Odyn is a terrible character

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Odyn is poorly-written in the exact same way a lot of WoWs characters are: if there ARE any interesting tales to tell about them, they are offered as backstory when it SHOULD be happening in the present. For our purposes, Odyn is merely offered as a construct helping us stop the Legion. Hes not very interesting in the CURRENT story.

That makes no sense. The only tale about him is in the chronicles. We know what he has done during Legion.

[Mehrunes]

I'm just becoming annoyed by how monotone he is. Everything is about strength, battle, warriors etc. Yeah yeah I get it dude. Shut it.

Would you like some VALOR while you wait for Odyn's response?

[Kokolums]

That makes sense. The only tale about him is in the chronicles. We know what he has done during Legion.

This is a flaw a LOT of terrible writers have. They create characters and make up interesting tales, but the interesting tales are offered as backstory, and the actual tale being told is where heroes crush the villains. Odyn has a good story about betrayal and his imprisonment and how that affects him and everything and everyone else...but its not happening NOW. A good writer would write that tale into the CURRENT story and then your story is about how the heroes react to it all.

I think this is why we so often see prequels or the desire for prequels across various fictional universes. There are amazing tales but just created as backstory, and a GOOD writer comes along and actually wants to tell the INTERESTING story that was ignored.

Because the interesting story about Odyn is merely offered as backstory, Odyn is terribly written in Legion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

This is a flaw a LOT of terrible writers have. They create characters and make up interesting tales, but the interesting tales are offered as backstory, and the actual tale being told is where heroes crush the villains. Odyn has a good story about betrayal and his imprisonment and how that affects him and everything and everyone else...but its not happening NOW. A good writer would write that tale into the CURRENT story and then your story is about how the heroes react to it all.

I think this is why we so often see prequels or the desire for prequels across various fictional universes. There are amazing tales but just created as backstory, and a GOOD writer comes along and actually wants to tell the INTERESTING story that was ignored.

Because the interesting story about Odyn is merely offered as backstory, Odyn is terribly written in Legion.

The only way it could be done is Caverns of Time or a lot of flashback related stuff and how would that be seen via Gameplay? Not exactly a simple thing as you put it.

[Kokolums]

The only way it could be done is Caverns of Time or a lot of flashback related stuff and how would that be seen via Gameplay? Not exactly a simple thing as you put it.

Huh? Its real simple. Just write it.

[Teleros]

I disagree. I actually find Odyn to be quite the good character. However, not good as in good alignment, but good as in not a straight-laced "good" character. Morally grey characters are much more interesting and relatable.

Perhaps, but not when they act like a straight-up goody two-shoes whenever a player is around.

Odyn mind-raped Helya (and possibly others) into becoming a Val'kyr, not to mention trying to assassinate Skovald's family, and has shown sod all remorse or regret over it. I don't mind him not liking the dragons and such - having differences of opinion over policy / strategy is fine - but he's acted like quite an arsehole in the past, yet when you walk up to him, it's all "hail noble & valorous hero - like me!" :P .

He'd be a ripe target for the Sha of Pride, TBH.

= + =

Illidan I think is a better character, for the same reason. He doesn't even pretend to be nice, or to not have done terrible things. It's all "I'll pay any price, do any deed, to save Azeroth", and WYSIWYG. I miss the old Illidan (ie, back when he had the hots for Tyrande, and not just killing demons :P ), but hey ho. Either way, he did bad things, knew it, and the worst you can say is that he thought he was doing the right / the good thing (eg new Well of Eternity, Skull of Gul'dan, Eye of Sargeras, etc etc etc).

Odyn's a complete hypocrite by comparison.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Perhaps, but not when they act like a straight-up goody two-shoes whenever a player is around.

Odyn mind-raped Helya (and possibly others) into becoming a Val'kyr, not to mention trying to assassinate Skovald's family, and has shown sod all remorse or regret over it. I don't mind him not liking the dragons and such - having differences of opinion over policy / strategy is fine - but he's acted like quite an arsehole in the past, yet when you walk up to him, it's all "hail noble & valorous hero - like me!" :P .

He'd be a ripe target for the Sha of Pride, TBH.

