Do we need yet another stat squish?

[lightofdawn]

i figure after one more squish it would be more beneficial to just have less of an exponential gain in power. because at the rate we're going armor from vanilla/bc/wrath will all have the exact same stat values and leveling up for new players will feel SUPER odd (even more so than it already does, i mean)

[Teri]

Nice hyperbole. Tell me... this affects you how? How is making leveling easier a bad thing? All i see is you showing entitlement. Who cares if its easier? The game is at max level. Leveling is just a barrier to get there. The faster it goes by, the better.

As for starting at 100, it alreasy exists. The level boost. Everyone gets one free with every expansion.

I mean seriously how does this affect you? You are saying you want leveling to be more time consuming? It is so selfish and outrageous. You don't get to throw your preconceptions on new players. Having new players is good for the game. You want to eliminate barriers, not keeping them in.
And btw Blizzard has ALWAYS ever since the second expansion nerfed old content to lower these barriers. The will to keep them in is completely illogical.

Oh I don't care one bit now, since it already happened, blizz won't change anything unless they do a 1-110 squish revamp.

But don't say nothing changed when it clearly was not a linear or % based proper squish.

I don't want to nerf or limit new players at all, but the feel of the game , and power gains is completely gone for at least 1-85 due to they way they messed up the scaling.

It's fine to give players relative more power, but why do level 60s have over 50% more stats/damage after a squish which is supposed to reduce things, meanwhile the enemies have half or less hp so basicly that's over a 100% damage INCREASE, not a decrease.

[gcsmith]

blizzard said they're doing another squish in the next xpac after (Legion) during blizzcon 2016 iirc

Right now you do like rediculous times more damage at end of expansion than you do at beginning. Lets put this in perspective, from t4-t6 in TBC you went up about 20ilevel, you do that in almost 1 tier now.

[potis]

I wasn't really comparing them. That poster just said "we haven't seen 2x since BC" and I was pointing out that it was more than 2x. But yeah, we'll definitly be doing vastly more dps than just 10x what a fresh 110 does. Even if they use most catch up mechanics and get to 875ish ilvl (doesn't take much effort). They'll be doing at most 400k-500k depending on the class, without those a fresh 110 might do 200k dps. I imagine we'll pushing 3-4 million single target dps by the end of the expansion. I wouldn't be surprised if we go as high as bursting 10 million and getting closer to that on shorter fights.

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The scaling in Cata was actually probably some of the least extreme scaling. You started the xpac doing roughly 20-25k in the first tier of raiding and ended doing at most 40k.

You are doing the mistake of "numbers" instead of ilvl, Cataclysm fucked the ilvls, hence the numbers more than any expansion before, or well ICC started it, Cataclysm didnt help, and finished it off.

[Deleted]

This shit scaling started in Cata where the quests instantly provided max item level of previous expansion gear for no reason at all and will remain as long as they keep providing difficulties for everyone.

The reason Vanilla/TBC scaled so little was because the item levels were mixed.

End bosses, or generally last 2 bosses of the previous raid, dropped item level items higher item level that half the next instance, making the scaling different.

Vanilla went from 61 ilvl resistance random epics, with 66 on set and 70 on weapons in the first raid to 89 weapons off the last boss in Vanilla, aka Kel Thuzad.

Barely 20 ilvls for the whole Vanilla, TBC was around the same scaling.

It all changed when difficulties appeared and the scaling changed massively, then they fucked it up with Cataclysm quest items.

The problem with ilvl being so close is that a) it allows little wiggle room for more difficulties and b) it makes new gear feel underwhelming, you could get a total new set of gear and your ilvl go up maybe 2 or 3 levels giving maybe a 1 or 2 % increase in dps. Yay. Also c) with ilvl that close you can be same sure running the previous tiers will be mandatory to get a better itemized weapon/trinket/what

As for a squish, I really don't care that much in the long run but the squish itself is a little disconcerting so if prefer if Blizzard just stuck to the status quo unless there is some fundamental mechanical reason it has to change.

The 'I don't like looking at big numbers' argument always strict me as flirting with the line between stupid and bizarre.

