Which side is worse.

[Thetruth1400]

The Lich King isn't affiliated to a faction...

Not just that, but if you really want to get into it, it wasn't Arthas that was the issue, but the spirit of Ner'zhul, a Horde orc who was running the show. Arthas was just a vessel.

That aside, Horde is clearly the evil of the two factions. There's just way too much throughout history, let alone recent history that they have done.

[Mehrunes]

When you sum up Alliance characters who did bad things IN THE NAME OF THE ALLIANCE, you get, what, Garithos? Blackmoore? Oh no, a couple of scary racists.

When you sum up Horde characters who did bad things IN THE NAME OF THE HORDE, you get a group of mass-murdering, enslaving, torturing, amoral monsters who plague cities, rape forests, kidnap and torture the living for experiments, steal the power of the Light, are literal cannibals, and nuked a city ruled by the one person in the Alliance who was making a concerted effort to make peace. I could go on. I mean Horde players even advocate genocide against Gnomes offhandedly like a joke.

I like it how you list enslavement for the Horde (when they didn't actually partake in it all that much), yet shrug Blackmoore, who was in charge of the enslavement of all Orcs captured after the Second War as merely a racist. Also how does one rape trees? Or how does one steal the power of the Light when the only thing required to use Light in Warcraft universe is strong willpower? Mass-murdering and torture happen on both sides. And Theramore was making such a concerted effort to make peace that Jaina's forces attacked Crossroads before Garrosh invaded Ashenvale and after war broke out fully, they were leading the Alliance offensive in Kalimdor. Speaking of Gnomes, genocides and nukes, they did nuke their own city. And while Mekkatorque was tricked, Thermaplugg knew full well what would happen.

[Deleted]

Objectively I'd probably say Horde are worse, however part of me still thinks of the Horde as being the good guys in some sense. The horde is a warrior society where war is considered more of a part of life, so although they've probably on balance done more bad stuff, conflict is their way of life and honour is held in high regard. The alliance are just xenophobic pricks.

It's a bit like how we've romanticised the Vikings, Spartans and Samurai culture in history. Objectively they've done some pretty messed up stuff but it's more of a sense that they had hard lives and lived in a harsh time than being inherently evil in motive.

[Mehrunes]

But you know what... If the orcs were indeed apoligetic... "sorry we tried to conquer your world, we were driven as such because of the demons of the legion. We want to stay here and live along side everyone... if you can spare a few resources so we can survive and thrive, we will try to be a part of this world."

Yeah, they instead merely fled to another continent entirely to start being a part of this world on their own, undisturbed by the Alliance, without the Alliance even needing to help them out. So much worse. Somehow.

But no.... again and again they betray this trust.

You mean when they defended themselves from Proudmoore after he stick to Orcs like dog shit to a shoe despite the Orcs wanting to get away from the humans so that both races could leave in peace? Or when Varian tried to capture Undercity (because it "belongs to Alliance", even though it's not how alliances work) and declared war on the Horde, despite already knowing from Jaina that the Wrathgate wasn't Horde's doing? Or when Night Elves then broke trade treaty that the peace between the factions rested on, also over Wrathgate, also having the knowledge it was the rebels' doing and with a huge-ass delay from the actual event? Or when Northwatch attacked Crossroads prior to Garrosh resuming hostilities and invading Ashenvale? Or when Genn started a conflict with the Forsaken and the new Warchief over his confirmation bias in the middle of a Legion invasion?

Now we have people who have read the books and see that "due to assholery of this and that important alliance figure... the horde was not able to collect resources".
Oh right... so when you are a guest on a planet... that you earlier wanted to conquer .... when you do not get your way with the host and take things by force? You do not appeal your case to Stormwind? Perhaps teleport over under a white flag? No... lets do the petty thing and start a war...
The horde just has no fucking respect for the chance they were give to live on a planet such as Azeroth.

Which war did the Horde start over resources, while ignoring diplomacy and after they already settled down after the invasion? And why should they appeal their case in Stormwind? Did they try to collect their resources in Stormwind? No. Is Stormwind the owner of the entire planet for the Orcs to appeal to Stormwind over not-Stormwind's resources? No.

How would everyone feel if some alien race came to Earth and tried to conquer it and wipe every human off the face of it? Well.. lets say we forgive them because we feel sorry or we cannot fully get rid of them. Anyway... we let them stay on our planet. Suddenly they start a war due to not willing to talk to the right person for the job they want done? "we got no resources this month... lets go and exterminate every human" -- think that we as a human race think twice about doing genocide this time?

I dunno. Let's ask Trolls that question. Humans did the same thing to them.

Arthas and the culling of stratholme comes to mind...