= + =

Illidan I think is a better character, for the same reason. He doesn't even pretend to be nice, or to not have done terrible things. It's all "I'll pay any price, do any deed, to save Azeroth", and WYSIWYG. I miss the old Illidan (ie, back when he had the hots for Tyrande, and not just killing demons :P ), but hey ho. Either way, he did bad things, knew it, and the worst you can say is that he thought he was doing the right / the good thing (eg new Well of Eternity, Skull of Gul'dan, Eye of Sargeras, etc etc etc).

Odyn's a complete hypocrite by comparison.

Well, I see your points, however, I'd have to disagree. I see it more as entirely the opposite of the way that you do, seeing Illidan as the more hypocritical character than Odyn in terms of "greater good." Odyn is a titan watcher, arguably the greatest one of them and possibly their leader in a sense, titan constructs see us, the player characters, the less races that many of us either spawned naturally from the planet or are flesh corrupted defects of pawns that they created to fight in an ancient war.

To them, notably Odyn, it would be like saying that a common tool has rights. Life and power are tools of the titans and titan watchers, and we are either byproducts of it, or vermin that existed before they were placed to watch the world develop. His lack of compassion amidst concepts of greater good are understandable. We, essentially all PCs and NPCs, especially the Valajar/Vrykul/Val'kyr are tools to fight wars with in favor of the titans to him. Like tools, you favor those that work and function beyond the average, which is his reasoning for valor and glory. Regardless of how achieved, mighty, and victorious we will ever be, we are still tools either made, designed, or re-purposed for the means of fighting for them, and they will likely never see us as equals (unless, way down the line, we become the equivalent of titans and/or titan waters... >.> )

Illidan is different story, I get the underdog concept as well as the constant blame that falls in his lap for notions of greater good. However, Illidan is also just a mortal much more similar to the current heroes of Azeroth than Odyn is. While he had to scrape by most of his early career, he's much greater and much more prideful in himself than he has ever been before, and he has no issue rubbing it in as you mentioned. Combine this with X'era's sickening prophecy, and its a silver platter of preordained starchild fate, which completely contrast's Illidan's struggle from a meta perspective. Altogether, it leaves a significantly sour taste in one's mouth with how he currently acts.

I agree with how you feel about Illidan prior to Legion, however, especially when he was infatuated with Tyrande, as it was a relatable achillies' heel for him. Making him more believable and understanding as a character which combined with the whole underdog theme and struggle he suffered. However, you barely get any of that quality sort of sensation from his story narrative anymore.

[George Costanza]

All current warcraft characters are boring and shitty

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Tyrande love is still there(The cinematic when Illidan is defeated at the Black Temple). Clearly he still loves her.

[Teleros]

I see it more as entirely the opposite of the way that you do, seeing Illidan as the more hypocritical character than Odyn in terms of "greater good."

I think Illidan's biggest weakness in this regard was that it wasn't clear (from TFT until Legion, basically) that his stuff in Outland was for any purpose other than his own. Legion's retconned that though, so meh.

To them, notably Odyn, it would be like saying that a common tool has rights.

Then Odyn is an enormous arsehole. A hammer is not alive, and certainly can't reason or produce art. The intelligent races of Azeroth can, however, so viewing them as objects - ie as property - is akin to slavery. Sure, slavery is a perfectly normal thing, but "normal" does not equal "good". The fact that Odyn can't realise this, or doesn't care, makes him an arsehole.

His lack of compassion amidst concepts of greater good are understandable.

I don't mind his lack of compassion - if anything, given the stakes involved, I approve - rather, I dislike his two-faced nature. He claims to be Mr Goody-Two-Shoes, whilst as I said, mind-raping Helya & assassinating Skovald's kids. Both are arguably justified, but not his behaviour regarding them.

they will likely never see us as equals (unless, way down the line, we become the equivalent of titans and/or titan waters... >.> )

Well that's fair enough - our characters aren't the equals of things like Odyn, for a host of reasons (height, for starters ). But just because I'm 100 IQ points smarter than you doesn't mean I should view you as just a tool, or give me any other right to ride roughshod over you.