[potis]

The problem with ilvl being so close is that a) it allows little wiggle room for more difficulties and b) it makes new gear feel underwhelming, you could get a total new set of gear and your ilvl go up maybe 2 or 3 levels giving maybe a 1 or 2 % increase in dps. Yay. Also c) with ilvl that close you can be same sure running the previous tiers will be mandatory to get a better itemized weapon/trinket/what

As for a squish, I really don't care that much in the long run but the squish itself is a little disconcerting so if prefer if Blizzard just stuck to the status quo unless there is some fundamental mechanical reason it has to change.

The 'I don't like looking at big numbers' argument always strict me as flirting with the line between stupid and bizarre.

Different game.

Those numbers were of an RPG, WoW has been for a few years now a ARPG, more action, bigger numbers, less RPG.

There is nothing wrong with todays numbers, they just get a bit stupid after awhile hence why a stat squish is welcome.

[Deleted]

I think we do.

The damage and health numbers are getting out of hand, again.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I wasn't really comparing them. That poster just said "we haven't seen 2x since BC" and I was pointing out that it was more than 2x. But yeah, we'll definitly be doing vastly more dps than just 10x what a fresh 110 does. Even if they use most catch up mechanics and get to 875ish ilvl (doesn't take much effort). They'll be doing at most 400k-500k depending on the class, without those a fresh 110 might do 200k dps. I imagine we'll pushing 3-4 million single target dps by the end of the expansion. I wouldn't be surprised if we go as high as bursting 10 million and getting closer to that on shorter fights.

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The scaling in Cata was actually probably some of the least extreme scaling. You started the xpac doing roughly 20-25k in the first tier of raiding and ended doing at most 40k.

This is wrong though. You started doing 10-15kish in questgear , 25k was with full t11 HC gear. And ppl with full DS HC gear were doing 50-55k. If you never topped 40k, you must have been autoattacking most of the time.

Same with whoever said that you started at 200 Dps in TBC. I played TBC on a Blizzlike server two years ago, and I clearly remember pushing 7-800 Dps constantly in 5mans, before ever stepping foot into Kara. 200 Dps in TBC is autoattack lvl, no matter what gear you have. Once I got some Kara gear (the gun especially) and managed to get into a group with good buffs in a raid, I easily pushed 1,2k consistenly in raidfights. That's still before ever stepping foot into Gruul (OP trinket) or any t5 content, let alone BT or Sunwell.

Garrosh probably isn't a great fight to use for comparison. Weren't people pushing like a million dps in MoP before the stat squish?

Nobody came close to that on sustained fights. Some Affliction Warlocks were able to push some insane numbers when the killtimes were short enough, because of the completely broken combination of the SoO Int proc trinkets, Soulswap, snapshotting and Warlocks in general being overtuned as fuck. Locks were doing 2.5M Dps on Protectors (3-4 target multidotting), but that's not a good representation of the rest of the classes. Most ppl bursted in the millions yes, but on singletarget fights, the top ranks at the end of the expansion were at like 600k. This was still inflated by killtimes though, actual sustained Dps probably peaked at like 450k Dps.

[Boricha]

Yeah, I'll always be in favor of the stat squish. I like the feeling of it more.

[Segus1992]

Blizzard would never agree with me but I believe we need to get rid of the exponential power gains we have right now. Doing 1.5-2 times more damage at the end of an expansion compared to the beginning more than suffices IMO!

But yeah, that won't happen. We'll most likely see a squish every two expansions...

Always been this way, and always will be. And for good reason, out of both a player's perspective and a developer's perspective. Power increases during the expansion is necessary, power increases between expansions are necessary, power increases in old expansions is not necessary. Squishes are, as such, the best way to solve the problem. If they squish every expansion it'll just be "oh this again" - I feel like every other expansion is a good way to do it.

[alturic]

Didn't they say they were planning a major overhaul, which was band-aided by the first stat squish since it required a lot of work?

[Segus1992]

This is wrong though. You started doing 10-15kish in questgear , 25k was with full t11 HC gear. And ppl with full DS HC gear were doing 50-55k. If you never topped 40k, you must have been autoattacking most of the time.

