Difference between Sylvanas and a DK

[roahn the warlock]

What exactly is the difference here? In our guild, we were talking about how much free will Deathknights actually have. And whether or not they could be re-engineered to not feel pain when not killing. Be able to eat/sleep. The game suggests these things were programmed by the scourge. Therefore, they are not limitations in the magic itself. Since biologically, if a Deathknight can feel pain and anger, there's no reason they can't feel other emotions and feelings.

This brought to question Sylvanas and Forsaken. Who seem to have more free-will than DKs. As Sylvie can feel sadness, and even some love (As seen in War crimes) . And then, the difference between Banshees in a body and Dks. Are Deathknights basically Banshees that are immediately placed into their own body?

thoughts?

[faithbane]

Are Deathknights basically Banshees that are immediately placed into their own body?

thoughts?

Original DKs that guldan made were like that. The current DKs we don't actually know the specifics behind them, they are just strong warriors of horde/alliance that died and LK raised them to be "death knights" what powers he gives them and how are not really directly explained. But it was hinted in the starting zone and the original talents like "veteran of the third war" and taming your own horse in shadowlands, killing your old loved ones to rid yourself of emotion etc.. to show that they are not just random people that were raised and they were fighters before death and that there is a process/ritual to go through before you become a real death knight.


It is shown many times that there are undead that feel emotions in quest chains/books. Even sylvanas has shown some emotion on a couple quest chains, even as a banshee very early in silvermoon, seeing her entire race being butchered by the scourge saddened her so much that she screamed in pain loud enough that it incapacitated the entire city temporarily.

[Arrashi]

With forsaken i would say they are 100% free willed, with no real "affinity" for evil. There are quite alot of examples of forsaken beig just normal guys and while there are alot of psycho's (like calder gray) we can attribute that to both past trauma and the fact that their current society simply has diffrent norms (like killing humans not being seen as a crime). Long story short - forsaken make their own choices.

With DKs it seems to be quite diffrent, especially given their new ally. While some of them are clearly 100% free willed (thassarian, koltira, darion) others (especially newly risen horsemen) appear to be a bit...narrow minded. Good example being nazgrim. Then we have to add the entire "need to inflict pain" and whether or not its unconditional or something you can surpress with your will power. And on top of that we don't know what kind of influence Lich king has on DKs (seeing how great they deal with paladins and red dragons they definately make bad decisions much quicker than they used to).

[Deleted]

appear to be a bit...narrow minded. Good example being nazgrim.

Nazgrim, like most orcs, had a narrow mind while alive too.

[Verdugo]

Nazgrim, like most orcs, had a narrow mind while alive too.

Well his narrow view changed from "axed" to "choking".

[Peebuddy]

Didn't Sylvanas get her soul back after becoming a banshee? As far as I know the Lich King still has all the DKs' souls

[Captain Douchebag]

While some of them are clearly 100% free willed (thassarian, koltira, darion)

Maybe not so much after being risen again.

And on top of that we don't know what kind of influence Lich king has on DKs (seeing how great they deal with paladins and red dragons they definately make bad decisions much quicker than they used to).

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Bolvar has full control of at least the four horsemen at this point.

[Arrashi]

Maybe not so much after being risen again.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Bolvar has full control of at least the four horsemen at this point.

The real question is - is deathlord the only one who hear voices. Because if all DKs are so suseptible to suggestion, then we gonna have another mini-wotlk.

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Nazgrim, like most orcs, had a narrow mind while alive too.

He does appear to be surprisingly content with his current situation.

[Gaidax]

Death Knights, plain Scourge and Forsaken are all very similar - basically soul being reattached to its original body in a shoddy way, which results in various side effects.

Sylvanas on the other hand is different, being basically a banshee inside body that does not belong to her bound by different means to the above.

[Captain Douchebag]

The real question is - is deathlord the only one who hear voices. Because if all DKs are so suseptible to suggestion, then we gonna have another mini-wotlk.

I'm fairly certain Bolvar can invade the head of whatever death knight he wants.

If we get another scourge expansion in which The Ebon Blade turns bad, it's probably going to be some silly shit like "the deathlord is the only one who's strong enough to ignore Bolvar, the rest are now super evil again, top kek".

[Arrashi]

I'm fairly certain Bolvar can invade the head of whatever death knight he wants.

If we get another scourge expansion in which The Ebon Blade turns bad, it's probably going to be some silly shit like "the deathlord is the only one who's strong enough to ignore Bolvar, the rest are now super evil again, top kek".

The interesting thing is that horseman resurrection spell seems to be coming with quite alot of "programming". Not only they seem to gain alot of knowledge right from the start, but the fact that they all are like "say no more fam" seems that it may alter personality as well.

