2 explosions in Manchester Arena - CONFIRMED Fatalities.

[Canpinter]

That you compare such things to a sharp blade is just downright ridiculous.

mid sized rocks are just as dangerous as a small pocket knife, can we ban those?

[Freighter]

Or shape enough to cut what you want to cut. Knives are very handy to have available. But in some places like Ohio, have to be careful what type of knife you carry. Switchblades are illegal to carry concealed.

If you have to open shit in public, use this.

[Ghostpanther]

If you have to open shit in public, use this.

No thanks. I carry a legal knife with me. It works fine and if worse goes to even worse, it may save my life. Then again, I carry ( legally ) a .357 Mag revolver for the really bad stuff.

[mittacc]

I have already answered this, the statement under the one you quoted. I believe this was a false flag.

Perhaps, this is not your question though. Is it the norm for Muslims to commit attacks that are committed by Muslims? That logic just reached Ben Shapiro level.

Nonetheless, you never corrected your logical error.

I didn't mean that it's the norm for muslims to commit acts or terror but it's the norm that terror acts are commited by muslims... What is my "logical error"? I do not actully understand what it is so explain it instead of just saying I made one.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Nobody makes the claim in bold, really.

But that’s just patently untrue.

Just to highlight one very specific example and the words of the person I named in my post, Andy Burnham said on LBC:

The message that I would want to get over – and this is how the vast majority of people feel – this man was a terrorist, not a Muslim.

He does not represent the Muslim community. We’ve got to keep that distinction in mind all the time. This was an unspeakable act. The worst thing that can happen is that people use this to blame an entire community, the Muslim community.

In my view, the man who committed this atrocity no more represents the Muslim community than the individual who murdered my friend Jo Cox represents the white, Christian community.

For me, it goes without saying that of course the terrorist doesn’t represent the entire Muslim community. If people’s ill-informed prejudices make them so blinkered that they can’t distinguish between Salafi-jihadism and other peaceful branches of Islam, then they are bigots.

However, to say that a supporter of Salafi-jihadism is not a Muslim, is ridiculous. Members of IS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, etc.; yes, they are indeed Muslims.

When we point out that they don't represent Islam, it's because they don't represent all Islam. In the same way that men who beat their wives don't represent all men, or the like. Trying to make it about that specific characteristic misses the actual issues, to prejudicially blame innocents for these crimes, solely because of that shared characteristic.

But, I didn’t suggest they represented all Islam and I wasn’t blaming innocents. You’re putting words in my mouth which weren’t there. As an atheist and a social democrat I will condem any form of extremism you want to mention. Any form of terrorism, be it religious or political, is equally vile. But, in this case, to try and suggest that the terrorist’s underlying motivations weren’t tied in intrinsically to his religious faith is nonsensical.

Whenever I see posts like this I can't help but be reminded of this; http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...20151117103929

But on a serious note there has been plenty of condemnation of the Manchester attack from Muslims. And just last year there was the Muslim man who berated that nutter who slashed the guy's throat on the tube - "You ain't no Muslim, bruv!"

Yep, but I didn’t suggest that e.g., 38 year old Mohammed Rahman who attends mosque four times a year has any responsibility whatsoever to atone for the actions of terrorists. All I was pointing out was that I haven’t heard as passionate and unequivocal response from a UK Muslim leader as that made by the Australian Muslim in the video – Imam Tawhidi. All I’ve heard is a lot of crap about the terrorist not being a Muslim.

I find Wahhabism and its current expansion deeply worrying. Wahhabism is ultraconservative, intolerant, repressive, sexist, homophobic and violent. It is also not as small a movement as some are making out. And, yes, we need a serious and open conversation about it.

[Mayhem]

It does not need any justification beyond that people shouldn't be carrying items on their person in public which are dangerously sharp unless it's a part of their job.



Why would you do that in public if you're not working with packages/letters? Besides, opening letters can be done even with fingers.


Get a blunt scissor.



Nope. I am for safety rather than allowing people to carry around dangerous items on their person if they do not use it for work.

You're like the authoritarian version of tennisace.

[Deleted]

Again, your 'argument's can still be rebutted with a single word: "No."

Again,no. But if you want to go full "fingers-in-the-ear lalalala"-mode then that is, ofcourse, your good right. I however opt to go enjoy the good weather than spend more time on mr bankers and politicians are Evol and were even more evol in the past.(lol)

I trust you'll be honest with yourself when you realise, somewhere in the coming years, how dumb a choice eddogan has been. Not for us here in the west, turkey isnt that important for us, but for turks themselves.

Have a good one.

[Mayhem]

Yep, but I didn’t suggest that e.g., 38 year old Mohammed Rahman who attends mosque four times a year has any responsibility whatsoever to atone for the actions of terrorists. All I was pointing out was that I haven’t heard as passionate and unequivocal response from a UK Muslim leader as that made by the Australian Muslim in the video – Imam Tawhidi. All I’ve heard is a lot of crap about the terrorist not being a Muslim.