Same with whoever said that you started at 200 Dps in TBC. I played TBC on a Blizzlike server two years ago, and I clearly remember pushing 7-800 Dps constantly in 5mans, before ever stepping foot into Kara. 200 Dps in TBC is autoattack lvl, no matter what gear you have. Once I got some Kara gear (the gun especially) and managed to get into a group with good buffs in a raid, I easily pushed 1,2k consistenly in raidfights. That's still before ever stepping foot into Gruul (OP trinket) or any t5 content, let alone BT or Sunwell.

TBC servers almost always have the talents that came later. Initially you may have done 200 DPS, but you wouldn't do that with the later upgrades.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

It's kind of a guilty pleasure, but I do enjoy when the numbers go back to something more moderate. Sometime I wish we'd ever get back to TBC numbers, but I don't think it's ever going to happen. But yeah, right now the numbers are ridiculous.

[Raugnaut]

I dont remember going from 5-6k hp hp to 60k hp at the end of TBC, do you? Because thats what happens now (started at 400k and we are now at 4 mil). At the end of argus we will probably have some 5-6mil HP. If we got "only" double numbers every expac we would be around 160k or something (without any numbers´squish on the way). So no, thats has "literally" NOT happened since vanilla. But if you dont know this no wonder you have no clue what he is on about.

Reverting numbers to vanilla across the board would be okay. Implementation of reasonable ilvl scaling (for example double numbers from the beginning of expac to the end) would solve the problem for atleast 10 years. We would hit millions probably in 7th expansion from the one that its implemented.

Erm, we went from 3-4k HP from Vanilla, to 16-20k in late BC. While not a 10x increase, its still a sizable increase.

Imo, there is nothing wrong with big numbers. If you seriously want to go back to small numbers, you should move to a new MMO, as WoW is far too old for big numbers without making 1-100 only give a 1% increase each level.

[Deleted]

Oh I don't care one bit now, since it already happened, blizz won't change anything unless they do a 1-110 squish revamp.

But don't say nothing changed when it clearly was not a linear or % based proper squish.

I don't want to nerf or limit new players at all, but the feel of the game , and power gains is completely gone for at least 1-85 due to they way they messed up the scaling.

It's fine to give players relative more power, but why do level 60s have over 50% more stats/damage after a squish which is supposed to reduce things, meanwhile the enemies have half or less hp so basicly that's over a 100% damage INCREASE, not a decrease.

Again, i don't see a problem with low level content beeing easier. If anyting it's a good thing. The game is at max level.

Oh well... guess we will have to disagree on this one.

[cuafpr]

I personally don't like stat squishes; it kills the sense of progression IMO (particularly when leveling new characters; assuming you don't use heirlooms, gear becomes pointless when you only replace it once every 30 levels since they stats got squished so much). I don't have an issue with the larger numbers; I like seeing the power growth over time; it is an RPG after all.

this, same for me i'm against squishes just find a better way to display the numbers or something if its an issue.

[Segus1992]

Erm, we went from 3-4k HP from Vanilla, to 16-20k in late BC. While not a 10x increase, its still a sizable increase.

Imo, there is nothing wrong with big numbers. If you seriously want to go back to small numbers, you should move to a new MMO, as WoW is far too old for big numbers without making 1-100 only give a 1% increase each level.

It's not really that far from that now, and another squish will most likely come, though it's unclear whether that squish will further squish the pre-100 content or just squish WoD and Legion.

[alturic]

this, same for me i'm against squishes just find a better way to display the numbers or something if its an issue.

What don't you like about it? What's the difference between 1,000,000 vs 1,000? Sure since you've played a previous expansion where the numbers were 1,000,000 and the next expansion they are 1,000 I can see the headfuck, but if everything is relative... it's just numbers.

[Segus1992]

Again, i don't see a problem with low level content beeing easier. If anyting it's a good thing. The game is at max level.

Oh well... guess we will have to disagree on this one.

Low level content is pretty unimportant, but low level content being easier is never a good thing. Keep the challenge where it should be.

[alturic]

Low level content is pretty unimportant, but low level content being easier is never a good thing. Keep the challenge where it should be.

This doesn't make sense? "Low-level content being easier is never a good thing. Keep the challenge where it should be." The challenge is end-game. Your comment makes it sound like it's while leveling?