Stat Growth and Legion, Another Stat Squish Incoming?

[effs]

When ToS comes out, we'll have items that are 100 ilvls higher than the previous tier. Which is too fast. They're concerned yet they make it worse each expac.

[Hctaz]

6 and 3% in ilevel increase, not power increase. duh.

But you're wrongly comparing these things. The baseline item level for Wrath was 200. That's the floor. You have to zero everything out to the baseline of the expansion or it doesn't even make sense. Legion's is odd but I would pick Normal mode or LFR EN for the baseline. The inflation is about the % of power gain now the percent of what 880 is to 905

[Sarevokcz]

But you're wrongly comparing these things. The baseline item level for Wrath was 200. That's the floor. You have to zero everything out to the baseline of the expansion or it doesn't even make sense. Legion's is odd but I would pick Normal mode or LFR EN for the baseline. The inflation is about the % of power gain now the percent of what 880 is to 905

ANY comparison between LK and legion is going to be wrong, the game is not the same, the gear is not the same and the scalling is not the same and it wont be, since we arent going back to one difficulty. one example is the fact, that epics had bigger stat budget than rares of the same ilevel, as in 200 blues were worse than 200 epics, thats not the case nowadays (since cata actually) so that itself already skews gear comparisons.

And frankly, this "we need squish yesterday" whining is getting old, unless youre running on comodore, it doesnt slow down your PC and if you get addon to compress numbers, it LITERALLY doesnt matter if you see numbers as 1200000, 1200k or 1.2M. the main reason for WoD squish was their inability to make boss HP higher than certain number, something, thats fixed now already.

[Hctaz]

ANY comparison between LK and legion is going to be wrong, the game is not the same, the gear is not the same and the scalling is not the same and it wont be, since we arent going back to one difficulty. one example is the fact, that epics had bigger stat budget than rares of the same ilevel, as in 200 blues were worse than 200 epics, thats not the case nowadays (since cata actually) so that itself already skews gear comparisons.

And frankly, this "we need squish yesterday" whining is getting old, unless youre running on comodore, it doesnt slow down your PC and if you get addon to compress numbers, it LITERALLY doesnt matter if you see numbers as 1200000, 1200k or 1.2M. the main reason for WoD squish was their inability to make boss HP higher than certain number, something, thats fixed now already.

Is it fixed now? Are you sure? Cuz I don't think it is. Plus it can cause issues anyway. Plus plus they already said they wanted to do a stat squish again before Legion or something but said they would wait until after Legion. So... it's coming.

[Deleted]

Blizzard stated that even before the last squish, there would be more to follow.

Unless they found another solution that they're happy with, there will almost certainly be one after Legion.

How about not increasing stats so extremely?

[Nathanyel]

Characters already seem demigod enough and doing 8234^245π.sqrt(3729/ωφ²) teraflops of dmg start to become silly.

You're only saying that because your character is only doing 8234^244π.sqrt(3729/ωφ²) teraflops of dmg.

[Onikaroshi]

Is it fixed now? Are you sure? Cuz I don't think it is. Plus it can cause issues anyway. Plus plus they already said they wanted to do a stat squish again before Legion or something but said they would wait until after Legion. So... it's coming.

They mentioned it a couple of times prior to fixing the health issues and not once since, there is zero guarantee that its still on the table. And there has been zero issues with bosses having greater than 2 billion hp

[Marston]

Instead of a simple stat squish I would much prefer an overall level squish. Bring us back down to level 60/70 or something similar. This would also allow Blizzard to consolidate several expansions to 1 leveling range. Something like, current level 1-60 content becomes 1-40, TBC and WotLK become 40-45, Cata and MoP become 45-50, WoD and Legion become 50-55 and the next expansion becomes 55-60. This would allow them on one hand to reduce the overall level, therefore also reduce the overall stats and by quite a bit more than what they did last time (for the simple reason of being level 60 instead of level 90, so these 30 extra levels we had at the end of MoP don't need their regular level up stat bonuses). This would ALSO allow them to give us new skills and other level up rewards "sooner", so we actually get back to the point where we would get something every 1-3 levels, and not have 5+ levels without a new skill, talent or something else.

[Schattenlied]

Yea, and that feels horrible, not being able to upgrade gear in a gear based game, thank God its not that way anymore. I want to replace all of my pre expansion gear during the leveling process. There's a reason I never bothered with gw2

GW2 is one thing, they don't even increase the level cap in expansions... completely different.

It felt good to me. I don't like that my gear becomes useless as soon as a new expansion comes out, I don't think new expansion gear should start to outpace final tier gear from the previous until ~2 lvls from the new cap... If you do make it replace early on, you get problems like we have now, where scaling is out of fucking control and world PvP has become a fucking joke, with current tier players being able to actually kill fresh 110s in one hit, one single hit, it's fucking absurd.

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I honestly don't see the big deal. It's not like EN is the newest raid of the xpac, of course it'll be outgeared by raiders by now, and will continue to be til the final raid of Legion, up til it's trivialised even more and undoubtedly soloable in the next xpac.

because it doesn't only effect PvE, that's why. World PvP is a fucking mess right now because of this shit.

[Onikaroshi]

GW2 is one thing, they don't even increase the level cap in expansions... completely different.

