Ukraine blocks two Russian social networks, major mail service, and search engine

[Flarelaine]

If you're a country that controls an area the size of another country whose people overwhelmingly don't want to be part of your country you should allow it to secede, not oppress their wishes because "mah clays", it's the 21st century.

Actually, even most EU states would go against you over the right to secede - if only to keep others from rocking the boat. Instead, there are standards on minority rights - language use, cultural autonomy, even a certain degree of self-determination. Whatever it takes. The point is that it is an internal matter. Grabbing Ukrainian "clay" isn't exactly a 21st century method, either.

[caervek]

The equipment in question wasn't used in Ukrainian military. But was used in russian.

It was used by the Ukrainian SSR and is still used by the Ukrainian Ground Forces.

[Lolgo]

So when you ignored their wishes for 23 years, deposed their president, overthrew their government, tore up their constitution, revoked citizens rights, etc, that was empowering them? When you ignored them and hoped their desire to leave your control would fade with time that was engaging them?

Wat?

Lulwat? It was your government that revoked the Tatars equal rights laws and protective legislation when you took over in '95, that's why most of them voted to leave in 2014.

Again, wat?

Russia apologised and made amends (though not enough IMO) the Tatars returned to Crimea and were given constitutional and legal protection/rights (the ones your government tore up in the 90's).

I don't even...

That is some military-grade brainwashing you got there... Next you're gonna tell Ukrainians are actually Orcs in disguise that feast on the dead bodies of their enemies?
Read up on some real history before you completely publicly disgrace yourself with these nonsensical fairy tales.

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It was used by the Ukrainian SSR and is still used by the Ukrainian Ground Forces.

Let me guess. You used some russian resource to "prove" that. Right?

[caervek]

Actually, even most EU states would go against you over the right to secede

*cough* Greenland
*cough* Norway
*cough* Yugoslavia
*cough* Czechoslovakia

Europe is quite big on the right to self determination, over in the UK we recently (relative) gave Scotland and the Falklands the choice of what they wanted.

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Wat?

Again, wat?

I don't even...

Do you seriously not even know the history between your own country and Crimea? O.o

I would suggest brushing up on history if you're going to be participating in these threads.

[Sting]

Censoring the internet, what a great idea If you need any more tips on how to control people I'm sure Kim Jong Un will be happy to help

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*cough* Yugoslavia

I wouldn't exactly call that a shining example of self determination, more like a brutal civil war.

[caervek]

Let me guess. You used some russian resource to "prove" that. Right?

Nope, I already had a good idea of UGF hardware but double checked it on a US site to ensure I was right.

If you don't believe me here's a picture of one participating in the 2008 independence parade in Kiev:



Now, I don't think the Ruskies can do time travel, so this should be kinda conclusive that Ukraine had and still have them, at least IMO.

[Lolgo]

Do you seriously not even know the history between your own country and Crimea? O.o

I would suggest brushing up on history if you're going to be participating in these threads.

Actually, I do know the history of my country. The real history. You don't
I'd even go as far as to say you don't have the smallest clue about what you're saying. That's exactly the kind of bullshit russia spreads to have at least some moral ground in that situation. To bad none of that is the least bit true. There never was any deposing, tearing up the constitution, ridding anyone of their rights. It was a peaceful decision made legally, not forcefully.

Which is why it should have pictures/evidence to back up it's claims.

OSCE has proven itself to be a trustworthy organization and it's not in the nature of their daily reports to include pictures.

[Flarelaine]

*cough* Greenland
*cough* Norway
*cough* Yugoslavia
*cough* Czechoslovakia

Europe is quite big on the right to self determination, over in the UK we recently (relative) gave Scotland and the Falklands the choice of what they wanted.

Self-determination, yes. Secession, not so much. It was made very clear by core EU states that secession would be frowned upon in a show of solidarity with the nations who happen to hold those regions. Catalunya is a prime example, but other member states have their own regions with independence movements, like Bretagne, Scotland, Sicily or Székelyföld (the Hungarian-speaking region of Transylvania). The EU consensus appears to be no secession and a promise of a hard road to membership to those who still go through.

