EU Army?

[Deleted]

EU turning into the Holy Roman Empire 2.0

[Deleted]

What is your thoughts on a EU army?

My thoughts on anything to do with the military are very simple; if you're not going to go take a bullet personally, then you don't get to have an opinion on who does go.

[Zephre]

Makes me wonder how they'll actually manage to fund such a thing, I imagine it'll be on a large scale to be a deterrent to Russia or whomever they've decided the bad guys are, odds are if this thing ever became reality it'd be very underfunded.

[Aggrophobic]

Huh, I can agree with that. I used to disagree with you more, what happened?

You're both getting older?

[Sharein]

No.

For the simple reason that such an army can be used against our own people.

[Allybeboba]

Who would pay for it? Are European citizens will to be taxed for it?
Remember my thread a few months ago the United State of Europe(or something like that)?

If there was to be an EU army would each country give up their own military forces or just contribute to a new one?

[Slant]

How would the EU make use of an EU army? Devolve the rights to a Minister of Defense Eurogroup? For an army to be effective it needs to be able to take decisive action and the EU is built at its core on the premise of compromise. Compromise does not come fast.

Usually countries solve this by giving one person (usually the leader of the Government) full authority over all armed forces. It is a rather absolute power and does not need any precursor agreement from anyone to set things in motion. But Parliament usually has control over budget and has mechanisms to stop a madman from abusing this power. Checks and balances and such being what they are. If the need to deploy troops is not actually urgent or a direct defensive response to an attack, usually Parliament is involved right from the start to avoid any legal hassle you may have afterwards. This is what happens when you send troops on UN missions on the other side of the globe.

This isn't such an exotic concept that you couldn't use it in Europe, too.

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Who would pay for it? Are European citizens will to be taxed for it?
Remember my thread a few months ago the United State of Europe(or something like that)?

If there was to be an EU army would each country give up their own military forces or just contribute to a new one?

The same people. If you've now paid taxes for your national army, you'll pay the same tax for a European army. And the cool bit is, you'd get more bang out of your buck, because a European defense concept would instantly save on Research and Development.

I'd think a European army would be a combined collection of each national armies, with much much more cooperation and integration into an overarching military structure. So you'd still have a Dutch army being stationed in Dutch bases, but under the new label "European Armed Forces" or something...

[dd614]

Under the control of Germany, of course. Soon Germany will subjugate much of Europe and Europe will be inhospitable for Jews due to migrant hostility. Germany is achieving Hitler's goals without firing a shot.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

EU Army?

What is your thoughts on a EU army? Apparently Jean-Claude Juncker believes the EU should expand its military strength becuase it could no longer depend on long time allies like the US and UK.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40217085

Do you think the EU should have a united Army under the control of the EU?

...That's hilarious. A lot of the talking-heads on Youtube and the likes feared the EU becoming this expansive, all-consuming monster and cited an eventual EU army as a surely coming sign of such. A force by which could keep order and law under this new regime.

Which of course, people summarily dismissed as bat-shit, conspiratard type drivel.

Now here we are. Actually having a discussion over that very matter of because at the first perceived uncertainties with the current national standings they're going to make an effort to take utter and full advantage of it.

Why am I not shocked?!

[Theinquisition]

It is exactly independence that makes us all reluctant. I personally don't know why, but I do know that pretty much everyone I know supports the idea of a strong Europe that intervenes, helps and defends, where needed.

more than likely it's people who wouldn't be willing to DO the helping, defending, and intervening.

[Serpha]

Yes please and invade UK after Brexit, kk thx

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I don't know, at your level of political ignorance you should be shocked all the time. An EU Army is something that has constantly been discussed for decades now. The only country that was completely dismissive of the idea was the UK and now they are out.

I'm talking about what I've dealt with discussing these things with other people, including many of which were citizens of EU-member nations.

They'd often come across as if the mere notion of an EU army was absolutely ridiculous and it'd never come to past. That at best, only a handful of fringe believers really thought this was a good idea and it'd not be able to gain track in mainstream discussion.

