Did they just massively nerf Marked Shot and Vulnerable in 7.2.5?

[Galaar]

Marked Shot Rapidly fires shots at all targets with your Hunter's Mark, dealing (550% of weapon damage) Physical damage and making them Vulnerable for 7 sec. Vulnerable Damage taken from Aimed Shot increased by 100% -> 30% for 7 sec. 100 yd range. Instant.

Patient Sniper Gain the patience of a veteran sniper, increasing the damage bonus of Vulnerable by 10% -> 6% every 1 sec. Marksmanship Hunter - Level 60 Talent.

Looks like Piercing and Sidewinders got buffed but omg 100% to 30% on vulnerable?

[Zurabeth]

Did you read all the changes? Baseline aimed shot and piercing got massive buffs. It comes out to neither a buff or nerf really.

[Galaar]

That's why I'm asking. Not sure if the increase to AiS would compensate for the reduction in vulnerable. Don't get me wrong I detest vulnerable and wish they'd remove it so if this makes MM more fluid and less RNG (OMG I had to move now my AiS hits like a wet noodle) I'll be happy.

I just got my MM weapon to trait 52 (concord) so gonna start working on the gun. Hoping I won't have to change specs in Tomb.

[c313]

It helps more so in the long run. During the times where we don't have Vulnerable up we're now going to hit like a Dry noodle instead of a Wet noodle.

All in all, this is a great change.

[Turtel]

Just ignore whether this is an increase or decrease in damage. There will be an overall tuning pass for all DPS specs once ToS gets released (probably multiple, including one right after 7.2.5, if the near constant tweaking seen so far in this expansion is any indication), so it's pointless to talk about whether this or that change will compensate for the damage lost/gained from another change.

The important impact of these changes is that you'll suffer less of a DPS loss if you have to dump focus without Vulnerable being on the target. This has a few effects:
- The variance of the spec's damage will reduce somewhat (people who are unlucky with procs will do more damage relative to people who are lucky, as compared to live).
- Less skilled players, who were worse at managing their vulnerable windows, will do better damage relative to skilled players.
- Target switching will be less punishing if you are unable to immediately get vulnerable up (in fact, the first Aimed Shot on a mob will now do more damage than a baseline Aimed Shot during Vulnerable, unlike currently, where it does equal).
- Movement will also become less punishing when it previously caused Vulnerable to drop before you could dump your focus.

The Patient Sniper talent has gotten very slightly weaker. The Unerring Arrows trait has gotten slightly stronger.

[Dracodraco]

Direct comparison between PTR and live, there's virtually no change in damage with the aimed buff and the vulnerable nerf.

The Patient Sniper talent has gotten very slightly weaker. The Unerring Arrows trait has gotten slightly stronger.

How do you figure?
Patient Sniper, as far as I can tell, got a HUGE fucking buff from this; They nerfed base vuln from 100% to 30% and it saw no change in damage, so realistically, Patient sniper would have had to go from 10% per second to 3% to match. It only went to 6%. The talent is essentially double as strong as it used to be.

[TOM_RUS]

Good changes, wish they removed Vulnerable completely...

[Mnesymne]

Did some napkin math, i think it ends up being a 20% ish nerf to AiS dmg at max patient sniper with 4/4 UA

[Turtel]

Patient Sniper, as far as I can tell, got a HUGE fucking buff from this; They nerfed base vuln from 100% to 30% and it saw no change in damage, so realistically, Patient sniper would have had to go from 10% per second to 3% to match. It only went to 6%. The talent is essentially double as strong as it used to be.

The proportion of the damage that Vulnerable contributes to an Aimed Shot has shrunk drastically (Vulnerable previously contributed ~50% of a vulnerable Aimed Shot's damage, whereas now it only contributes ~23% of a Vulnerable Aimed Shot's damage), so Patient Sniper would need to provide a much bigger multiplier on the Vulnerable bonus to make up for Vulnerable's much smaller contribution (which it does, but not quite enough to make it better than compared to live).

Assuming we have 3 points in Unerring Arrows (a 12% additive bonus to Vulnerable on live and 9% in 7.2.5):
- On live: A vulnerable Aimed Shot deals 2.12 times a non-vulnerable Aimed Shot. With PS, this increases by 0.1 per second, or 0.1/2.12 = 4.72% per second.
- In 7.2.5: A vulnerable Aimed Shot deals 1.39 times a non-vulnerable Aimed Shot. With PS, this increases by 0.06 per second, or 0.06/1.39 = 4.32% per second.
So in 7.2.5, you gain a smaller relative increase in Aimed Shot damage from Patient Sniper.