Your examples all predate the present political landscape in Europe, except Yugoslavia. (Hell, Norway has been independent since before the First World War!) And Yugoslavia proved incapable of keeping a lid on their internal problems without the use of force. I am not claiming this justifies anything. By the rules, Kosovo and Crimea should have both kept the internal autonomy they possessed under the Communist regimes and should in turn have agreed to remain where they are. That is what I consider the European way. As for other former Yugoslav republics... they always had the right to secede per the constitution, so Serbia was clearly in the wrong for waging war on them.

[Lolgo]

Nope, I already had a good idea of UGF hardware but double checked it on a US site to ensure I was right.

If you don't believe me here's a picture of one participating in the 2008 independence parade in Kiev:

Now, I don't think the Ruskies can do time travel, so this should be kinda conclusive that Ukraine had and still have them, at least IMO.

Apart from a few museum exhibits that are kept alive for parades, there's a lot more tech that isn't in UGF. To name a few:
Assault rifles: AK-74M, AS Val
Sniper rifles: VSS Vintorez
Anti-materiel rifles: KSVK, ASVK
Anti-tank: 9M133 Kornet
Flamethrowers: MRO-A
Tanks: T-72B3
Infantry Fighting Vehicles: BTR-82AM
Logistics and utility vehicles: GAZ Vodnik
Rocket artillery: Grad-K, TOS-1 Buratino

[caervek]

By the rules, Kosovo and Crimea should have both kept the internal autonomy they possessed under the Communist regimes and should in turn have agreed to remain where they are.

So, screw what the people want then?

As for other former Yugoslav republics... they always had the right to secede per the constitution, so Serbia was clearly in the wrong for waging war on them.

You know that applies to Crimea too right?

[Lolgo]

You know that applies to Crimea too right?

It sure does. Except it's for the whole country to decide. An all-Ukrainian referendum is what's needed to legally leave. Not a russian-staged show with 160% voter turnout.

[Flarelaine]

You know that applies to Crimea too right?

No. Crimea was never a constituent republic. Ukraine was and they seceded all right. Crimea had been an autonomous republic which may sound similar but means nowhere near the same legal standing. It meant what I just described above - self-determination without independence.

[caervek]

No.

I don't mean to be rude but I was stating a fact not expressing an opinion, as an ASSR Crimea had the constitutional right to choose to go with Ukraine or not, this was denied (because it would have chosen not too).

[Karfal]

If it's actually true, it's a completely wrong move.

Ukraine calls Russian regime authoritarian and tyrannical and at the same time performs pretty much authoritarian and tyrannical acts? Totally stupid.

Ya I hope Russia invades them. He'll take all of Asia and Europe while theyre at it.

[Deleted]

But I guess you all go into full autism mode when Turkey blocks Facebook?

Facebook is no tyrant owned propaganda-outlet. Sputnik and RT are.

[Gaaz]

How exactly is it so hard to understand that it's not in our best interests to collaborate with our enemy? This whole fruit tree analogy falls completely flat on it's butt if you factor in that THEY ARE INVADING OUR COUNTRY? What's so incredibly hard to understand?

It is hard to understand because recently Ukraine seems hell bent on following the North Korea's example of leadership. Albeit with more pretenders to the throne and a large assortment of mob-style governors below them. You argue that Kaspersky, mail.ru and 1C generate profit for Russia? Fine, ban them. But I hope that in the process you realise that 1C for example is a local enterprise. Only the sourse structure belongs to the russians. It's operators, those that sell this software, service it, modify for each particular business are actually in Ukraine. Correct me if I am mistaken, an annual license to a 10man 1C accounting package costs somewhere in the region of 20$ and barely 5$ of that goes to 1C itself as profit. The rest stays in Ukraine. Not only that, but these companies generage additional value with support services along the way, so banning this software not only you hurt yourself much more than the russians, the amount of money involved in it if you subtract local enterprises seems laughable. Your president "en solo" likely generates much more profit by trading with Russia, than all of revenues by 1C, VK, Kaspersky and Dr.Web combined. But whatever rocks your boat. I am sure that evil propaganda among accountants will finally be stopped, they come to their senses and show true ukrainian potential. You know, the one that "feeds half of Europe / Russia" and does not beg for another billion from the IMF every quarter.

