Guardian got gutted

[Cheekydruid]

Well it was fun whilst it lasted, talk about over reacting.

Guardian
Healing from Frenzied Regeneration and Skysec's Hold is no longer increased by Mastery: Nature's Guardian.
Galactic Guardian’s proc rate reduced by 30%.
Gore is now also activated by Maul.
Ironfur now increases armor by 65% (was 80%).
Maul damage increased by 650%, cost increased to 45 Rage (was 20). Maul is now on the global cooldown, and has no self-cooldown (was 3 seconds). Maul damage not increased in PvP.
Mark of Ursol removed.
Rage generated per melee swing reduced by 14%.

[narendal94]

Well, we were OP as heck. Now we're middle of the pack.

[gushDH]

Bears will still be the top tank, just not by a mile, so doesn't matter.

[Cheekydruid]

Yes something needed to happen to Mark of Ursol...... so they completely removed it... ok i can deal with that, i agree it needed to happen.

but no reason to touch Frenzied Regeneration
no reason to touch Galactic Guardian’s proc rate
another hit to iron fur...
AND!
overall rage re gen reduced...

its not like "hey i think you guys went a little too far".... its just a total rape train...

[Deleted]

Yes something needed to happen to Mark of Ursol...... so they completely removed it... ok i can deal with that, i agree it needed to happen.

but no reason to touch Frenzied Regeneration
no reason to touch Galactic Guardian’s proc rate
another hit to iron fur...
AND!
overall rage re gen reduced...

its not like "hey i think you guys went a little too far".... its just a total rape train...

They were completely unstoppable.

[Deleted]

Poor little bears will have to avoid some damage like everyone else, that's so sad.
I mean hey, that's not like you still had a fuckload of cd, powerful heal and mobility right ?

[Meteox]

The changes to Ironfur has been foreseen because it happened before Nighthold if my memory served me right. Reason being is once the new tier hits, the armor you'll get will increase and thus the amount of armor you'll get from Ironfur will increase. The removal of MoU is sad but it has been discussed long time ago.

However; the interaction between mastery and FR removal is...a lot, in my opinion.

[Kraineth]

Frenzied Regen was double dipping with mastery
Iron Fur scales out of control with higher item levels giving you more base armor
Rage gen means very little when you aren't juggling IF and MoU, they likely wanted to reduce the frequency of 2-3 ironfur stacks

Even with all these nerfs, bear is still shaping up as a strong tank in Tomb, and that just shows you how OP they were.

[Vakna]

Have you actually played the PTR? We're still top tier on a lot of the ToS bosses, not gutted at all. Given how much physical damage some of the later bosses dump into the tanks, especially KJ, bears are still going to be a popular choice (at least in the early weeks of progression before you outgear it) just because of our sheer melee mitigation potential combined with the insane self-sustain of the t20 set.

The only change that has any meaning at all for raiding bears is the removal of MoU, meaning we can't comfortably facetank literally every boss in the game, now we have a weakness (though not much of one, really, we still have adaptive fur, tons of cd's and massive self healing with t20).

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Have you actually played the PTR? We're still top tier on a lot of the ToS bosses, not gutted at all. Given how much physical damage some of the later bosses dump into the tanks, especially KJ, bears are still going to be a popular choice (at least in the early weeks of progression before you outgear it) just because of our sheer melee mitigation potential combined with the insane self-sustain of the t20 set.

The only change that has any meaning at all for raiding bears is the removal of MoU, meaning we can't comfortably facetank literally every boss in the game, now we have a weakness (though not much of one, really, we still have adaptive fur, tons of cd's and massive self healing with t20).

This so much. They just went from insanely top tank to just top tank.

[Ravingmad]

I miss the Cataclysm Bear.... of course it was OP as f*** but the gameplay at that time, you felt like you were a DPS class and it felt good. Now the bear feels slow... and I lost interest at Legion, being my main Alt. IMO any new tank druid will be having a hard time with all these nerf. At high ilvl a bear is unstoppable, so the nerf applies well, but I find sad to always see reactive action from Blizzard (we try this, nerf is later) instead of proactive (already balancing it for higher content).

