is blatantly flawed. The feral condition is a collateral effect no one can do shit about, it's not something purposely forced or intended to be that way. They're free to make a choice not when the Forsaken allow them to but when they themselves are able to. It's clearly not comparable to what Odyn did as you desperately tried to pretend.

But I think you should work a little on your impulses and words choice. Enjoy your infraction.

[Tripzzz]

Your point is still shit despite your twist. You made a convenient comparison and is blatantly flawed. The feral condition is a collateral effect no one can do shit about, it's not something purposely forced or intended to be that way. They're free to make a choice not when the Forsaken allow them to but when they themselves are able to. It's clearly not comparable to what Odyn did as you desperately tried to pretend.

But I think you should work a little on your impulses and words choice. Enjoy your infraction.

She forced them to turn undead against their will and manipulated them. The feral condition only occurs when they are raised the instant after they are killed in a tramatic way. Therefore it is preventable waiting a little bit before raising them. Raising them immediately after killing them is a Scourge tactic.

How petty, guess infractions mean alot to some folks. But that shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Combatbutler]

She forced them to turn undead againt their will and manipulated them. The feral condition only occurs when they are raised the instant after they are killed in a tramatic way. Therefore it is preventable waiting a little bit before raisng them. How petty, guess infractions mean alot to some folks. But that shouldn't surprise anyone.

Sylvanas is scum, Odyn on the other hand is just tiny bit worse in the raising the dead department, his mistake caused far more suffering and anguish on Azeroth than the forsaken up to this point, after all helya's descend to madness the creation of helheim are direct consequences of his vision for Azeroth.

Odyn wants to see the job of the titans done through any means necessary, you know we put another mighty titan creation down for that very reason, because we didn't like his methods and his name was Lei Shen.

[Tripzzz]

Sylvanas is scum, Odyn on the other hand is just tiny bit worse in the raising the dead department, his mistake caused far more suffering and anguish on Azeroth than the forsaken up to this point, after all helya's descend to madness the creation of helheim are direct consequences of his vision for Azeroth.

Odyn wants to see the job of the titans done through any means necessary, you know we put another mighty titan creation down for that very reason, because we didn't like his methods and his name was Lei Shen.

True but he did what he thought was best for Azeroth. Maybe if Lei Shen had given us a quest or two we wouldn't have killed him. Especially since Lei Shen wasn't​ really a bad guy.