I always found that the best antivirus is the one I am running on the customised hardware between my ears.
Not clicking fishy crap is the best defense there is.

Does not always work that way. Except when it concerns US government officials it seems The ones listed are military grade infiltration tools that got out of control, some of them operating for years before being discovered. Remember the phone tap of major european politicians scandal? I doubt thet Merkel or Queen of England surfs for porn on their phone. Also, the events of the past few days with a global infection, allegedly by a reverse engineered military infiltration tool.
Sure, 99% users will be perfectly fine with just using common sense and general AV software. But for things like nuclear power reactors, chemical plants, dambs, road, rail and air traffic controls, and so on, and so forth... you actually need to hire specialists to integrate security software into the equipment and programming. If an antivirus or a firewall fails due to a kid's / idiot's / another government's attack, it is one thing. One person might lose the data, tough break. If the same goes for air traffic control or a nuclear power reactor, consequences are somewhat larger.

[Easo]

Apart from a few museum exhibits that are kept alive for parades, there's a lot more tech that isn't in UGF. To name a few:
Assault rifles: AK-74M, AS Val
Sniper rifles: VSS Vintorez
Anti-materiel rifles: KSVK, ASVK
Anti-tank: 9M133 Kornet
Flamethrowers: MRO-A
Tanks: T-72B3
Infantry Fighting Vehicles: BTR-82AM
Logistics and utility vehicles: GAZ Vodnik
Rocket artillery: Grad-K, TOS-1 Buratino

I specifically remember the BTR-82AM picture. So unless Kazakhstan sent one of theirs, it was "imported" from Russia. Therefore, they did supply rebels with weapons. End of discussion but if only the rubots would get that...

[Lolgo]

I don't mean to be rude but I was stating a fact not expressing an opinion, as an ASSR Crimea had the constitutional right to choose to go with Ukraine or not, this was denied (because it would have chosen not too).

Wrong again. "On 26 February 1992, the Crimean parliament renamed the ASSR the Republic of Crimea and proclaimed self-government on 5 May 1992[16][17] (which was yet to be approved by a referendum that had been planned for 2 August 1992[18] though it was ultimately postponed) and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.[18] On 6 May 1992 the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution that declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.[18]

On 19 May, Crimea agreed to remain part of Ukraine and annulled its proclamation of self-government but Crimean Communists forced the Ukrainian government to expand on the already extensive autonomous status of Crimea.".

Crimea was pretty positive towards Ukraine before russians began their brainwashing there.

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It is hard to understand because recently Ukraine seems hell bent on following the North Korea's example of leadership. Albeit with more pretenders to the throne and a large assortment of mob-style governors below them. You argue that Kaspersky, mail.ru and 1C generate profit for Russia? Fine, ban them. But I hope that in the process you realise that 1C for example is a local enterprise. Only the sourse structure belongs to the russians. It's operators, those that sell this software, service it, modify for each particular business are actually in Ukraine. Correct me if I am mistaken, an annual license to a 10man 1C accounting package costs somewhere in the region of 20$ and barely 5$ of that goes to 1C itself as profit. The rest stays in Ukraine. Not only that, but these companies generage additional value with support services along the way, so banning this software not only you hurt yourself much more than the russians, the amount of money involved in it if you subtract local enterprises seems laughable. Your president "en solo" likely generates much more profit by trading with Russia, than all of revenues by 1C, VK, Kaspersky and Dr.Web combined. But whatever rocks your boat. I am sure that evil propaganda among accountants will finally be stopped, they come to their senses and show true ukrainian potential. You know, the one that "feeds half of Europe / Russia" and does not beg for another billion from the IMF every quarter.

While all of that might be somewhat true you can't go half way with bans. Can't ban one and leave the other. And this North Korea example is completely out of the window. I'll repeat myself for the 1000000th time - do not mistake self-defense for censorship. NATO agrees.

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if only the rubots would get that...

That would imply an ability to understand something that isn't putler-approved.

[Deleted]

Ukraine trying to be all Erdogan Turkey

[Deleted]

Ukraine trying to be all Erdogan Turkey

No, Ukraine locking out disinformation and propaganda.