Now I know I can completely remove Maul (45 rage) from my action bar, unless I solo/farm stuff.

[Deleted]

Rage generation nerf: Doesn't matter because you lost half of your defensive rage spenders anyway.

IF Nerf: You can hit armor cap easily right now, so with increasing base armor in ToS what do you think will happen? Is it a good thing if we armor cap at 2 stacks of IF? I think not.

FR/Skysec scaling: That was mentioned ages ago and supposedly fixed already. I was always under the assumption this was how it worked already. It doesn't matter one bit because if you are doing something were it might matter, your FR is overhealing by 30-40% anyway.

Maul change: This is a positive, especially since there is almost no value in catweaving anymore, so outside of Incarn you have swipes you can replace with Mauls to do more ST damage.

GG nerf: This is actually kinda sad because this will make sure that Inc will stay the dominant talent for ToS and this "Thrash is love; Thrash is live" way of playing is starting to annoy the fuck out of me. I hoped we could go back to playing something different but yeah, no dice.

- - - Updated - - -

I miss the Cataclysm Bear.... of course it was OP as f*** but the gameplay at that time, you felt like you were a DPS class and it felt good. Now the bear feels slow... and I lost interest at Legion, being my main Alt. IMO any new tank druid will be having a hard time with all these nerf. At high ilvl a bear is unstoppable, so the nerf applies well, but I find sad to always see reactive action from Blizzard (we try this, nerf is later) instead of proactive (already balancing it for higher content).

Now I know I can completely remove Maul (45 rage) from my action bar, unless I solo/farm stuff.

There are quite a few bosses (raid and dungeon) that deal no physical damage. What are you planning to spend your rage on on these bosses?

[ONCHEhap]

Come on,you're still top tanks with a wide margin after those nerfs,you'll be fine

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

This has been known for 2 months. Are you just coming to this infornation?

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Most nerfs are deserved, honestly. But the GG thing I don't understand. And I don't agree with MOU removal. Changing it to a DH equivalent would've been better.

For the people saying we'll still be top tanks. We won't.

Most people are looking towards Blood DK and Paladins right now. Brewmaster is a maybe depending on how much the playstyle changes.

[Sparklelord]

Most nerfs are deserved, honestly. But the GG thing I don't understand. And I don't agree with MOU removal. Changing it to a DH equivalent would've been better.

For the people saying we'll still be top tanks. We won't.

Most people are looking towards Blood DK and Paladins right now. Brewmaster is a maybe depending on how much the playstyle changes.

Those Veng buffs though >.>

[Nevcairiel]

Tanks relying on as much self-healing as Blood DKs are always a bit on the wonky side. Personally I don't see them being in a top spot for long.

Most people making up these rankings just think like most people opening these threads: Hey guardian got nerfed, certainly they are the worst now - well, thats obviously not true, Guardian was just way too strong, and for once Blizzard didn't entirely over-nerf like they tend to do sometimes.

Guardian will be fine, still among the top tanks, maybe not the absolute top, or maybe that will actually change depending on fight, like it ought to.

[Deleted]

Maybe you should relook the bonus of the set.. it's normal to nerf FR, we can use it 2-3 time more often. For the rest is still normal to be nerfed expect the nerf of GG.
We still stay on top 3 but now we need to use defensive trinkets and stop using dps trinkets.

[Deleted]

We will not be using FR 2 to 3 times more often, the best case scenario would be that we will be using it on 60% of the CD, which would be 10/6 = 1.6666666 times as often. I would guess that the set will give as maybe 50% more uses during hard progress fights.

Considering trinkets: This is actually the first raid in Legion where I see potential in the defensive trinket options. Let's hope they will not be tuned to be shit like the ones in EN.

[Ayegon]

Well...feelsbadman.