Illidan is different story, I get the underdog concept as well as the constant blame that falls in his lap for notions of greater good. However, Illidan is also just a mortal much more similar to the current heroes of Azeroth than Odyn is. While he had to scrape by most of his early career, he's much greater and much more prideful in himself than he has ever been before, and he has no issue rubbing it in as you mentioned. Combine this with X'era's sickening prophecy, and its a silver platter of preordained starchild fate, which completely contrast's Illidan's struggle from a meta perspective. Altogether, it leaves a significantly sour taste in one's mouth with how he currently acts.

Like I said, I don't like the current Illidan, but we haven't yet seen him as the Child of Light & Dark or w/e it was. So far, at least, we've seen him be an arrogant sod, but his attitude always seems to be "oh hey, I was right all along, you bunch of squeamish pansies" rather than "I'm the personification of honour - let's go mind-rape someone!" :P .

Making him more believable and understanding as a character which combined with the whole underdog theme and struggle he suffered. However, you barely get any of that quality sort of sensation from his story narrative anymore.

i think he should just have stayed dead, TBH. Make the living DH NPC hero Altruis the Sufferer or someone like that, and maybe introduce a Nightborne or Warden or someone to help fill Legion-Illidan's shoes. Heck, maybe Lothraxion - a holy dreadlord is a pretty interesting character, after all. Or just go all-out and have Turalyon & Alleria return to be big damn heroes again. Just... let Illidan stay dead.

[Qualia]

Then Odyn is an enormous arsehole. A hammer is not alive, and certainly can't reason or produce art. The intelligent races of Azeroth can, however, so viewing them as objects - ie as property - is akin to slavery. Sure, slavery is a perfectly normal thing, but "normal" does not equal "good". The fact that Odyn can't realise this, or doesn't care, makes him an arsehole.

Well that's fair enough - our characters aren't the equals of things like Odyn, for a host of reasons (height, for starters ). But just because I'm 100 IQ points smarter than you doesn't mean I should view you as just a tool, or give me any other right to ride roughshod over you.

I believe this has been brought up and discussed a few times. The issue with it is not that Odyn was more powerful than others, but that he is a Titan Keeper. On the other hand, Helya and the first generation of Val'kyr were part of the first few generations of the Vrykul. The Titan Keepers were created by the Titan first to enforce the Pantheon's wills on Azeroth, and later to shape / safeguard the planet. The Vrykul, or any other Titan-forged being that wasn't a Keeper, were created artificially by either the Pantheon or the Keeper themselves to follow and serve the Keepers in their tasks. Assisting / serving the Keepers is pretty much their reason of existence.

So, come back to the issue with Odyn. Some of us (the players) views his enslavement of Helya as a bad action since we perceive them both as living beings equally in existence (just not in power). However, is that really the case? They weren't equal from the start - Helya (and other first generations of Vrykul) existed for the sole purpose of helping the Keepers. They weren't born, they were created for that purpose. In a way, does that make them much difference from androids with a perfectly human-like AI (in the sense that they were both created, their intellect, soul and reason to exist were given to them by their creators from start)? One can argue that in Odyn's view, he was merely force Helya to do what she was created for.

Just imagine this: if one day we (human IRL) manage to create the perfect AI that is both smarter than us (either in certain fields or just in overall) and capable of learning, thinking and feeling (which might happen relatively soon, supposedly within 50-70 years or so), are we going to call ourselves (or any kind of leading machines created by us) asshole or evil for forcing those perfect AIs to work for humanity and reprogramming (the equivalent of brainwashing) them if they refuse to?

[Teleros]

The issue with it is not that Odyn was more powerful than others, but that he is a Titan Keeper. On the other hand, Helya and the first generation of Val'kyr were part of the first few generations of the Vrykul. The Titan Keepers were created by the Titan first to enforce the Pantheon's wills on Azeroth, and later to shape / safeguard the planet. The Vrykul, or any other Titan-forged being that wasn't a Keeper, were created artificially by either the Pantheon or the Keeper themselves to follow and serve the Keepers in their tasks. Assisting / serving the Keepers is pretty much their reason of existence.

That's not the issue - or at least, it's not how I view it. To my mind it's about free will. Helya is a sapient being with free will, and therefore mind-raping her like Odyn did is a despicable act. Oh sure, it might have been necessary and all that - I'm not arguing against that - but I absolutely dislike Odyn's public relations, if you will.