That is clearly changing and very rapidly.

But hey, please continue to insult me. Isn't that what every other intellectually needy individual who exhibits extreme insecurity issues does? Par for the course, as they say.

[Allybeboba]

Imagine this, if you will.
An EU Army is told to invade one of it's countries. Will the EU military members be loyal to the EU or their own country?

[Deleted]

The EU has just as much of a corrupt and ineffective military industrial complex, it is just spread out more so its easier to ignore.

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And all of that cooperation is built on the framework of NATO, not the EU.

Actually that has very little to do with NATO it's based on othe rbilateral and multilateral agreements.

[Deleted]

I'm talking about what I've dealt with discussing these things with other people, including many of which were citizens of EU-member nations.

They'd often come across as if the mere notion of an EU army was absolutely ridiculous and it'd never come to past. That at best, only a handful of fringe believers really thought this was a good idea and it'd not be able to gain track in mainstream discussion.

That is clearly changing and very rapidly.

But hey, please continue to insult me. Isn't that what every other intellectually needy individual who exhibits extreme insecurity issues does? Par for the course, as they say.

That's interesting, where are you from that has so many people against an EU army?

I imagine most of the talk of an EU army is mostly connected to Trumpistan's recent statements about wiping its ass with NATO's principles, rather than a desire of the EU having an invasion-ready army, ready to crush all rebellions.

If anything, I'd expect an EU army to be a civilian army, like Germany's one. If they think an order is unlawful or immoral, they can throw their superior the bird and tell them to stuff it, which is better than having an army of obedient drones.

Imagine this, if you will.
An EU Army is told to invade one of it's countries. Will the EU military members be loyal to the EU or their own country?

I tried to imagine that, honestly, but I started imagining what would lead to that situation. I'd imagine them to be loyal to their own country, as they should, but. Any situation that would lead to that being considered would involve many, many diplomatic approaches to the situation, possible exit/expulsion of the country, etc...

[Tailswipe]

The logistical and language barriers would be pretty steep. I'm also not entirely comfortable with idea of the EU parliament having the power to make military deployments.

[Deleted]

Imagine this, if you will.
An EU Army is told to invade one of it's countries. Will the EU military members be loyal to the EU or their own country?

Part of the reason they want this so much. Right now most of the countries retain their own armies and such can secure their independence to one extent or another. Having the French Army invade Italy when it is trying to seceed is fairly hard to justify and Italy would have an army of it's own to respond to such an incursion.

An EU army would effectively drain the funding away from regular nation state armies. Slowly taking their position as they federalize the EU more and more turning the countries into something akin to US states. Which means if any country would want to seceed they would have an army ready to pretty much keep them from doing so while said country would have no army of its own.

Further, an EU army would have no loyalty or affiliation with any one country. It is relatively hard to get an army to turn on the people it is recruited from as they usually have families, friends etc. If you don't start from a military dictatorship to begin with. Getting an EU army to do it would be fairly easy in comparison. Why anyone cheers this on or supports it is beyond me.


The best part in all of this. Being unafilliated with any country, people, etc. An EU army would effectively be a mercenary army. They do not fight for their nation or people but solely for their pay. Mercenary armies all throughout history have been a huge disaster. Their loyalty and morale is low. They are hard to control and they can be easily bribed if they do not outright turn onto their employers. That anyone would effectively create a modern mercenary army is pure insanity.

[Deleted]

Part of the reason they want this so much. Right now most of the countries retain their own armies and such can secure their independence to one extent or another. Having the French Army invade Italy when it is trying to seceed is fairly hard to justify and Italy would have an army of it's own to respond to such an incursion.

I'm going to go ahead and assume you're an American. Not as an insult, but as a statement that you're unaware of European politics. If Italy wants to 'secede', it will vote on it, and there'll be measures taken, in immigration, policing and funding policies. It will not be invaded by the French Army.

