Putin vows military response if Sweden joins NATO

[Dwarfhamster]

As if Russia's military is able to much in a full scale war. And no, taking over a part of Ukraine doesn't amount to much.

[Skroe]

Crimea has always been Russian, blame Khrushchev the Ukrainian for causing this by ilegally transferring it.

I hope you remember think that in the future.

This is the map of China, with territory the decaying Qing Empire transfered to Russia.



Another view.



The red is what China "used to be" and was "always Chinese"



The day will come this century, when Russia, the weaker power in Eurasia, is confronted by the mighter power, China, to repeal the last of the unequal treaties, namely the Treaty of Aigun, the Convention of Peking, and the Li-Lobanov Treaty, and reclaim its lost territories.

And considering how many "Ethnic Han" people populate the Russian Far East compared to ethnic Russians, China will likely also seek to "protect" them in the way Russia disingenuously claims to do with its populations in Eastern Europe.

So just remember: the exact same Arguments you and the Russian Government make for Crimea and Eastern Ukraine can and will be utilized by China against the Russian Far East one day.

Or were you actually thinking the Chinese would share dominion over Eurasia with Russia? They're playing for all the marbles.

[Kellhound]

Crimea has always been Russian, blame Khrushchev the Ukrainian for causing this by ilegally transferring it.

Actually, no it has not. It was taken by force from the Ottomans in the late 1700s. It was Russian for only 171 years before becoming Ukrainian for 60 years.

[Z-Man]

So just remember: the exact same Arguments you and the Russian Government make for Crimea and Eastern Ukraine can and will be utilized by China against the Russian Far East one day.

The millions of Chinese settlers on the Russian side of the border will simply hold elections to secede, all nice and legal-like. Russia just doesn't really have the population to hold what it has, much less push back.

[Haven]

Few of the countries to the west of Russia want anything to do with Russia, its time to accept that.

Only through a peaceful referendum, Crimean style.

[Kellhound]

Only through a peaceful referendum, Crimean style.

No, they didnt need invading forces to "compel" them to vote to reject Russia.

[Kasierith]

If I'm understanding you right (in that you defended Crimea's illegal annexatin), then you were ardently defending a fools errand.

I would not say that I was defending the act as much as the necessity for it's annexation for procuring Russia United's global interests. I don't defend the act itself as I do not agree with those interests; in fact, I would consider the annexation and the scuttling of Ukraine to be forefront in my decision to obtain permanent residency in the US.

I believe you are drastically understating the importance of Crimea because you're looking at it from an American v Russian perspective, in which the black sea naval power is largely useless. Crimea is one of the single largest focuses in Russian military development, and has been significantly expanded in recent years. Even if you were right and at the end of the day such expansions are moot, it is obviously important to them because that is where the money is going.

Second, it was a very important part in scuttling the Ukraine. While obviously not a massive interest, it was obviously an attractive enough partner for the EU to consider financially roping it in. Ukraine offered a large working populace compared to many other European countries, a potential untapped resource that was enticing if spoiled by a horrendously degraded infrastucture and minimal internal economic stability, but had the massive bonus of Crimea if Russia could be peeled off as Ukraine became more and more economical entangled with the EU. Now what is it? No economic prospects, no Crimea, a shotgunned populist leadership who obtained power in manner that makes Western leaders more than a little uncomfortable, deeply divided factions, and no prospective future of getting any better. Russia cut off what benefitted it and made the rest largely useless, in a time where the EU would have benefitted by a large and robust working populace.

Third, Putin is ultimately all powerful because he is perceived as all powerful, and thus those who might oppose him will be trodden underfoot. The Russian president actually has quite a few checks and balances. Toe to toe, the American president has more legislated powers and freedom to operate than the Russian president. What Putin's power based is established on is that he controls those checks and balances, mostly by being the one who influences that they stay in power. If the rest of the party really wished to, they could depose him in an afternoon. His omnipotence is based purely on his perspective of being omnipotent. What we saw leading up to the annexation was a long lull in his image. Purely outside of a military perspective, the loss of Crimea to the west would have been a devastating blow to the base of his power.

[Deleted]

I hope you remember think that in the future.

This is the map of China, with territory the decaying Qing Empire transfered to Russia.



Another view.