It felt good to me. I don't like that my gear becomes useless as soon as a new expansion comes out, I don't think new expansion gear should start to outpace final tier gear from the previous until ~2 lvls from the new cap... If you do make it replace early on, you get problems like we have now, where scaling is out of fucking control and world PvP has become a fucking joke, with current tier players being able to actually kill fresh 110s in one hit, one single hit, it's fucking absurd.

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because it doesn't only effect PvE, that's why. World PvP is a fucking mess right now because of this shit.

World PvP has been dead for YEARS don't pretend like legion killed it. It's not worth the time or effort.

[Nathanyel]

"World PvP" was never more than "let's find some vic- I mean opponents to battle with". Vanilla saw some organized PvP in certain areas, but battlegrounds rightfully soaked up that clientele. What remained was the common Ganker.

[Deleted]

I would say a total reset would be healthy. Doing 2-3 dmg with your 1h mace at 30hp. Or go even further and launch wow 2.0 already. =P

Characters already seem demigod enough and doing 8234^245π.sqrt(3729/ωφ²) teraflops of dmg start to become silly.

This. I'm a HUGE fan of smaller numbers in games like this, it gives a way better sense of character progression. Just make it so level 1 characters hit for 1-5 with abilities, then level 110's hit for 500-1000, so much clearer than 2.5 million crits with a bunch of 100k hits flying around etc.

[Deleted]

Not really that concerning. Regardless if you do say 250 damage to a mob with 25000 hp, or 2500 to a mob with 250000, it's still the same shit. Besides, I thought Blizzard said that we'd be getting a stat squish every few xpacs, or am I mistaken?

youre right we should measure our food in nanograms and liquids in cubic centimeters.


6479544 ng of bacon should cost 2 bucks i think, how much was 388 cc of fresh milk again?

yeah ok

[Deleted]

Is anyone else concerned about this?

It is inevitable. They have too many different difficulty modes, with automatic gear upgrade in every patch, so the ilvl will inevitably suffer hyperinflation. They can try to plaster over the symptoms with squishes and scaling, but it will always be hacky and broken.

[Pua]

Concerned? No. I do wish they would just fix the perceived problem vice apply band-aid squishes.

Ultimately, that's where I sit. They really need to fix the problem, rather than constantly kicking the can down the road.

The sad part is that they made such a mess of the last item squish, I dread to think what they'll do this time. It needs to be done properly, and not via some shitty background formula that turns Execute from a nuke to nothing just for rocking up on a different land mass.

They also need to stand up to the "OMGIWANNASOLO" crowd.

[Tunaria]

How about not increasing stats so extremely?

Pretty much this.
Blizzard wouldn't have run into this problem if they scaled things sensibly from the get-go.

Diablo 3 also suffers from this, with damage going into the millions on a sufficiently-geared character.

Numbers become so big that it's hard to use them as measurement of how well you're actually doing. It's kind of silly.

[Deleted]

Blizzard wouldn't have run into this problem if they scaled things sensibly from the get-go.

Which they cannot do when they insist on four difficulty levels, each with its own ilvl range. Either they have to cut back on the number of difficulties, or they need to have trivially small ilvl differences between the difficulties (which makes balancing very difficult).

[ItachiZaku]

Nearly all of the recent LFRs I've done, we've downed the boss within a bloodlust. Like, spider boss never even gets to the other platform (she will, but be bugged and spazm there for like 45 seconds with 1 hit point before actually "dying"). It makes nighthold quite unbearable, since those bosses all have like 80 trillion health.

[Deleted]

game version -> minimum raid ilvl (normal) -> max raid ilvl (incl procs etc) (heroic/mythic)

vanilla -> 65 -> 92 (+41%)
tbc -> 115 -> 164 (+43%)
wotlk -> 200 -> 284 (+42%)
cata -> 359 -> 416 (+16%)
mop -> 489 -> 575 (+18%)
wod -> 655 -> 735 (+12%)
legion -> 850 -> predictable tf cap with argus: 985 (+16%)

The increasement in power through gear is nothing special in legion. Traits and class changes are playing a much bigger part in the increasing dps/hps performances.

[coprax]

Basically their guild got bored and 5-manned Normal Emerald Nightmare. While cool and kinda funny, I think this shows how fast stats are growing in Legion, and how much of a problem it is mechanically.

I remember when PUG starters for HC Nightmare demanded like 200k dps from people to join.
Now some people do 800k single target in mythic gear.

It's already four times the damage and we still have 2 complete tiers to go this expansion.


I don't like it, but it has nothing to do with the size of the numbers I'm afraid
Stat squish is just another example, where the devs screwed up.

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game version -> minimum raid ilvl (normal) -> max raid ilvl (incl procs etc) (heroic/mythic)

vanilla -> 65 -> 92 (+41%)
tbc -> 115 -> 164 (+43%)
wotlk -> 200 -> 284 (+42%)
cata -> 359 -> 416 (+16%)
mop -> 489 -> 575 (+18%)
wod -> 655 -> 735 (+12%)
legion -> 850 -> predictable tf cap with argus: 985 (+16%)

The increasement in power through gear is nothing special in legion. Traits and class changes are playing a much bigger part in the increasing dps/hps performances.

But the itemlevel stats are exponential, the item level itself is linear. Can't compare it like that.