So, come back to the issue with Odyn. Some of us (the players) views his enslavement of Helya as a bad action since we perceive them both as living beings equally in existence (just not in power). However, is that really the case? They weren't equal from the start - Helya (and other first generations of Vrykul) existed for the sole purpose of helping the Keepers. They weren't born, they were created for that purpose. In a way, does that make them much difference from androids with a perfectly human-like AI (in the sense that they were both created, their intellect, soul and reason to exist were given to them by their creators from start)? One can argue that in Odyn's view, he was merely force Helya to do what she was created for.

If you create an AI that can reason like humans, and has free will, then IMHO it would absolutely be immoral to enslave it.

Just imagine this: if one day we (human IRL) manage to create the perfect AI that is both smarter than us (either in certain fields or just in overall) and capable of learning, thinking and feeling (which might happen relatively soon, supposedly within 50-70 years or so), are we going to call ourselves (or any kind of leading machines created by us) asshole or evil for forcing those perfect AIs to work for humanity and reprogramming (the equivalent of brainwashing) them if they refuse to?

Yes, anyone who did that would be evil to do that. The only exception would be if the AIs were designed such that they did not object, or even approved, of being used as just smart tools.

Human: "Hi, Windows 9001 PC, I'm going to smelt you down into scrap parts and replace you with a Windows 9002 PC."
AI 1: "Okay. Would you like recommendations on which Win9002 PC would best meet your needs, based on how you've used me?"
AI 2: "I do not care what happens to AI 1, because I'm literally incapable of caring."

Under a situation like that, fine (although even then, I imagine some people would object). But what, morally, is the difference between Odyn mind-raping Helya and enslaving her, and... oh I don't know, the slave trade, say? You're taking someone with free will and enslaving them either way. To say someone with free will can be treated like a disposable tool because XYZ is quite literally the most totalitarian of ideas.

"Oh, your a black person, off to the cotton fields."
"Oh, your a member of the bourgeoisie, off to the gulag."
"Oh, you're a Jew, off to the concentration camp."
"Oh, you're made by a Keeper, time for some mind-raping action."

[Qualia]

If you create an AI that can reason like humans, and has free will, then IMHO it would absolutely be immoral to enslave it.

Yes, anyone who did that would be evil to do that. The only exception would be if the AIs were designed such that they did not object, or even approved, of being used as just smart tools.

Okay, I guess this is where our opinions differ and we can only agree to disagree here since in the end, it's a matter of opinions. Personally, as a developers, I'd have no qualms about modifying my codes to work for me - having feeling & free will or not. After all, that's why they (the AIs, or those first few Vrykul generations in-game) exist - they wouldn't be created if not for that purpose. And to be honest, I doubt that the day we can create perfect AI, anyone but maybe a very minority would oppose making them work for us. Glory to mankind and all that.

Under a situation like that, fine (although even then, I imagine some people would object). But what, morally, is the difference between Odyn mind-raping Helya and enslaving her, and... oh I don't know, the slave trade, say? You're taking someone with free will and enslaving them either way. To say someone with free will can be treated like a disposable tool because XYZ is quite literally the most totalitarian of ideas.

The issue with the slave trading example is that both the slave trader and the slave are humans and our morality are centered around humans. We are taught, in modern standard, that all humans are the same beings, supposedly born free and equally. That wasn't the case with Odyn (or the Keepers) and Helya (or the first few generations of the Titan-forged). They weren't born, they were created, with a predetermined hierarchy and purposes designed by their creators. They were never equal to begin with, and without the purpose of assisting / serving the Keepers, Helya wouldn't even exist (the same can be said for the Keepers & Pantheon's relationship). In fact, now that we talk about it, the Pantheon were much worse than Odyn (reshaping living beings? Tick; Imbuing them with memories to serve you? Tick; Re-originating worlds - in other words, destroy all living beings when they don't fit your idea of Order? Tick) and we don't see many people calling the Titans hypocrite for doing all that while claiming that they love life - simply because they don't share the same moral compass as mortals.