There is also the component of an MM hunter's DPS that comes from Aimed Shots cast without Vulnerable: whether through bad luck with Making Targets procs or because moving caused Vulnerable to drop off, these are inevitable. In 7.2.5, Aimed Shots cast without Vulnerable will do a bigger proportion of your damage, or in other words, Aimed Shots cast during Vulnerable (which Patient Sniper buffs) will do a smaller proportion of your damage. This means Patient Sniper will be providing a smaller buff to a smaller proportion of your damage.

This is all just theory though, the practical difference is probably negligible.

[osa]

Patient Sniper, as far as I can tell, got a HUGE fucking buff from this; They nerfed base vuln from 100% to 30% and it saw no change in damage, so realistically, Patient sniper would have had to go from 10% per second to 3% to match. It only went to 6%. The talent is essentially double as strong as it used to be.

Not really, if we compare old PS benefit against new one.

4/4 artifact talent included.
Old:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 200+4*4=216%
6s: 200+4*4+6*10=276%
gain: 276/216=1.278

New:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 130+4*3=142%
6s: 130+4*3+6*6=178%
gain: 178/142=1.254

[keyone01]

Long story short, they nerfed importance of vulnerable but dmg will be basically the same as it is now.

[Deleted]

Not really, if we compare old PS benefit against new one.

4/4 artifact talent included.
Old:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 200+4*4=216%
6s: 200+4*4+6*10=276%
gain: 276/216=1.278

New:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 130+4*3=142%
6s: 130+4*3+6*6=178%
gain: 178/142=1.254

Old:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 100+4*4=116%
6s: 100+4*4+6*10=176%
gain: 60/116=52%

New:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 30+4*3=42%
6s: 30+4*3+6*6=78%
gain: 36/42=86%

[osa]

Old:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 100+4*4=116%
6s: 100+4*4+6*10=176%
gain: 60/116=52%

New:
0s (i.e. no sniper): 30+4*3=42%
6s: 30+4*3+6*6=78%
gain: 36/42=86%

Is this a joke or lack of math education?
Dracodraco was talking about bonus you receive from PS talent.
Now think what you are trying to show.

[Deleted]

Is this a joke or lack of math education?
Dracodraco was talking about bonus you receive from PS talent.
Now think what you are trying to show.

I think you misunderstood what he is referring to, and possibly confused by. We can all help each other. My numbers show what I think he meant, which is a very easy mistake to make. On first glance it looks as though Vuln was changed from 100% to 30%, and that the new PS offers a larger gain than the old. This is a very easy mistake to make, as these are the numbers the game gives us. What actually happened was Vuln was changed from 200% to 130%, and if you use these numbers as you correctly have, it can be seen that the change is much smaller than it seems.

[infinitemeridian]

They're obviously gearing up to remove vulnerable, probably opening up talent choices so that you don't have to worry about it as much.

[DeicideUH]

I've been advocating for this since 7.0, so I'm happy. Spec is still pretty unsatisfying, however. They really need to have a look at the talents...

[Machine99]

Changes should make meme build a little better with the buff to AiS?

[osa]

I think you misunderstood what he is referring to, and possibly confused by. We can all help each other. My numbers show what I think he meant, which is a very easy mistake to make. On first glance it looks as though Vuln was changed from 100% to 30%, and that the new PS offers a larger gain than the old. This is a very easy mistake to make, as these are the numbers the game gives us. What actually happened was Vuln was changed from 200% to 130%, and if you use these numbers as you correctly have, it can be seen that the change is much smaller than it seems.

I see. I thought you were trying to show me the right math.

[D3thray]

Its very simple to show AiS damage relative to live with this change:

with PS and 4/4 UA

Live: AiS 275% weapon damage

275 * (200 + 6*10 + 4*4) / 100 = 786.5

PTR: AiS 425% weapon damage

425 * (130 + 6*6 + 4*3) / 100 = 756.5

756.5/786.5 ~= 0.962

or about a 4% nerf from live at max PS, which considering UA's nerf means this is about a wash

also with no PS, the same calculations show a 1.6% BUFF

[Emerald Archer]

Without patient sniper, aimed shot and piercing shot are slightly SLIGHTLY stronger,

with patient is SLIGHTLY weaker, next to nothing.

The dmg gain from UA, is actually a larger increase in 7.2.5 than it is now, despite the nerf.

All in all, pretty much no change.