Tirion Fordring: The best written character in the game

[Lady Dragonheart]

I disagree, he's bland from the beginning of Wrath and on. His quest-line in vanilla is quite good despite that, however, he's a "good" character only in the concept of being a goody-two-shoes and literally nothing else.

[Daevelian]

Tirion Boredring? Really?

Man, this thread coupled with your "worst writen" thread has be thinking OP has absolutely no taste whatsoever. =\

[Deleted]

Pretty sure your soul doesn't just explode into pieces if a Warlock kills you.

You fucking wish your soul would simply explode when a warlock gets a hold of it, that would be a blessing. Physical and mental torture is a walk in the park compared to shadow and fel magics used on souls.

The biggest difference is even if it takes decades, physical torture ends with your death. no such luck if a warlock gets your soul.

[pateuvasiliu]

You fucking wish your soul would simply explode when a warlock gets a hold of it, that would be a blessing. Physical and mental torture is a walk in the park compared to shadow and fel magics used on souls.

The biggest difference is even if it takes decades, physical torture ends with your death. no such luck if a warlock gets your soul.

Gonna have to request some sources on this.

[Tripzzz]

You fucking wish your soul would simply explode when a warlock gets a hold of it, that would be a blessing. Physical and mental torture is a walk in the park compared to shadow and fel magics used on souls.

The biggest difference is even if it takes decades, physical torture ends with your death. no such luck if a warlock gets your soul.

If it was only physical torture that would be one thing, but undeath is just as bad as warlock soul magic. If it wasn't then why is Slyvanus so afraid of dying(again)? Because undeath completely fucked up her soul/afterlife. The quest with crusader bridenbard shows the same thing.

[pateuvasiliu]

It depends on who decides what a war crime is or not. There's no higher power deciding that, men do that. And no, civilian casualties were never considered a war crime when this occurred while aiming at a military target. On the other hand the deliberate targetting of civilians or the usage of weapons indiscriminately killing people without any degree of control are indeed accepted as war crimes by quite a long time.



Yeah, no. Someone who believes that don't know much of both.

She wanted to fucking kill and raise her sister ( and possibly her kids, can't recall ).

She's completely nuts. She'll kill every human she can get her hands on in order to make her army bigger and as such postpone her eternal damnation.

Hell she killed Nathanos' last living relative just so Nathanos had a hot body she could look at. ( " IT WAS TO MAKE HIM STRONGEEEER! " bullshit )

There's no good left in her. Someone who's devoid of good is evil. Stop being Sylvanas apologists just because you had a boner for her when you were 12.

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

not really he let the forsaken for all kinds of shit while the crusade was sitting next door.

He also let the Alliance invade Forsaken territory during a war they started and deliberately look for a fight with Sylvanas. Dat evil bastard, this Tirion.

who cares if there neutral there whole thing was stopping the scourge from being undead assholes ye they let the forsaken get away with it just because there part of the horde? it makes no sense that the crusade would let the forsaken do the same thing the scourge did unless the whole point of the crusade was for petty revenge.

Did you miss the part of WotLK where Argent Crusade teamed up with even bigger undead assholes who had the mentality of fighting the Scourge using the Scourge tactics and outright informed Tirion of that?

Maybe Pre-Cata.

In Vanilla he swore on the body of his dead son never to let evil come to pass unhindered again.

What does he do in Cata? Sit idly as the Forsaken slaughter and raise farmers.

You mean the farmers that attacked the Forsaken, breaking a truce?

what about beating farmers to death with shovels? or i don't know maybe raising people into undeath? i mean no one ever done that before have they? its totally a cool and ok thing to do.