In a way, I'd say it's closer to the relationship between a farmer and his chickens, or a scientist and his lab rat. Even though the chickens / experimental animals are capable of free thoughts and have feeling, we don't see people at large (well, except maybe the minority of PETA) calling the former evil for killing, eating or performing experiments on the later, as that later groups were specifically born for that purpose.

[Kralljin]

Re-originating worlds - in other words, destroy all living beings when they don't fit your idea of Order? Tick) and we don't see many people calling the Titans hypocrite for doing all that while claiming that they love life - simply because they don't share the same moral compass as mortals.

While the comparison is not untrue, the difference is that the Re-originating world was truly a last failsafe to prevent Azeroth from becoming corrupted by the Old Gods.

I mean before Re-Origination takes place, at least two things had to happen:

1.The Prime Designate is killed
2.Algalon judges the World defense systems as entirely corrupted

While the second point is kinda open to interpretation, it makes it clear that Azeroth would be lost without intervention.

The problem with Odyn was simply that his actions led to his undoing, if his Valarjar would have truly been the eternal, incorruptible beings as he imagined them, and actually protected Azeroth during the War of the Ancients, from the Avatar of Sargeras and so forth, then i would say Odyns actions were "not good but neccessary".

However, his actions ended up removing himself from the game, sure the Dragon Aspects turned out be not so great Guardians after all, but Odyns actions had the consequence of an Old God Servant becoming Prime Designate and unleashed Helya and her Kvaldir on Azeroth.

The lesson from Odyn is not that doing something that some may view as immoral is bad, it's rather that you should sure that they are the only real options and they actually make things better in the greater picture.

Odyns downfall echoes that of the Mogu, the Mogu thought they could enslave the Pandaren because it was their right, Odyn thought he could just enforce loyalty from Helya, both ended up failing their tasks in the end, despite having "good intentions" in the large picture.

[StationaryHawk]

While the comparison is not untrue, the difference is that the Re-originating world was truly a last failsafe to prevent Azeroth from becoming corrupted by the Old Gods.

I mean before Re-Origination takes place, at least two things had to happen:

1.The Prime Designate is killed
2.Algalon judges the World defense systems as entirely corrupted

While the second point is kinda open to interpretation, it makes it clear that Azeroth would be lost without intervention.

The problem with Odyn was simply that his actions led to his undoing, if his Valarjar would have truly been the eternal, incorruptible beings as he imagined them, and actually protected Azeroth during the War of the Ancients, from the Avatar of Sargeras and so forth, then i would say Odyns actions were "not good but neccessary".

However, his actions ended up removing himself from the game, sure the Dragon Aspects turned out be not so great Guardians after all, but Odyns actions had the consequence of an Old God Servant becoming Prime Designate and unleashed Helya and her Kvaldir on Azeroth.

The lesson from Odyn is not that doing something that some may view as immoral is bad, it's rather that you should sure that they are the only real options and they actually make things better in the greater picture.

Odyns downfall echoes that of the Mogu, the Mogu thought they could enslave the Pandaren because it was their right, Odyn thought he could just enforce loyalty from Helya, both ended up failing their tasks in the end, despite having "good intentions" in the large picture.

Algalon's decision to activate the Re-Origination process was based on the knowledge that the Titans' own defenses had fallen to corruption. Like Odyn, the Titans clearly believed that their creations were Azeroth's best (and only) hope, and were willing to wipe the slate clean should they fail when ultimately its denizens have proven to be better suited for the task. The consequence of letting them have their way would have been the loss of all life on Azeroth.

Algalon's shock at our resistance is proof that Odyn's way of thinking isn't unique.

[Zulkhan]

The sadness when you read a thread's title and instantly realize who created it.

Even Nightelvennessness? Also, those are rookie examples. This, on the other hand, requires years of practice to go by unphased.

The heroes of MMO-Champion. I miss good 'ol Talen, my longest post ever was entirely dedicated to an argument of his.

Kil'jaeden is terribly written but for different reasons.

This guy is supposed to be a deceiver, master manipulator, yet his every machination turned against him.

Let's not forget the irony of a guy supposed to deceive people deliberately calling himself The Deceiver.

[Teleros]

After all, that's why they (the AIs, or those first few Vrykul generations in-game) exist - they wouldn't be created if not for that purpose.