I find Wahhabism and its current expansion deeply worrying. Wahhabism is ultraconservative, intolerant, repressive, sexist, homophobic and violent. It is also not as small a movement as some are making out. And, yes, we need a serious and open conversation about it.

Care to explain why you think it's needed that a muslim leader reacts? What is gained? What is lost?

[Mafic]

Terrorists often make political statements...and they often represent political movements. If you think about it only from a religious perspective you have fallen for the trap and miss the mark completely.

The Vatican used to have its own standing army and also the Pope Leo III generated politically shockwaves when Charlamange was named Emperor of the H.R.E. Wahhabists and Salifists view it from a political point of view of what they do and preach, and it is codified with laws.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Care to explain why you think it's needed that a muslim leader reacts? What is gained? What is lost?

We need more reaction of the sort from the Australian imam that promotes liberal branches of Islam and condemns the intolerant fundamentalism espoused by other branches. In the same way I'd applaud condemnation of e.g., Timothy McVeigh and his links to Christian paramilitary organisations by mainstream Christians. The argument about reformation within Islam is hugely complex and not something I can contribute a huge deal to. However, it is clear that the rise of Wahhabism is not being effectively countered.

I'm not sure what your point is. You think fundamentalism is something not to be commented on? To be swept under the carpet?

[Post]

But, I didn’t suggest they represented all Islam and I wasn’t blaming innocents. You’re putting words in my mouth which weren’t there.

He did the same thing to me, no matter what I said he just said I thought all muslims are bad. It's like a trained response to any criticism of anyone who happens to be muslim.

[Deleted]

We need more reaction of the sort from the Australian imam that promotes liberal branches of Islam and condemns the intolerant fundamentalism espoused by other branches. In the same way I'd applaud condemnation of e.g., Timothy McVeigh and his links to Christian paramilitary organisations by mainstream Christians. The argument about reformation within Islam is hugely complex and not something I can contribute a huge deal to. However, it is clear that the rise of Wahhabism is not being effectively countered.

I'm not sure what your point is. You think fundamentalism is something not to be commented on? To be swept under the carpet?

The rise of wahhabism is not countered because wahhabism is supported and endorsed fully by the west. Having said that, Muslim scholars across the world have taken decisive actions against terrorism. You wont find a unified answer simply because they don't have a pope figure.

[Mayhem]

We need more reaction of the sort from the Australian imam that promotes liberal branches of Islam and condemns the intolerant fundamentalism espoused by other branches. In the same way I'd applaud condemnation of e.g., Timothy McVeigh and his links to Christian paramilitary organisations by mainstream Christians. The argument about reformation within Islam is hugely complex and not something I can contribute a huge deal to. However, it is clear that the rise of Wahhabism is not being effectively countered.

I'm not sure what your point is. You think fundamentalism is something not to be commented on? To be swept under the carpet?

I simply asked what is gained or what is lost by having muslim leaders reacting. It's not like the fundamentalists will listen, just like the christians in the US aren't really listening to the Pope if what he says is against their ideas. At least you're consistent.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I simply asked what is gained or what is lost by having muslim leaders reacting. It's not like the fundamentalists will listen, just like the christians in the US aren't really listening to the Pope if what he says is against their ideas. At least you're consistent.

You think all Christians in the US are Catholic? Is that the extent of your understanding of Christianity? It's like the reformation never happened...

What is gained by promotion of liberal branches of Islam and condemnation of fundamentalism by religious leaders?

- How would reform take place unless other branches of Islam didn't make their voices heard?
- Allowing a wider understanding of Islam as a whole. To combat the mindless bigotry you and others are highlighting.
- A rejection of literalist interpretations of the Quran.
- A rejection of the effects literalist interpretations of the Quran have, seen very clearly in the actions of the terrorists & the behaviour of states such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen etc. towards women, homosexuals, Muslims of different sects, people of other religions.

Still not sure what your point is. You're saying because fundamentalists won't listen there's no point trying? That's fuel to the flames of intolerance and division.

[Deleted]

You think all Christians in the US are Catholic? Is that the extent of your understanding of Christianity? It's like the reformation never happened...

What is gained by promotion of liberal branches of Islam and condemnation of fundamentalism by religious leaders?

- How would reform take place unless other branches of Islam didn't make their voices heard?
- Allowing a wider understanding of Islam as a whole. To combat the mindless bigotry you and others are highlighting.
- A rejection of literalist interpretations of the Quran.
- A rejection of the effects literalist interpretations of the Quran have, seen very clearly in the actions of the terrorists & the behaviour of states such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen etc. towards women, homosexuals, Muslims of different sects, people of other religions.

Still not sure what your point is. You're saying because fundamentalists won't listen there's no point trying? That's fuel to the flames of intolerance and division.

The muslim world does criticise wahhabism. It's just that it's VERY powerful right now because of our blind support that spanned all across the 20th century and is still ongoing. To put it bluntly, wahhabism was a tiny little sect. We helped put it on the map.
Look at the countries we took actions in the middle east. We destabilised countries that had nothing to do with Islam while propping up the wahhabi extremists. How do you think that's going to work? How can the muslim world do anything about it?

