mm in 7.2.5 going to be good or not

[ozusteapot]

I know, luckily i have the MM gloves so I won't mind going Trickshot as much, with t20 4set and cos/arc 2 piece.

[Deleted]

If movement was such a tremendous handicap for MM then the gloves would be much more sought after. Yet i rarely see anyone using them.

[PBitt]

If movement was such a tremendous handicap for MM then the gloves would be much more sought after. Yet i rarely see anyone using them.

Because if you have all the MM legends the boots are pretty much mandatory in every situation ATM and the belt is the same for any multi-target situation. Between M+ and the majority of NH being multi-target fights the gloves don't really have much use ATM outside of ST encounters. I do switch out of belt/boots build to glove/boots build on many M+ bosses though.

[Zurabeth]

If movement was such a tremendous handicap for MM then the gloves would be much more sought after. Yet i rarely see anyone using them.

The movement bonus is just the cherry on the top for the legendary. Often times the aimed shot that you can move with is not the time when you need to move. It is not exactly like you can line up when you need to use the movement and the buff.

[ozusteapot]

If movement was such a tremendous handicap for MM then the gloves would be much more sought after. Yet i rarely see anyone using them.

It's not just because of the movement, it's also that the gloves synnergise very well with the tier-set, much the same way the belt synnergises well with bm's tier-set.

[Arhippa]

If movement was such a tremendous handicap for MM then the gloves would be much more sought after. Yet i rarely see anyone using them.

Can't speak for everyone but personally I simply got so fed up with the buff being so bugged that I got rid of them as soon as I got the belt - and honestly I don't really miss it at all, I can do just fine without them for the content I'm doing. At least before 7.2 the buff was bugged just in outdoor content, once 7.2 hit live it was just as bad in dungeons and raids too.

[Emerald Archer]

If movement was such a tremendous handicap for MM then the gloves would be much more sought after. Yet i rarely see anyone using them.

#1. Gloves are bugged and don't always work.
#2. Gloves are considered 2nd BiS, tied with belt. Gloves for ST and Belt for AoE. But it isn't about the movement, it's about the crit chance on them, which is really really strong. Movement is good too, but that extra crit is amazing.

- - - Updated - - -

Can't speak for everyone but personally I simply got so fed up with the buff being so bugged that I got rid of them as soon as I got the belt - and honestly I don't really miss it at all, I can do just fine without them for the content I'm doing. At least before 7.2 the buff was bugged just in outdoor content, once 7.2 hit live it was just as bad in dungeons and raids too.

In raids/dungeons the gloves really aren't that bad, if they're bugging take them off and put them back on, they'll work for atleast a while if not the rest of the night.

- - - Updated - - -

People talk about bm being so good because of its "mobility" that doesn't matter, what matters is how much dmg each spec does. BM is great ST, MM is great AoE.

MM is looking like its ST will be nice in 7.2.5 too, so with strong ST and strong aoe, as long as you aren't completely trash, movement won't be a big deal, considering there isn't any crazy high movement fights in ToS.

Movement has nothing to do with anything, stop drooling on about it. Yes it helps in some situations, but has nothing to do with how valid a spec is. What matters is dmg and utility.

[keygy]

lol no, mobility its very important for mm its not a easy spec to play in raid as bm is, and bm have a very nice aoe too, we are strong than bm in aoe because trueshot its a amazing burst skill to do aoe.

if you think that "mobility" doesnt matter...

looking nice? mm its looking the same as right now, they have not been any type of buffs to mm in the ptr, dunno why you think its "looking nice" meme gonna be rip for ToS because its a more St raid than NH for sure.

[Hyxi]

Can't speak for everyone but personally I simply got so fed up with the buff being so bugged that I got rid of them as soon as I got the belt - and honestly I don't really miss it at all, I can do just fine without them for the content I'm doing. At least before 7.2 the buff was bugged just in outdoor content, once 7.2 hit live it was just as bad in dungeons and raids too.

Allegedly this is fixed now.

[Riistov]

Some guilds have melee slots for survival, sometimes you can't hire ranged because they suck. Just think about it.

While that hypothetical may exist somewhere, it's doubtful. Survival has no niche, there is nothing it can do that other melee can't. So while there may be a Survival hunter picked up for a melee spot, no one is ever going to say "oh man, we need a Survival hunter" like you would say for most other melee classes that actually bring some beneficial utility.

[Veshx]

Movement has nothing to do with anything, stop drooling on about it. Yes it helps in some situations, but has nothing to do with how valid a spec is. What matters is dmg and utility.

lmao, what?

[Emerald Archer]

lmao, what?

It's very simple, if a bm hunter can do 800k on a fight, and an mm hunter can do 850k on that fight, if it's a medium movement fight (eg. mythic krosus) MM wins out.

If they both do the same, both 800k, and mm has the gloves, there's next to no difference between the two, and again doesn't matter which you go.

Damage done is what matters at the end of the day, you guys go on about movement, but it's how much damage you can do despite the movement that matters.

If it's a high movement aoe fight, mm is still going to beat bm currently, because of how much more aoe dmg mm does. Even if it's very high movement.

[keygy]

It's very simple, if a bm hunter can do 800k on a fight, and an mm hunter can do 850k on that fight, if it's a medium movement fight (eg. mythic krosus) MM wins out.

If they both do the same, both 800k, and mm has the gloves, there's next to no difference between the two, and again doesn't matter which you go.

Damage done is what matters at the end of the day, you guys go on about movement, but it's how much damage you can do despite the movement that matters.

