[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Slippykins]

Welp looks like the changes going in on Tuesday are up and we got nothing.

We don't need anything.

[Kyanion]

We don't need anything.

K we'll just agree to disagree here.

[huth]

We don't need anything.

Well, if our Hatchling would learn and imitate us that would be splendid. But other than that...

[thedeisel]

We don't need anything.

K we'll just agree to disagree here.

Really just depends on your raid comp. It's pretty clear that the design intent is for us to be bottom 3-4 specs single target but strengths elsewhere. So, if you have a heavy cleave group, you're just not going to perform that well. Mediumish duration targets will just die too quickly for you to get really cooking. If you don't have a really heavy cleave group or your raid group is well organized about dividing up dps assignments to maximize efficiency, you'll probably do very strong dps overall.

The real issue, as it's been for all of legion, is we don't have any way to choose—even at very high opportunity cost—to meaningfully specialize in single target damage. Nature's Balance is just such a weaker improvement on single target compared to what stellar drift buys for multi-target damage. Moonkin has yet to perform within 5% of mean and median single taret dps this expansion, even above the 95th percentile. There's no evidence to suggest that will change going into ToS.

But overall, it seems there's no real reason to expect ToS to play out significantly differently than NH. We'll be overall a middle pack spec with notable weakness in single target and notable strength in sustained multi-target when those multiple targets are in starfall range.

[Kyanion]

Really just depends on your raid comp. It's pretty clear that the design intent is for us to be bottom 3-4 specs single target but strengths elsewhere. So, if you have a heavy cleave group, you're just not going to perform that well. Mediumish duration targets will just die too quickly for you to get really cooking. If you don't have a really heavy cleave group or your raid group is well organized about dividing up dps assignments to maximize efficiency, you'll probably do very strong dps overall.

The real issue, as it's been for all of legion, is we don't have any way to choose—even at very high opportunity cost—to meaningfully specialize in single target damage. Nature's Balance is just such a weaker improvement on single target compared to what stellar drift buys for multi-target damage. Moonkin has yet to perform within 5% of mean and median single taret dps this expansion, even above the 95th percentile. There's no evidence to suggest that will change going into ToS.

But overall, it seems there's no real reason to expect ToS to play out significantly differently than NH. We'll be overall a middle pack spec with notable weakness in single target and notable strength in sustained multi-target when those multiple targets are in starfall range.

I'm not worried about how I perform as an individual in my raid. I'm more interested in how we do overall in raids and previous parses have shown we don't do that well. I would love the ability to specialize more in ST without gutting myself in AoE but nothing changed talent wise for us. We still have plenty of dead talents or vastly inferior options on our talent rows.

But it seems like you said we'll be middle of the pack or lower again and apparently that means we don't need anything if you listen to some others in this thread.

[Lucrece]

I'm not worried about how I perform as an individual in my raid. I'm more interested in how we do overall in raids and previous parses have shown we don't do that well. I would love the ability to specialize more in ST without gutting myself in AoE but nothing changed talent wise for us. We still have plenty of dead talents or vastly inferior options on our talent rows.

But it seems like you said we'll be middle of the pack or lower again and apparently that means we don't need anything if you listen to some others in this thread.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=3&dataset=90

I mean, come on dude. 4th place on player damage behind the 3 OP specs that are getting nerfed by 5% is not exactly a terrible spot to be.

[thedeisel]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=3&dataset=90

I mean, come on dude. 4th place on player damage behind the 3 OP specs that are getting nerfed by 5% is not exactly a terrible spot to be.

7.2.5 Nighthold stats not exactly enlightening for a few reasons, right? First and foremost, tiny sample size. Second, loads of specs have severely nerfed T19 bonuses they're forced to play with. Moonkin don't. Plus, the overall data count Tichondrius which is just a constant aoe cheese fest at this point and which we utterly dominate. Nothing in progress raiding looks like Tichondrius does now.

Let's suppose, though, that these data have some value. Even with those asymmetric moonkin benefits compared to most of the raiding spec population and with a 4pc T19 whose entire value goes into our single target (and which multiplies our single target buff to starsurge in 7.2.5) we're still lower mid pack single target dps. Trilliax, Botanist, and Krosus we're below mean and median dps. And all the specs below us on single target are being buffed on June 20/21.