I'm not 100% sure about this but wasnt the horde formed after the orcs arrived on azeroth. If this is the case then what happend on draenor isnt horde related. Orcs however did cause all of the. But the horde wasnt formed and did not have a hand in that.

Ehh, bad example. Stratholme was a good decision. And while in the end it didn't prevent the Scourge from destroying Lordaeron, not culling it would allow the Scourge to spill out earlier. Sure, Arthas was a prideful and butthurt twat about the whole thing, particularly over Uther not kissing his ass and Mal'ganis' taunts (the latter leading to Arthas' wild goose chase and his eventual downfall), but still. A better example would be the purge of the capital city since at that moment Arthas was technically a king of an Alliance nation. Afterwards he withdrew the Alliance from Lordaeron though, so later events don't really count. And even said purge was on behest of the Scourge and shouldn't really count for the same reason Gul'dan's actions at behest of the Legion shouldn't.

[slanik]

The humans arn't an alien race that came to the planet... And the Elfs of Quel'Thalas started the troll wars and asked the humans for help teaching them magic in return.

[Mehrunes]

Wut... I don't even.... What???
So... the alliance is bad because of Arthas who slaughtered his OWN people because they were sick/uncurable? There was/is no cure as you can see with Crusader Bridenbrad. So... yeah... rather have ravenous undead running around killing perhaps even more people. I am not saying the act itself was GOOD. But it certainly was for the greater good.

Bridenbrad is bad example. That was a perfected strain of Plague. Kinda the reason why it could affect a Paladin. The Plague from WotLK pre-event was curable. Who knows, maybe the even earlier strain in Stratholme could have been cured as well. But given how the Cult of the Damned acted in secrecy, it was too late for that.

Gul'dan had the Orc's support and were in favour of his plan. They were tools perhaps, but they supported him. Blackmoore was a slaver and was under illegal operation. He isn't the Alliance. He is an Alliance-born rebel, and therefore, not legitimate. Othmar is however legitimate.. But his atrocities do not carry the weight to say the Horde is better.

Yeah, no. He led the system as it was set up by the Alliance. The entertainment he offered to Arthas, the crown prince of the leading country of the Alliance, when he visited Durnholde to check up on it, was slave fights. You'd think he'd reconsider if he was a rebel mastermind.

[gerlach1025]

The Horde has Green Jesus, so they can't be that bad. The alliance on the other hand does stuff like driving the High Elves to join the Horde due the racism and xenophobia.

[tikcol]

I'm sorry but what do you mean by WORSE

[Deathquoi]

I play pretty much exclusively Alliance, I have one level 10 Belfadin, but I truthfully think the faction war is kind of frustrating at this point. I feel like the goals of the Alliance and Horde are aligned more often than not and with the downfall of Garrosh there's really no reason to be fighting with each other. I know they gave Sylvanas a little comic book villain subplot but it's kind of frustrating having to fight Horde. I think Blizzard's writing is generally good but the whole Gilneas/Undercity battle storyline is kind of annoying. I want to kill demons.

Occasionally as a player Blizzard makes me do things that are just kind of dumb. Losing the Skyfire in Stormheim just seemed to me like a wasteful thing, and the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas seems stupid too. Also dumb: making me as a Death Knight attack the Silver Hand. Whyyyyy???

[Jademist]

Worse by what metric? Economic? Ethics and Morality? Army size?

[Mehrunes]

So you hand wave all the shit done by the horde and blame just a few orcs for it. Then proceed to blame the whole alliance for the shit done by a few humans?

You win at the game of double standards. Also love how you literally mention Teretha (who was a good human) but focus on Blackmoore.

But @Zethras didn't handwave #2 because it was only just a few Orcs. They handwaved it because it was the act of the Legion and their pawn. And handwaving #1 as an action of the few is valid. At that point in time Ner'zhul didn't give a shit about anyone but himself. He didn't open the portals for the Horde or in Horde's name. He did it for himself, after abandoning the Horde to their fate. Whereas Blackmoore was only one piece in the system set up by the Alliance and he didn't exactly run the internment camps alone. And Garithos was the leader of what remained of the Alliance at the time, his actions representing all who did not oppose him.

Arthas isn't really part of the Alliance, he is technically a rebel, he went against his friends and his people. And if you want to get really technical, he was slowly being driven insane by Ner'zhul's Soul.

Arthas was a leader. And as Rise of the Lich King said, he had clarity of mind the entire time.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Morally, the Alliance is significantly worst.
Philosophically, both are roughly equal.
Players attracted to the faction, the Alliance is significantly, unquestionably, disgustingly worst.
Races available for players, the Alliance is worst. Trade dwarves for blood elves, and the Horde would be the ultimate champion in this category.