I dunno, ask Argent Crusade's buddies, the Ebon Blade. Or Odyn, the Prime Designate of Azeroth. You know, the people that resurrect people in a way that robs them of free will. I.e. much closer to the Scourge than the Forsaken. Should Argent Crusade march on Skyhold now?

bias? ha your a hoot. i like the forsaken but no there evil assholes who are just like the scourge.
<video snip>

Yeah, Sylvanas deliberately pissing Garrosh off proves that Forsaken are Scourge /s

you ignored the second part of the farmer thing. and even if she is being sarcastic that just means she knows there no difference between her and the scourge and there isn't.

That's not how sarcasm works...

The forsaken use torture and experiments on prisoners in undercity. They use living humans armed with mere wooden sticks as target practice for armed undead. They also use the same Scourge tactic of raising your fallen enemies to fight for you.

Tirion is an idiot for letting all that be OK with him. Glad the fucker is dead.

So does the Ebon Blade. Darion told Tirion that in his face. Tirion allied with them. Could it be that the problem with the Scourge and Lich King went beyond necromancy? :O

[pateuvasiliu]

You mean the farmers that attacked the Forsaken, breaking a truce?

Yeah dude I'm sure that the entirety of Hillsbrad sent forces to attack Sylvanas, all the way from Hillsbrad Fields to Dun Garok.

[Mehrunes]

no not every race tortures not even close maybe the humans orcs and forsaken maybe trolls or night elfs but that's about it. and the soul of the scourge weren't even bound as the forsaken and the dk's broke away influenced maybe but they still had free will to some extent.

Blood Elves tortured Zul'jin and other Amani Trolls. Goblins torture Blackfuse's Goblin in WoD. Pretty sure Gnomes torture some leper Gnomes. Wouldn't put torture beyond Black Iron Dwarves. And seriously? You use special circumstances when Lich King lost control over his slaves through external attack as an argument on how they weren't slaves? Even some Scourge forces in Wrath were thankful for being killed, because it meant the end of slavery. Why do you think Forsaken went to war against the Scourge when they were freed? Do you even know the basics of the story you're trying to argue about?

Yeah dude I'm sure that the entirety of Hillsbrad sent forces to attack Sylvanas, all the way from Hillsbrad Fields to Dun Garok.

Dun Garok was a military outpost. Hillsbrad town formed a militia against the Forsaken all the way back to Vanilla. Southshore had military presence, was the source of funding for Alliance imperialism in Lordaeron continent and wasn't even a farming town.

what is the difference please tell me? they both raise people into undeath against there will they both want the living dead, hell the forsaken npc's say death to the living. they both torture experiment and do all kinds of things to people. please tell me the difference other then you have a boner for Sylvanas and not arthas.

The Forsaken offer a choice. The Scourge did not. Whoa, a difference :O

the forsaken raise people then tell them to join or die that might as well be slavery the scourge petty much did the same thing the more powerful members like dk's still had free will as you can see because they broke away while the lichking was still big and bad not like the forsaken who did it when he was weakened.

Goddamn skeletons lost away. Do you think the skeleton merchants in Acherus were among the "more powerful members of the Scourge"? And Lich King was weakened when he was struck with Ashbringer on holy ground. That's why he retreated. That's why he talked about the holy ground while doing so. The most higher Scourge had was autonomy. Like Anub'arak. He hated his existence. He was happy to die. And how the hell is raising people slavery in and on itself? Don't use words you don't understand.

The very fact that you can be an evil asshole does alone makes you different from the Scourge. The Scourge can't be anything, it's an army of mindless puppets.

Zulkan pls. Given how Forsaken broke free when Lich King was fucked up by Kerrilldank, it's obvious Scourge had free will.

you do know the scourge had a ton of members who weren't just mindless undead? the forsaken is just like the scourge just with a hot lead.

And even they were forced to do the Lich King's bidding. Sylvanas wasn't a mindless undead. She didn't want to partake in destroying Quel'thalas. She still was forced to. Even members of the Cult of the Damned are subject to Lich King's will via a concoction they have to drink for god's sake and they are alive.

From the perspective of Light worshippers, I can't see how raising people into undeath could be anything but.