The red is what China "used to be" and was "always Chinese"



The day will come this century, when Russia, the weaker power in Eurasia, is confronted by the mighter power, China, to repeal the last of the unequal treaties, namely the Treaty of Aigun, the Convention of Peking, and the Li-Lobanov Treaty, and reclaim its lost territories.

And considering how many "Ethnic Han" people populate the Russian Far East compared to ethnic Russians, China will likely also seek to "protect" them in the way Russia disingenuously claims to do with its populations in Eastern Europe.

So just remember: the exact same Arguments you and the Russian Government make for Crimea and Eastern Ukraine can and will be utilized by China against the Russian Far East one day.

Or were you actually thinking the Chinese would share dominion over Eurasia with Russia? They're playing for all the marbles.

Looks like someone looked at wikipedia n think he's an expert

Those "chinese" regions lost were populated by turkish n mongol peoples like the Manchu in the north-east. China didn't loose any ethnic Han territories so these "claims" of yours are a joke and China wouldn't risk nuclear war over them. Also those minorities would run a much larger risk to be assimilated by the Han so no way do they want to join China. But continue plz entertain us with ur ignorance.

[Deleted]

Those "chinese" regions lost were populated by turkish n mongol peoples like the Manchu in the north-east.

That did not stop etnical Russians from Moscow making claim on the same territory populated by turkish n mongol peoples like the Manchu.....

China wouldn't risk nuclear war over them.

If we turn the coin Russia wouldn't risk nuclear war over them.....

[The Emperor]

@Skroe Keep dreaming your sweet neocon dreams, but don't forget, Russia has WMD, and if China or anyone else so much as thinks about annexing territories, they will be turned to ash, and considering that China has relatively small landmass but high population density, fewer bombs will be needed to achieve maximum efficiency.

Also, since we have so many "experts" here that just parrot whatever b/s their MSM regurgitates into them here's something to consider - Immigration to Russia
Even if we take into consideration that the data isn't accurate, let's add some 700,000 sneaky Chinese, so that we have ~1m Chinese in Russia. 1m? It's nothing! Considering this figure would probably be spread across all country, not just in Far East, we see that the problem of "Chinese putting migrant pressure on Russia" is non-existent, but of course, for fake news like MSM everything bad that happens in Russia is truth, and everything good - it's a state sponsored propaganda.

[Haven]

As if the vague possibility of tensions between Russia and China is anywhere near the state of new cold war between West and emerging East.

[Deleted]

Russia kind of screwed the pooch in social graces when they started engaging in threatening naval manouvers to intimidate Sweden. It's kind of scary though that the ultimate decision will be based on whether or not Trump decides to respond aggressively to such strong arming based on his ego.

- - - Updated - - -



Even as someone who ardently defended the necessity for Russia to annex Crimea to maintain its military presence in Europe, I can't help but point out how silly this is. Russia's annexation of the peninsula was a calculated decision with a known cost, that cost being the blaring siren that if one was not actually in NATO word of mouth offers of protection meant nothing. You're basically expressing being miserable that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sweden co ops with a to Rus hostile mil alliance, they are hypocrites for playing innocent. Typical of west not taking responsibility of their policies. When someone has to respond to them they act all innocent.

- - - Updated - - -

That did not stop etnical Russians from Moscow making claim on the same territory populated by turkish n mongol peoples like the Manchu.....



If we turn the coin Russia wouldn't risk nuclear war over them.....

Mongolia use the cyrillic alphabet for a reason. The Russians are white but the Chinese look like those minorities n is agressive in its assimilation policies. Minorities have more rights in Russia, nobody wants to be the next xin jiang or tibet. Then there's new hardline policies against muslims by Peking.

Ur last point is so brain dead...it's like saying usa wouldn't risk nuclear with china over alaska.

[Muzjhath]

Sweden co ops with a to Rus hostile mil alliance, they are hypocrites for playing innocent. Typical of west not taking responsibility of their policies. When someone has to respond to them they act all innocent.

Sweden has a military partnership with a friendly alliance due to a history of Soviet aggression, along with a silent partnership with Finland who had a hostile neighbor looking for any excuse to either outright invade, or "invite" Finland to the Warsaw Pact.
Cold War ends. Sweden keeps close contact with NATO as it's been generally beneficial as we can that way easily sell in house developed weapons to NATO (along with to other places) as they already follow standards. We've also become part a few other military pacts within Europe that has made us a non neutral country. But these have all been mutual defense things, non aggression things.
Along about 5 years ago comes a Russia who starts poking our borders with both ships and outright flying with armed military aircraft across our airspace. Shit that could be seen as acts of war between nations with worse relations.