So yeah, fuck the Alliance and especially the people who play it. They're the most obnoxious people in the game, by a huuuuuuge majority.

[Mehrunes]

Arthas abandoned the Alliance when he slaughtered his father. No alliance race or even a faction within alliance supported him.

He did that only afterwards.

Garrosh got FULL SUPPORT of all racial leaders till assassinate of Voijin. Including theramore bombing. All of them stud beside him and not even NOT EVEN one dared to abandon him. Not even hypocritical taurens.

See the difference?

Oh noes, the Horde destroyed an enemy outpost and their main staging ground for hostile operations into Horde's heartland, in a war the Alliance started. So evul.

[Alvito]

Wrong, the Draenei are probably the noblest race on Azeroth

Tell that to the broken and others they sacrificed in their wake. Hell they doomed Dreanor and Azeroth putting themselves above all others.

[Deleted]

The Orcs destroyed their own Homeland... And came to Azeroth to invade and make the races there FUEL for their portal? That isn't a bad thing? And don't get me started on Garrosh Hellscream...

The Orcs didn't do that willingly, they were deceived and corrupted. It's the Draenei's fault the Orcs got corrupted and deceived in the first place, and by who? One of their own, Kil'jaeden. So Draenei are to blame for all of that, so Alliance wins in my opinion. All other conflicts are a direct or indirect result of this mess. And let's not start with how many times the Night Elves f*cked up the world.

[ComputerNerd]

Neither faction is innocent.
It is impossible to quantitatively assign values as to how "bad" an action by one was compared to the others.
You can't score them.

So it becomes an entirely subjective opinion.

[Aliven]

The Orcs didn't do that willingly, they were deceived and corrupted. It's the Draenei's fault the Orcs got corrupted and deceived in the first place, and by who? One of their own, Kil'jaeden. So Draenei are to blame for all of that, so Alliance wins in my opinion. All other conflicts are a direct or indirect result of this mess. And let's not start with how many times the Night Elves f*cked up the world.

Do you also blame girl for being raped because she showed up belly? Or maybe because she chose wrong path to home?

- - - Updated - - -

He did that only afterwards.




Oh noes, the Horde destroyed an enemy outpost and their main staging ground for hostile operations into Horde's heartland, in a war the Alliance started. So evul.

Well i just wanted to show that Garrosh, till assassinating voijin got full support of the horde, and after that he got full support TILL siege of orgrimmar events.

Hell, even the horde civil war was not because Garrosh was hitler but because he started attacking hiw own people (trolls). They may despised him but they followed him with everything he do.

[McFuu]

A lot of people are counting OG Horde, which was a tool of the Legion. The only real Horde we have is the new Horde, which operates under their own control. That being said, parts of the new Horde are responsible for way more shit than Alliance.
Wrath: the Wrathgate and Putress + Varimathras (before we get off on Var being Legion, Sylvannas trusted him so his access is Horde fault.)
Cata: Sylvanas less than stellar attacks on Gilneas, use of scourge. Forsaken rapid expansion, Rise of Garrosh, Garrosh expansion on Kalimdor with Orcs.
Panda: Siege of Orgrimmar.... Does Garrosh really need to be explained here, not to mention all the Korkron that went along with him.
Dreanor: Gar again, giving rise to the Iron Horde (Iron Horde are their own identity, but these events were started by the Horde)
Legion: We Horde have been rather tame this expansion

[Mehrunes]

Well i just wanted to show that Garrosh, till assassinating voijin got full support of the horde, and after that he got full support TILL siege of orgrimmar events.

Hell, even the horde civil war was not because Garrosh was hitler but because he started attacking hiw own people (trolls). They may despised him but they followed him with everything he do.

The Horde started conspiring against Garrosh in Tides of War. Cairne challenged Garrosh because he believed his direction to be wrong (admittedly, he did that over something Garrosh didn't actually do and just jumped to conclusions like a retard) before Cata. Lor'themar tried to leave in 5.1 and started to prepare for the eventuality of a rebellion in 5.2. Thrall and the players did the first act of rebellion in 5.1 when they freed Echo Isles. Sylvanas sat on her laurels after 4.0 and only sent some token force for more important campaigns afterwards.

And while Garrosh changed his goals from beating the Alliance to submission to wanting to wipe them out in Tides of War, his actions didn't change much. Until he got his hands on the Sha and the heart of Y'Shaarj, he mostly continued to wage a conventional war. There were incidents like Magnataur or Molten Giants, but it's not like either side cared much about these. Him starting to round up dissenting Darkspears in cages to be exterminated them is when he truly started to act like Hitler.

[omeomorfismo]

alliance have draenei, they alone, in their exodus, destroyed more worlds and civilizations than all other races combined.
no game...