Then why did Argent Crusade ally with the Ebon Blade, out of all people? The Ebon Blade that chastised Forsaken for not being extreme enough when it came to the living Scarlet Crusade/Onsluaght (and then resurrected their fallen as mindless ghouls for shits and giggles).

I swear the logic of Alliance fanboys in this thread can be broken down to "Hur dur they're zombies , they're evil, must kill em all !!11!1!". Like damn. Forsaken are no better or worse than most races. Hell it can be argued that they're more peaceful than both humans and orcs. I mean don't get me started on humans. Everyone is loosing their shit about the Forsaken cooking up some plague, yet the fact that humans run literal concentration camps is all fine and dandy. Or remember that time when humans nearly wiped out belves despite them being allies at the time. Sure , innocent folk who need protecting. I mean the posters remind me of the aforementioned farmers, grabbing their pitchforks and going to slay the undead cause they look different. Of course the undead will be defensive and hostile towards humans, they're the real monsters. Humans try to exterminate pretty much everything they come in contact with.

Just imagine that a link to every thread that's bound to have these Alliance posters is a gate. And above that gate, there's a sign saying "abandon all hope ye who enter here". It gets easier that way.

Even those with a functioning mind were enthralled to the Lich King in some way, see Death Knights. Kel'Thuzad and his cult were the notable exception. Being stripped of free will and the most basic capability to choose and judge is what defines the vast majority of the Lich King's servants.

As per Wrath, pledges to the Cult have to drink a concoction that enslaves them to the Lich King all the same. Now, it could be speculated it's not a retcon in regards to W3 era Cult of the Damned and it's something that came later, but Kel'thuzad's short story makes me question that possibility.

Indeed, those farmers where definitely asking for it. They travelled all the way from Westfall/Elwynn, to a complete warzone, that was also still infected with plague on a certain level.
I presume they could make some kind of pact with the Argent Crusade or even better ask for permission to join them? That way they would be under their protection if a farmer's life in these lands was what they really wanted.
For example, the laborers over at Felstone Field would be safe from the Forsaken and probably still alive. But they made bad decisions and paid the price.

Graden, seriously... All these farmers did was travel to a land they had no claim on, while it was already claimed by the Forsaken, that was of value to the Alliance only as a staging ground against the Forsaken, then formed a militia and attacked the Forsaken without the orders from their leading commander and broke the truce while doing so. You can't really blame them for what they did or excuse the Forsaken killing them.

no i don't mean the cult of the damned at all the valkr the undead blood elfs those buff blue guys i forget the name of the scourge has alot more then mindless undead

You mean the Val'kyr that made the pact to Sylvanas to stop being chained to the Lich King's will? Those Val'kyr? And the San'layn that went to Northrend with the specific goal to kill the Lich King? And you think they remained willing subjects?

ya they are just like the scourge. also

Well, at least you're being honest about what you're trying to do by simply repeating that they are just like the Scourge even when opposed with reasons as to why they are not.

who is being an alliance fan boy? the forsaken are my 3rd favorite race behind dwarfs and trolls but there flat out evil and the crusade should have killed them for what they were doing in cata. id say the orcs are as bad as the forsaken, humans to but not the storm wind humans they weren't the ones with concentration camps but humans as a whole ya other then those every race baring elfs and trolls are way better then the forsaken.

The camps were a joint Alliance venture. Stormwind never left the Alliance. They don't get a free pass on the camps.

He is one of the most irresponsible paladins in human history considering the power he wielded.

He and his followers did nothing whatsoever to contain the undead and to put a halt to the spreading of undeath after Frostmourne was shattered. He was happy with keeping a lush and flowery Heartglen, while leaving the rest of former Lordaeron(and beyond) be ravaged by undeath.

Except for the part where the Crusade fights the Cult of the Damned and the Scourge remnant they controlled, as well as Balnazzar's Risen.

[Orby]

Tiron is one of my favourite characters. Just a shame the man who took down the Lich King wasnt given a better send off equal to that of Varian.