Then Putin and Russians are surprised when Sweden get's CLOSER to NATO?
Seriously?

It's fucking Russian bullshit that is PUSHING Sweden towards Nato. You can't come and claim that it's because we co-operate with NATO. We've done that for decades, silently and not so silently. We've had soft promises of "We'll come help you if Soviet comes" from NATO since when we didn't join during the cold war.
The Sweden and NATO relationship isn't new. The only thing that was new since the fall of the Soviet Union was that Finland wasn't under threat of invasion, so voices in Sweden could get more audible about in actuality joining NATO. Still mostly just a minority as most of the left here are historically friendlier to Russia than the US.
Along comes a few incredibly stupid moves from Russia against our territorial waters and moves towards working more with NATO get more general support and Putin and Russians are mad/angry?

Seriously. You've got only your fuckwad agressive foreign policy to blame. This is real politic. Sweden is feeling threatened by Russia. Of course we'll go seek protection.

[Masark]

Seriously. You've got only your fuckwad agressive foreign policy to blame. This is real politic. Sweden is feeling threatened by Russia. Of course we'll go seek protection.

Yeah, but Putin thinks you're supposed to seek Russian "protection".

[Deleted]

U are in bed with an anti-Russian miltary alliance n when u find there is consequences ur the victims? What a joke! Russia has to train for all scenarios possible scenarios. A scenario which wouldn't exist if u weren't being in bed with nato. Grow up n stop whining n btw u think nato doesn't do the same towards Russia?

[Ulmita]

NATO is pushing this plannet into oblivion. NATO needs to go, ASAP.

[Muzjhath]

U are in bed with an anti-Russian miltary alliance n when u find there is consequences ur the victims? What a joke! Russia has to train for all scenarios possible scenarios. A scenario which wouldn't exist if u weren't being in bed with nato. Grow up n stop whining n btw u think nato doesn't do the same towards Russia?

You want to train and prepare for all possible scenarios and you act outraged when one of those gets self-fulfilled because of your aggression? If Sweden becomes a full part of NATO (as we aren't. This thread is all about that). Russia will oprimary have their own aggressive actions towards Sweden (mostly Gotland's airspace) to blame. I'm also fairly sure that NATO doesn't fly into Russian airspace without permission. Do they patrol the borders? Of course, but they don't dive in and fly circles around military installations (which Putinistas love claiming is a thing Russia would throw out the nukes over as well).
That's the difference here. Russia has repeatedly not respected Swedish territory. Then they get mad when Sweden talks about closer ties for our defense as it's obvious that the Russian regime doesn't respect us.

Have we been on the side of NATO since it's creation? Yeah, we have. One side had Gulags and killed political dissidents at the time, and it wasn't NATO.
That doesn't give Russia any right to fucking disrespect Swedish borders and think we'll just shrug our shoulders or act alone against them.

[Haven]

Meanwhile, muslim terrorists blow themselves up and cut people in England, not to mention the shit in Syria, and NATO can't do shit about anything. But Russian boogeyman, now that's the real deal...

[Muzjhath]

Terrorism is something that military can't really deal with. If it could the US war on terror would have had a better effect than it did.
Terrorism is for intelligence agencies and law enforcement to deal with and hopefully stop.

It's horrible and really shouldn't fucking happen. But fundamentalists are a thing and they are all probably clinically insane due to brainwashing, sociopathy, or outright psychopathy. Can try to stop it but on the whole it's one of those hard to deal with problems that you have to face. Bombing their "home" has historically only made more terrorists.

Different tools for different threats. In Sweden I'm still more likely to die because a drunk driver hits me with his car than from a terrorist attack. I say that with a cousin who was a surgeon who saved lives after the Stockholm terror attack earlier this year. So I know how fucking scary it is when it happens. They are still more statistical outliers than threats you can deal with by more than better funding of counter terrorism intelligence work. Which I'm all for. I'm also more for stronger and more diligent outer borders of the EU (key, outer. Not inner). (But i'm a filthy EU federalist and "globalists" who regularly on the internet gets called a "leftist cuck" even thou I skew to the right in my own countries politics).

[Haven]

Everything takes money. Cut the financial support, no more fundamentalists. A terrorist that can't afford C4 isn't as dangerous as the one who can.