I know this is getting back to the "morality for humans" thing (more on below), but I do believe you're responsible for your actions, even accidental ones to an extent. I mean, if you engage in casual sex and end up with a child 9 months later, it was clearly an accident, but it's still a person, with all the moral issues that entails.

And to be honest, I doubt that the day we can create perfect AI, anyone but maybe a very minority would oppose making them work for us.

Having perfect servants is a whole 'nothing can of worms I think, though for different reasons.

The issue with the slave trading example is that both the slave trader and the slave are humans and our morality are centered around humans. We are taught, in modern standard, that all humans are the same beings, supposedly born free and equally. That wasn't the case with Odyn (or the Keepers) and Helya (or the first few generations of the Titan-forged). They weren't born, they were created, with a predetermined hierarchy and purposes designed by their creators. They were never equal to begin with, and without the purpose of assisting / serving the Keepers, Helya wouldn't even exist (the same can be said for the Keepers & Pantheon's relationship).

What we're taught is objectively a lie, though. I have an IQ of 100, you have one of 65. I have genes for resistance to cancer, you get cystic fibrosis. I'm born into the British royal family, you as the daughter of a Chinese woman who's after a son. Point is, we were never equal to begin with, not in any measurable way, but instead we say "even though we're different on so many levels, we will agree to treat each other as morally the same, because that's the right thing to do for people with free will & all that". Even if there's a caste system in place, or different species (eg aliens) involved, this kind of universal morality still applies. The fact that the Titans, Keepers etc were so much more powerful than their creations in my mind just means they have an even greater responsibility to behave well.

In fact, now that we talk about it, the Pantheon were much worse than Odyn (reshaping living beings? Tick; Imbuing them with memories to serve you? Tick; Re-originating worlds - in other words, destroy all living beings when they don't fit your idea of Order? Tick) and we don't see many people calling the Titans hypocrite for doing all that while claiming that they love life - simply because they don't share the same moral compass as mortals.

Re-originating seems to be a weapon of last resort - much like our nukes are today - and given the stakes involved, I sympathise with them. Altering living beings... that depends on whether they have free will or not - I don't care nearly so much about turning beasts into thinking creatures (or indeed other beasts), because the intellect is not there in the original creature. Obviously though, it's different when the Titans go about playing Brave New World on intelligent creatures.

In a way, I'd say it's closer to the relationship between a farmer and his chickens, or a scientist and his lab rat. Even though the chickens / experimental animals are capable of free thoughts and have feeling, we don't see people at large (well, except maybe the minority of PETA) calling the former evil for killing, eating or performing experiments on the later, as that later groups were specifically born for that purpose.

Chickens & lab rats (etc) aren't reasoning beings like humans, though - that's the key difference for most people, I suspect.

But still, let's say it's the same. I think it's fair to say that there are few scientists who simultaneously claim to be as pure as PETA and go experiment on lab rats all the time - which is basically what Odyn is doing re Helya and all that.

[Qualia]

While the comparison is not untrue, the difference is that the Re-originating world was truly a last failsafe to prevent Azeroth from becoming corrupted by the Old Gods.

I was actually thinking about the Re-originating process on planets other than Azeroth, though, the one that were implemented (possibly triggered?) way before the Pantheon were ever aware of the Old Gods and their corruptions. The Pantheon simply purge those worlds of life if they deemed the planet's evolutionary path succumbed to disorder. They did all that while still truly love life at the same time because, at least in my opinion, they have different moral standards (or at least scale) than us (be it ourselves or our in-game character).

I think the same can be applied to some extent on Odyn: I don't deny that Odyn's actions towards Helya and the first generation of the Val'kyr can be morally questionable at best, and evil at worst in our point of view. However, I was arguing against that whether it makes Odyn a hypocrite or an asshole for not thinking so. That argument can only be true if Odyn himself consider it an evil act. However, they (the Titans and the Keepers) operate on a different moral framework from ours, and having different standards / hierarchy as well. That's why I brought up the question of how Odyn (and other Keepers) might have ultimately viewed other Titanforged beings - it's possible that while they did get along well, in the end, the former would consider the later creations made to assist them (and some of the later did consider the former Gods to follow). If that was the case, in Odyn's view, he might just forced Helya to do what she was created for and did not consider it an evil act - in other words, that doesn't make him a hypocrite or two-faced.