But the vanilla quest "In Dreams" quest chain was amazing.

[Mehrunes]

That is a major problem of this section and certain users that keep visiting it; if you state something that indicates how one faction is evil and doing wrong, while also backing it up with ample examples, they'll automatically brand you as a fanboy of the other faction. These people won't accept the fact that most of the things the Horde's undead do are almost completely malicious and evil no matter what case or evidence you present them with. Their admission into the Horde in the first place is one of the most abbominal things Blizzard has done to the faction as a whole.

I remember I discussed this when I first joined this board and stopped doing so because it is pointless. At one point I had people come up and reply that there was nothing wrong with the Horde's undead destroying forests, spreading the plague, torturing prisoners, raising new undead and creating abbominations because if you think that this is evil, it would only be "only your opinion"(in other words, I guess they think that characters that do this are good and deserve to be treated as a normal race storywise). You could go as far as saying that grass is green and it'd be called "only your opinion".

What if the reason why it's pointless because you and people like you conjure alternative reality out of thin air when you don't like what you're hearing? You know, like the idea that disagreeing that the Forsaken are just like the Scourge somehow means one thinks the Forsaken are paragons of justice. Or when they disagree with your subjective opinions like the Horde thing. In your case, also compunded with your hysterical fantasy of universal values. Alas, feelings of victimhood are a more convenient alternative than facing reality.

Yep, swearing allegiance with the Argent Crusade rather than the Alliance would have been a far smarter move, if a mere bunch of fertile lands to cultivate is what they wanted. After all both paladins and druids work tirelessly on restoring the place, it was only a matter of time before all the farmers could get their own place.

But no, instead they ran with their forks against a Forsaken outpost. I don't know what's the people of Westfall smoke but sure as hell I want some of that shit.

Hell, they could even go to much larger EPL in that case instead of camping next to a war zone. Or Forsaken in general. Argent Crusade kinda needs farms too. And it's much logical logistically speaking, than using these farms to feed Stormwind.

[Techno-Druid]

He is one of the most irresponsible paladins in human history considering the power he wielded.

He and his followers did nothing whatsoever to contain the undead and to put a halt to the spreading of undeath after Frostmourne was shattered. He was happy with keeping a lush and flowery Heartglen, while leaving the rest of former Lordaeron(and beyond) be ravaged by undeath.

The Argent Crusade had been working with the Cenarion Circle since Cata to restore the Plaguelands.

[Mehrunes]

Stormwind survivors were part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and remained a part even after the reconstruction of Stormwind. So I'm pretty sure they agreed with those terms, after all the camps' authorities were based at first in Stormwind under Danath Trollbane.
Genn and Gilneas were even worse, as he didn't want to have Gilnean taxes pay for orc internment camps and demanded their execution.

Fake news, fake news!

Yeah, your legendary universal moral system. A tale my kids will be happy to hear.

And here we have a specimen of certain users who won't accept the fact that Forsaken do evil things! How dare you question universal values, good sir? Forsaken destoying trees is an utmost travesty! Don't make light of the trees' suffering.

And technically seen he was right about them because those same orcs that ended up finding freedom returned with the undead and razed his kingdom.

I'm completely convinced that Alliance held numerous Mag'har in their camps

We went from the legend of your universal moral system to undead ranger costumes. I don't know what's went wrong in the middle but whatever.

Think of the tale of universal values as Scientology. Undead rangers are the unviersal valuesists' boogeyman like Xenu is to Scientologists. Once you abandon reason and replace it with cult-like view of reality, the connection between the two is obvious.

This whole statement is wrong. Forsaken can be both better or worse (like all the people that make choices by their own) but are not the same. They're not the Scourge and do not share the same goals.

That's fascinating and all, but acknowledging details is not among the universal values. It's only the big picture and broad strokes that matter.

"you fap to sylvanas ha ha!"