[primalmatter]

Most of us have more respect for human rights than that. Because that's what you're describing; attacking the human rights of innocent people over a vanishingly tiny possibility. It's no different than saying that you're going to ban knives everywhere because someone might get stabbed if you don't.

It's paranoia, nothing more.



ISIS is perhaps 20,000 people.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims.



Which would demonstrate nothing, unless all Muslims agreed with their interpretations, and the overwhelming majority do not.



This isn't an argument, you get that, right? It's not like there's any pattern of any group flying planes into skyscrapers. It happened one time.

If you mean other bombings by the IRA, the most recent that I'm aware of was in March. This year. If we discount the bomb attempt in April where it didn't go off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...n_Army_actions

Yes there are 1.6 Muslims and violence is for the most part their religion and culture. I have no idea why you reserve violence to isis. The rest still gladly kill thejr daughters for a slight. What you need to do is read the quran with a sticky note you glance at every ten seconds saying "The vaste majority of Muslims believe this word for word".

They are not at the point of being bcon eating jews yet. Violence is their culture and way of life forget that at yoir peril.

[Nigel Tufnel]

The muslim world does criticise wahhabism. It's just that it's VERY powerful right now because of our blind support that spanned all across the 20th century and is still ongoing. To put it bluntly, wahhabism was a tiny little sect. We helped put it on the map.
Look at the countries we took actions in the middle east. We destabilised countries that had nothing to do with Islam while propping up the wahhabi extremists. How do you think that's going to work? How can the muslim world do anything about it?

Yep, I completely agree. But I don't think burying heads in sand will help. You know - I'm more than happy to vote for whatever politician in the UK who says they'll treat Saudi Arabia with more caution, criticise the human rights records of these nations, not just prioritise our trade links, not create power vacuums in the Middle East etc.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that our actions have contributed to this. I'm just questioning what the solution should be.

[mittacc]

Assuming that i think it is the norm is the logical error.

"It's almost always clear, you know it, we know it, everyone know it. At this point we should assume that this is the case by default since it's the norm."

That's why I asked you if you didn't think it was the norm after that reply. Missed that part? Don't you think that terrorist acts are mostly commited by muslims today? The ones that weren't the last decade that I know of are Breivik and Anton Lundin Pettersson.

[Pann]

Yep, but I didn’t suggest that e.g., 38 year old Mohammed Rahman who attends mosque four times a year has any responsibility whatsoever to atone for the actions of terrorists. All I was pointing out was that I haven’t heard as passionate and unequivocal response from a UK Muslim leader as that made by the Australian Muslim in the video – Imam Tawhidi. All I’ve heard is a lot of crap about the terrorist not being a Muslim.

I find Wahhabism and its current expansion deeply worrying. Wahhabism is ultraconservative, intolerant, repressive, sexist, homophobic and violent. It is also not as small a movement as some are making out. And, yes, we need a serious and open conversation about it.

No-one would have expected Father Jones from Berkshire to come out with a passionate and unequivocal response when the IRA busy blowing up things.

The Mosque where the bomber worshipped had reported him because they thought he had become radicalised. And if you watched Question Time this week there was plenty of Muslims condemning the actions of terrorists and one Muslim lady specifically mentioned closing Saudi backed Mosques.

[Mayhem]

You think all Christians in the US are Catholic? Is that the extent of your understanding of Christianity? It's like the reformation never happened...

Are you telling me all christians in the US are protestants? Anyway, as that obviously wasn't my point, would you agree or disagree with what i said?

What is gained by promotion of liberal branches of Islam and condemnation of fundamentalism by religious leaders?

- How would reform take place unless other branches of Islam didn't make their voices heard?
- Allowing a wider understanding of Islam as a whole. To combat the mindless bigotry you and others are highlighting.
- A rejection of literalist interpretations of the Quran.
- A rejection of the effects literalist interpretations of the Quran have, seen very clearly in the actions of the terrorists & the behaviour of states such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen etc. towards women, homosexuals, Muslims of different sects, people of other religions.

So to put this into perspective, you think a protestant would care about what the pope has to say about anything regarding his form of christianity? They don't view him as their religious leader, so what makes you think that fundamentalists would care about what the leader from another form of islam had to say about their interpretation of islam?

Still not sure what your point is. You're saying because fundamentalists won't listen there's no point trying? That's fuel to the flames of intolerance and division.

Fundamentalists don't listen because they don't see those religious leaders as worth listening to as they follow the wrong form of islam.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes there are 1.6 Muslims and violence is for the most part their religion and culture. I have no idea why you reserve violence to isis. The rest still gladly kill thejr daughters for a slight. What you need to do is read the quran with a sticky note you glance at every ten seconds saying "The vaste majority of Muslims believe this word for word".

They are not at the point of being bcon eating jews yet. Violence is their culture and way of life forget that at yoir peril.

This post is just disgusting and vile, nothing more.