If it's a high movement aoe fight, mm is still going to beat bm currently, because of how much more aoe dmg mm does. Even if it's very high movement.

and is the same BM has the two leg bis at same level of skill, you not gonna win a bm in krosus M in the fuking life.

and well Krosus M dont know how are you playing in that fight but as mm if you dont tunnel the boss you gonna lost a lot for soaking in the far away back zone.

Obvious you gonna win in aoe movement fight as mm becase meme build its a very mobile spec to do aoe and damage in general.

[Emerald Archer]

and is the same BM has the two leg bis at same level of skill, you not gonna win a bm in krosus M in the fuking life.

and well Krosus M dont know how are you playing in that fight but as mm if you dont tunnel the boss you gonna lost a lot for soaking in the far away back zone.

Obvious you gonna win in aoe movement fight as mm becase meme build its a very mobile spec to do aoe and damage in general.

I'm not talking about the current situation these are examples.

Clearly atm BM is far superior to MM on anything ST or semi-ST, but that isn't because of movement, it's because BM does significantly more ST dps.

[zoned]

BM feels horrible on PTR with new tier and changes. Regardless of damage output or mobility, the loss of T19 4 piece and BW CDR nerfs completley kill the spec, it's simply unplayable. T20 is very lack luster providing only a 5% dps gain at best. On live with T19 BW up time is 60-70%, on PTR with new tier and changes BW up time drops to 25-30%. The new BM rotation consists of you spamming cobra shot 80% of the time while only hitting KC once every 6 seconds, it's beyond awful. The only playable BM build on PTR I found was running aspect of the beast with legendary boots. Even that was awful, it just put out the most damage, which was still way less than I do on live.

With this current PTR build MM is the superior spec it has better tier bonuses, single target damage(100k higher than BM from my testing) and far superior cleave. These are just my thoughts, I know 7.2.5 is still being tested and this is probably not the final build.

[andreasels]

BM feels horrible on PTR with new tier and changes. Regardless of damage output or mobility, the loss of T19 4 piece and BW CDR nerfs completley kill the spec, it's simply unplayable. T20 is very lack luster providing only a 5% dps gain at best. On live with T19 BW up time is 60-70%, on PTR with new tier and changes BW up time drops to 25-30%. The new BM rotation consists of you spamming cobra shot 80% of the time while only hitting KC once every 6 seconds, it's beyond awful. The only playable BM build on PTR I found was running aspect of the beast with legendary boots. Even that was awful, it just put out the most damage, which was still way less than I do on live.

With this current PTR build MM is the superior spec it has better tier bonuses, single target damage(100k higher than BM from my testing) and far superior cleave. These are just my thoughts, I know 7.2.5 is still being tested and this is probably not the final build.

You really need to explain to me, how BW uptime can drop so much with reducing the cooldown reduction from 23 to 15 seconds. It's just not possible.

Atm without shoulders I manage to consistently get around 50-60% BW uptime, depending on RNG and if I slightly delay it for important burst windows or not.

I imagine that with Shoulders effect made baseline and the loss of T19, I should still be able to reach around 45-50% consistently.

[Deleted]

I went and dowloaded the PTR to test it. The downtime mentioned above may be hyperbole, but it's still an increase (of course). We can minimize it with OwtP and still use the shoulders, but I felt that WotC was almost a necessity considering how much longer we are outside of BW and spamming Cobra Shot.

Anecdotal evidence. I got better numbers with T19 equipped, even nerfed to 4 seconds, than with T20. Average of 85 mill for two minutes with T20 to 93-100 mill with T19. I also barely noticed a difference between the legendaries. The numbers never skewed much from the 85 mill with the exception of the wrists + CoF which is how I consistently got the 93-100 mill numbers.

Take it with a grain of salt since these were not scientific tests.

[zoned]

You really need to explain to me, how BW uptime can drop so much with reducing the cooldown reduction from 23 to 15 seconds. It's just not possible.

Atm without shoulders I manage to consistently get around 50-60% BW uptime, depending on RNG and if I slightly delay it for important burst windows or not.

I imagine that with Shoulders effect made baseline and the loss of T19, I should still be able to reach around 45-50% consistently.

On PTR frenzy/beast BW cdr was reduced from 15 seconds to 12. T19 4 piece was nerfed by 50% (8 seconds to 4 seconds per df/db cast) this coupled with low item level of T19 going into ToS will make it not worth equipping. The new mantle effect seems very weak and might not be worth equipping over other legendary options. So going into ToS BM will only get BW cdr from df/db of 12 seconds per cast. Effectively reducing your Bestial Wrath up time from current live by 50%, taking it from 50-60% down to 25-30%. I don't anticipate this changing before ToS.

The new BM is quite horrible, the short CD of BW is what made the spec fun and raid viable, killer cobra up time is everything. The spec becomes a boring cobra shot spamming snooze fest without it. Unless Blizzard does something drastic like reduce BW down to a 1min CD, the spec becomes pure trash. MM is the clear choice going into ToS. Especially when you take into account on current PTR build MM is sustaining higher single target dps. I spent hours on PTR running every possible BM setup and my MM off spec with less traits/bad relics is sustaining 50-100k higher dps.

[Deleted]

I have to concur. My BW upkeep is really high and it feels very rewarding. Even with OwtP and using the shoulders for the +20% to Wild Call the upkeep falls down a fair bit on the PTR. I was simply not impressed with T20. I didn't even notice it. I'll have to test it using only off-pieces to see the difference without both the the T20 bonuses.

[andreasels]

On PTR frenzy/beast BW cdr was reduced from 15 seconds to 12

I somehow missed this change. That kinda sucks.

Seems like they really want us to force into meaningful but more seldom BW windows (T20 hints to this aswell)