Truly no one can argue with Magnagarde, his logic impeccable, his lack of bias unquestionable.

seriously, how can anyone ever think they can be taken seriously when they have to fall back on this when their argument inevitably crumbles?

Don't try to hide that arguing with you (and not Magnagarde, obviously) is pointless And Mangagarde's argument can never crmble. It's upheld by universal values.

Their intention isn't to destroy all life, but almost every single one of their action leads to the destruction of life. Therefor yes, their actions are the same.

Yeah, let's ignore the times when they let their enemies live or more or less ignored them. Whereas in the case of the Scourge, other than Lich King's stupid plot for the players (where the end goal was still killing us, but only after we "fattened up" power-wise) letting the enemy leave alive happened when they fucked up.

Of course they were, that's their home. The people that lived in Hillsbrad were also citizens of Lordaeron.

So, Hillsbrad being their home guarantees their innocence for all time how?

Nothing I said was incorrect.

You're just deluded by your fanboyism to the point where to you using Warlocks somehow makes you as bad as the people that literally use live subjects to create diseases on top of using Warlocks.

Yeah, right. Nothing you said was incorrect indeed.

That's not how war crimes work.

Those were farmers.

Who formed a militia. Over half a decade ago.

You basically said Forsaken are a mindful Scourge. In other words, you pulled a "they're the same yet worse" kind of statement. Which is, again, wrong. Comparing the Forsaken to the Scourge in that way is no different than compare the current Horde to Gul'dan's Horde.

Pretty sure Magnagarde recently wrote that the modern-day Horde suffers from a case of betraying itself because Legion, so trying this angle with them is pointless.

The "raised farmers" (as you called them) were those in the Western Plaguelands, indeed in rather proximity to Tirion's own domain.

Again, details don't matter in this post-fact universal value world.

[Flurryfang]

Surprise, surprise, I chose someone else. The guy is awesome. His storyline is soo much better than Uther's or any Paladin in game. He is the embodiment of how a neutral character should be. He was not an Alliance character, for those who think so. Tirion kicked ass and I honestly don't understand why Blizz chose Tirion to die instead of Thrall at the Broken Shore. Tirion has the power to utterly tear Gul'dan to shreds with the Ashbringer. Just think, he killed Arthas, the Lich King and shattered Frostmourne, how could he lose to a no-name-Eredar monstrosity? Thrall was heavily weakened. He couldn't even use the elements he deserved to die on the Broken Shore.

His storyline in Vanilla, with him trying to save his son was pretty amazing, but he was not really that great a character in the rest of the expansions. He had some good moments in Wrath, especially with his apperance in the DK questline, but he was really a very inactive leader. We never saw him in combat during Wrath and him destroying Frostmourne pretty much came out of nowhere.

If he had only existed in Wrath, i would maybe consider him, but since he was completly Cata, MoP, WoD and most of Legion, i would say, that he is one of the characters, that got the "Forgotten" treatment from Blizzard. His death had no impact and was pretty much overshadowed by Varian and Vol'jins death. That, my friend, is very bad storytelling.

So no, he is not the best written character in the game.... Wrathion proberly is.

[Mehrunes]

No need to make your own interpretation of what I wrote because it is enough to read what I wrote to understand what it means. I wrote that their actions are the same and they are.

Utilizing plague, destroying nature, rummaging through graveyards and raising more undead, ravaging another kingdom, creating abbominations, experimenting with prisoners, draining the living through the Val'kyr and more.

Except for the part where some of that more does not overlap with the Scourge.

You heard it here first folks!

Nah, Geneva Convetions said it earlier.

No, they attacked. The Forsaken have no claim over Hillsbrad. They have a claim over the lands that were taken from them by the Scourge.

Except for the part where Forsaken created successor state to Lordaeron, giving them a claim to, you know, Lordaeron. That Hillsbrad is a part of. Besides, it was only taken over during a war Alliance started.

[TheFirstOnes]

No.