[Captain Douchebag]

The interesting thing is that horseman resurrection spell seems to be coming with quite alot of "programming". Not only they seem to gain alot of knowledge right from the start, but the fact that they all are like "say no more fam" seems that it may alter personality as well.

Yeah, it seems like a pretty sketchy deal. It probably came with the added side effect of being a Lich King pawn whenever Bolvar feels like cashing in.

[Aucald]

Death Knights are essentially "perfected" undead - they've undergone processes to strengthen their musculature, enhancing their form, and are connected to a conduit of Runic magic enabling them to wield the powers of Frost, Blood, and Unholy effects. As undead they share the same affliction that the Forsaken do as that they do not feel emotions as living beings anymore. Positive emotions are blunted and distant, whereas negative emotions (rage, anger, sadness, etc.) can still be felt keenly. Death Knights are also afflicted by an "addicition" to the inflicting of pain to living beings, and refusing to do so will eventually drive them into a rage where they lash out any anyone or anything alive to sate it. Ideally their memories are completely wiped during their creation, but this process is imperfect and a varying amount of memories remain or can be recovered over time (the reason why sleep was forbidden to Death Knights under the Lich King's rule).

Sylvanas, on the other hand, began her career in the Scourge as an incorporeal Banshee - a corrupted spirit tormented by the pain and rage of its death, designed to project that weaponized torment outward in the form of their signature scream and cause anguish to the living. Banshees were also capable of possessing living hosts and using them to benefit the Scourge and it was this ability Sylvanas capitalized on to inhabit her own corpse, becoming a unique form of undead in her own right. Forsaken alchemists and Necromancers later strengthened her vessel by unknown means and she regained nearly all of the power and grace she had as a living being (tainted and darkened by undeath, of course). Her pact with the Val'kyr has enhanced her further, as well - the specifics of this are touched on but not elaborated on in "Dark Mirror" as Nathanos undergoes a similar procedure to restore a semblance of his own living to him.

[Combatbutler]

The real question is - is deathlord the only one who hear voices. Because if all DKs are so suseptible to suggestion, then we gonna have another mini-wotlk.

It is extremely likely that they are still somewhat bound to the lich king, for whatever reason the Lk even tells the deathlord if he dies he will take archerus, implying he has the means to bring them back into the fold

[Arrashi]

It is extremely likely that they are still somewhat bound to the lich king, for whatever reason the Lk even tells the deathlord if he dies he will take archerus, implying he has the means to bring them back into the fold

Something tells me deathlord will soon need to watch out for funny smelling food, banana peels and 100 member big assasin warbands.

[StationaryHawk]

With forsaken i would say they are 100% free willed, with no real "affinity" for evil. There are quite alot of examples of forsaken beig just normal guys and while there are alot of psycho's (like calder gray) we can attribute that to both past trauma and the fact that their current society simply has diffrent norms (like killing humans not being seen as a crime). Long story short - forsaken make their own choices.

The Nathanos short story implied that Forsaken have a dulled sense of sympathy, with him only feeling remorse for his actions following his transformation that enhanced his other senses. Granted, it could also just be that he finally lost something he actually gave a damn about.

[Arrashi]

The Nathanos short story implied that Forsaken have a dulled sense of sympathy, with him only feeling remorse for his actions following his transformation that enhanced his other senses. Granted, it could also just be that he finally lost something he actually gave a damn about.

Yeah, but then you have deathguard darnell. What a guy. So while becoming undead may give you +50 to assholery, there are still some pristine gems that must be protected.

[Mehrunes]

I'm not sure if "since biologically" is of any significance to an undead to be honest. Besides, being on more negative side of emotional spectrum is a thing generally undead as far as Warcraft is concerned.

And no, DKs are unlikely to be Banshees. First of all Banshees are of female Elf origin. Secondly, Sylvanas is the only known banshee to reposses her own body. Which gave her some unique powers, like the ability to turn her body incorporeal. Which the DKs don't have. She also has normal Banshee powers, like Banshee scream. Which the DKs also lack. On the other hand, Sylvanas doesn't seem to have the sadism dependency of DKs.

Finally, as per Nathanos' short story, it has been clarified how Scourge's DKs have been made (at least the later generation, resurrected by the Val'kyr), which is that they were infused with body mass of a living sacrifice.

As for free will, other than them getting into bed with the Lich King and potentially getting fucked over by him, there's no real difference between the Death Knights and the Forsaken. The requirement for inflicting pain is more or less an addiction, so shouldn't really infringe on free will much.

[Teri]

My DK is Forsaken, made the most sense to me back in Wotlk when I made it...

[D Luniz]

A death Knight can talk about Greymanne without making you need to take off your headphones