An EU army would effectively drain the funding away from regular nation state armies. Slowly taking their position as they federalize the EU more and more turning the countries into something akin to US states. Which means if any country would want to seceed they would have an army ready to pretty much keep them from doing so while said country would have no army of its own.

Further, an EU army would have no loyalty or affiliation with any one country. It is relatively hard to get an army to turn on the people it is recruited from as they usually have families, friends etc. If you don't start from a military dictatorship to begin with. Getting an EU army to do it would be fairly easy in comparison. Why anyone cheers this on or supports it is beyond me.

An EU army is going to be, simply put, slapping some new patches on soldier's shoulders, language lessons, using the same hardware, and an increase in cross-country training. It's not going to be rounding up the current soldiers, to be replaced by clones made in Brussels. (Although, that's an idea.)

The best part in all of this. Being unafilliated with any country, people, etc. An EU army would effectively be a mercenary army. They do not fight for their nation or people but solely for their pay. Mercenary armies all throughout history have been a huge disaster. Their loyalty and morale is low. They are hard to control and they can be easily bribed if they do not outright turn onto their employers. That anyone would effectively create a modern mercenary army is pure insanity.

It'd be affiliated to THEIR people. I am pretty sure the average Pole thinks better of the average German than the average Californian of the average Texan, and those are the countries with the most bad blood in the EU. Also, as I said, it'll most likely be a civil army, the type that disobey orders based on their morality. And as I said before, it wouldn't be a mercenary army. The Belgian regiments will still be in Belgium, the Italian will still be in Italy, and the Romanian will still be in Romania. It would just mean everyone's using Belgian rifles and pistols, German tanks and Swedish planes.

[Wikiy]

...That's hilarious. A lot of the talking-heads on Youtube and the likes feared the EU becoming this expansive, all-consuming monster and cited an eventual EU army as a surely coming sign of such. A force by which could keep order and law under this new regime.

Which of course, people summarily dismissed as bat-shit, conspiratard type drivel.

Now here we are. Actually having a discussion over that very matter of because at the first perceived uncertainties with the current national standings they're going to make an effort to take utter and full advantage of it.

Why am I not shocked?!

The whole point of the EU is to pave the way for an eventual federation. Grab a history book and read about its "founding fathers", like Robert Schuman. Or Winston Churchill. They all supported an eventual federation. And half of the European population (almost half, 45%) supported it around 10 years ago. I just wonder what the percentages are right now. The need for a EU, regardless of all its flaws, has never been so widely recognized as it is right now. I imagine that percentage is above 50% right now. We'll probably see in the next Eurobarometer survey.

As for this idea that an EU army is being created so that, I donno, European countries could be invaded... Like, wtf, how devoid of logic can you be?

1. We're living in the 21st century, and democracies don't become regimes that do fascistoid things just like that.
2. The EU wouldn't invade an unwilling country, they'd just let them leave and fade away into historical oblivion.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

The whole point of the EU is to pave the way for an eventual federation. Grab a history book and read about its "founding fathers", like Robert Schuman. Or Winston Churchill. They all supported an eventual federation. And half of the European population (almost half, 45%) supported it around 10 years ago. I just wonder what the percentages are right now. The need for a EU, regardless of all its flaws, has never been so widely recognized as it is right now. I imagine that percentage is above 50% right now. We'll probably see in the next Eurobarometer survey.

As for this idea that an EU army is being created so that, I donno, European countries could be invaded... Like, wtf, how devoid of logic can you be?

1. We're living in the 21st century, and democracies don't become regimes that do fascistoid things just like that.
2. The EU wouldn't invade an unwilling country, they'd just let them leave and fade away into historical oblivion.

Maybe but I keep getting the vibe that this is a bunch of pseudo-utopian nonsense that will eventually bite everyone in the ass.

I for one tend to err on the side of, "Humans are humans. Bad shit will happen." Hence why I like them as divided and powerless as possible. I simply have zero faith in humanity.