He became a hermit, lost his son back in Vanilla, took the Ashbringer, killed the Lich king, only to get fucked by Both Gul'dan/Krosus, while Dying to some random Jailer soon after...

Oh, and Balnazzar was there too....

But, he isn't important in this expansion.

[pateuvasiliu]

Dun Garok was a military outpost. Hillsbrad town formed a militia against the Forsaken all the way back to Vanilla. Southshore had military presence, was the source of funding for Alliance imperialism in Lordaeron continent and wasn't even a farming town.

Southshore, a military presence? It was a village of fucking fishermen.

Except for the part where Forsaken created successor state to Lordaeron, giving them a claim to, you know, Lordaeron

That's not how it works.

If the UK falls and Scotland lays claim to England that doesn't make them right. The Hillsbradi people lived there, that was their home. The Forsaken had no claim to that land. Sylvanas isn't the queen of Lordaeron and even if she were, Lordaeron stopped existing.

Who formed a militia. Over half a decade ago.

How dare a village have a defensive unit to protect themselves against threats like gnolls, undead and worgen?

Grrr

[Mehrunes]

does warcraft even have war crimes... i mean i know they had the whole garrosh trial. but its not like the horde and alliance ever agreed to a set war rules.

They don't. There wasn't even some immense agreement when it came to Garrosh's trial (some of the stuff Tyrande pulled as prosecutor were outright nonsensical to begin with). Which is why using such arguments in context of Warcraft doesn't make the most of sense.

He told you that your comparison with Gul'dan doesn't make sense because Thrall didn't willingly utilize the demonic Horde's methods like the Forsaken willingly utilize Scourge methods.

The Orcs betrayed themselves though. So they're obviously worse.

Every race in Warcrat has a dark and a bright side, including the Forsaken. Sure they are more extreme in almost everything they are doing compared to other factions, but they are undead beings after all, with dulled emotions.
I think it's good to have such a choice because there is a large number of people that enjoy playing the less good side in games, in our case the Forsaken. They are definitely not Scourge 2.0 though.

True. Because they were Scourge 1.0 with a different coat of paint all along!

That is something everyone agrees with here. Liking a faction or race out of the wrong reasons is perfectly fine. The problem is when people try to whitewash wrongdoings of their favourite faction or race simply because they like it.

Nobody ever argued about people saying they like to play Forsaken because they're dark and extreme about everything they do, but about those that do play them trying to say they aren't dark or extreme.

Look at all that whitewashing! "Forsaken aren't Scourge". "'But muh trees' isn't a compelling example of wrongdoing". It's so white it's blinding.

[Magnagarde]

The Argent Crusade had been working with the Cenarion Circle since Cata to restore the Plaguelands.

Andorhal is in the Plaguelands and they've done absolutely nothing against undeath there.

[Mehrunes]

"They're pretty much the same but worse". Again, this is what you said. Don't make me quote you once again, you know you did.

Oh but you think I interpreted it "wrong" because you talk of "actions" when actions are what defines someone? Because if their actions would be exactly the same (but mindful) of the Scourge than they would inevitably share the same goals which, again, they don't. But to help you call things with their name, saying Forsaken utilize a degree of Scourge tactics/methods would be more fitting. And "degree" is the key word (the Blight is not the Plague of Undeath and the raising of the dead has utterly different consequences and circumstances compared to the way the Scourge utterly weaponizes the dead).

Significant details. Universal values. You chose wrong.

You don't know what a war crime is, don't you? Because if killing civilians is by itself a war crime, I guarantee every single nation during WW2 committed tons of them.

WW2? Hell, US commits them every other week with the drone strikes. Must have strayed from the universal values.

That's dumb. Gul'dan's Horde wanted to rule the whole world and annihilate the humans.

Thrall's Horde wants to survive and live in peace.

Sylvanas wants to kill the living, so... she's as bad as Arthas was, thanks.

The most she wanted to kill was the humans. And that was a decade ago.