Whether Odyn's action was smart or at least a good decision not is another issue, I guess. I think it'd make my post too long (as if it isn't already long enough :P) if I'm to elaborate my opinion about that. Just that, while it might not be the best plan, is it really fair to judge his action based on the current result when there were a number of very unexpected factor involved? Is Odyn retarded for not considering the chance of all of his seemingly almost unchallenged masters (the Pantheon) to die unexpectedly? If that didn't happen, there is a good chance that Odyn's plan would have succeeded, given that Yogg only managed to (with difficult) corrupt Loken because the later was heavily affected by the event of Pantheon's souls slamming into the Keepers.

Chickens & lab rats (etc) aren't reasoning beings like humans, though - that's the key difference for most people, I suspect.

But still, let's say it's the same. I think it's fair to say that there are few scientists who simultaneously claim to be as pure as PETA and go experiment on lab rats all the time - which is basically what Odyn is doing re Helya and all that.

But they are. They are capable of thinking, learning, having emotion and empathizing, they are just way slower than us. However, the basics of possessing feelings and free wills - which are the most important, otherwise retarded (literally) people would have no rights - are still there. I believe we are still eating chickens and performing experiments on lab rats (and other animals) not because they aren't capable of reasoning, but because (1) they aren't the same being as us, (2) they were born for that purpose and (3) for the greater good, as cheesy as it sounds. All of those (3) can be applied to Odyn / Helya case.

Of course, as I pointed out in above parts, I don't deny that some people might view that as bad or evil. We all might have similar, but not necessarily the exact same moral standards, after all. I agree that what Odyn did to Helya can be seen as morally questionable at best, and evil at worse from our perspective. However, my point is that, the other side (Odyn in WoW, scientists in real life, or simply people who eat meat / fishes daily) might not view it as such, and it doesn't make them hypocrite or two faced for doing so. The scientists were just doing what they did on a being that were born for that purpose for the greater good, and similarly, Odyn did what he did on a being (Helya) that were created for the purpose of serving him (and his other Keepers friends) for the greater good as well.

[Teleros]

But they are. They are capable of thinking, learning, having emotion and empathizing, they are just way slower than us.

Probably the best way I can put it ATM is to go to someone like Thomas Aquinas. Humans have souls, which makes them reasoning beings, capable of abstract thinking etc. Animals don't have souls (or at least, not that kind), and so can't do the same - we're "made God's image" is how most theologians put it. I think anyone who's ever had a pet dog will know that dogs can feel emotions, learn things etc... but that's not the same thing as being reasoning entities.

I agree that what Odyn did to Helya can be seen as morally questionable at best, and evil at worse from our perspective. However, my point is that, the other side (Odyn in WoW, scientists in real life, or simply people who eat meat / fishes daily) might not view it as such, and it doesn't make them hypocrite or two faced for doing so.

I'd buy that if Odyn had a clearly different morality, but he doesn't seem to. He's all about traditional martial virtues, basically - where does being okay with mind-raping subordinates come into that?

I actually like a well done character who holds to a different moral code (some of the best I've ever read are from the old sci-fi "Lensman" books, FWIW), but if Odyn is one of these, he's appallingly designed, seeing as I can't tell the difference between his code and ours, and view him as an idiot as a result :P .

The scientists were just doing what they did on a being that were born for that purpose for the greater good, and similarly, Odyn did what he did on a being (Helya) that were created for the purpose of serving him (and his other Keepers friends) for the greater good as well.

When people do things for the greater good, or say they're doing it for that, what they mean is "this is a bad thing to do, but it will cause a lot more good to happen in the future than if it was not done". Again, that's fine - it's just not what we see from Odyn. He doesn't seem to have any idea that what he did to Helya was wrong, or even that it was why she rebelled against him. "WTF why don't you like me for mind-raping you?" if you will.

[Trassk]

When, odyn has never shown regret for anything he has done. That's kinda his characterization, the ultimate warrior knob.

yep, and its kinda why I can't stand the guy. Helya might be a generic twisted bitch but i'm certain she'd be honest about the fact, Odyn acts high and mighty but it just disingenuous.