There's no doubt that our single target dps will be a significant weakness in ToS (and no doubt that is 100% intentional design). There will be few, if any, specs that do less single target damage than moonkin. The question is just how much that will matter. How much less will we do? 10% less than average as in Nighthold? Within 5% of average? How much of the challenge in ToS will come from pure single target throughput? How much is cheap cleave (like we can generate) worth? We'll have to see how that plays out over the course of ToS. Lots of moonkin value, though, will vary based on raid comps.

[branbib]

I mean, come on dude. 4th place on player damage behind the 3 OP specs that are getting nerfed by 5% is not exactly a terrible spot to be.

I hope you're trolling. Also ToS has a lot less aoe then NH, which was our strong side, and more ST dps-check bosses, which is our weakness.

[Polarthief]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=3&dataset=90

I mean, come on dude. 4th place on player damage behind the 3 OP specs that are getting nerfed by 5% is not exactly a terrible spot to be.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1867

That's a more accurate representation towards our weakness. Granted, it's not as bad as some people are making it, but a tiny buff to our ST (preferably filler spells or another buff to Starsurge) would make us ideally perfect.

[Lucrece]

7.2.5 Nighthold stats not exactly enlightening for a few reasons, right? First and foremost, tiny sample size. Second, loads of specs have severely nerfed T19 bonuses they're forced to play with. Moonkin don't. Plus, the overall data count Tichondrius which is just a constant aoe cheese fest at this point and which we utterly dominate. Nothing in progress raiding looks like Tichondrius does now.

Let's suppose, though, that these data have some value. Even with those asymmetric moonkin benefits compared to most of the raiding spec population and with a 4pc T19 whose entire value goes into our single target (and which multiplies our single target buff to starsurge in 7.2.5) we're still lower mid pack single target dps. Trilliax, Botanist, and Krosus we're below mean and median dps. And all the specs below us on single target are being buffed on June 20/21.

There's no doubt that our single target dps will be a significant weakness in ToS (and no doubt that is 100% intentional design). There will be few, if any, specs that do less single target damage than moonkin. The question is just how much that will matter. How much less will we do? 10% less than average as in Nighthold? Within 5% of average? How much of the challenge in ToS will come from pure single target throughput? How much is cheap cleave (like we can generate) worth? We'll have to see how that plays out over the course of ToS. Lots of moonkin value, though, will vary based on raid comps.

For whichever moonkin you bring, you can bring an arms warrior/assassination rogue/affliction warlock to sit on the boss while the aoe/cleave casters do their thing.

If we're not talking mythic where you can't round out the roster to fill in for every need, then it doesn't matter anyways.

Elemental shaman has been a shithole for ST DPS in NH as well and there were still mythic clears of Trilliax, Star Augur, and Krosus with them in it.

Let's be honest here, people won't be satisfied until they sit in top 5. It's always been down to meter envy, as the vast majority of these forum members are not even in top 50 world guilds, so they'll get their mythic clears regardless if they actually do mythic given most of them will down bosses with current raid gear instead of downing bosses undergeared where class comp matters most.

[Kyanion]

Let's be honest here, people won't be satisfied until they sit in top 5. It's always been down to meter envy, as the vast majority of these forum members are not even in top 50 world guilds, so they'll get their mythic clears regardless if they actually do mythic given most of them will down bosses with current raid gear instead of downing bosses undergeared where class comp matters most.

Man you are being so dishonest here it is painful. First you link some bullshit meters and get called out on it and then you move the goalposts accusing people of wanting to be top 5 or dismissing them because they aren't in top 50 world guilds. Fun fact: There are far more moonkins raiding outside of top 50 world guilds so I think those moonkins matter just as much if not more than the tiny fraction that are in that group.

I can't speak for the others but I just want us to perform better than we have been this expansion. Be it a change in some talents a small buff to ST or what have you. And ALSO there is more to the game than just raiding, there is PvP and M+ to take into consideration here, which you obviously haven't because you think the game is only about raiding.

[Lucrece]

Man you are being so dishonest here it is painful. First you link some bullshit meters and get called out on it and then you move the goalposts accusing people of wanting to be top 5 or dismissing them because they aren't in top 50 world guilds. Fun fact: There are far more moonkins raiding outside of top 50 world guilds so I think those moonkins matter just as much if not more than the tiny fraction that are in that group.

I can't speak for the others but I just want us to perform better than we have been this expansion. Be it a change in some talents a small buff to ST or what have you. And ALSO there is more to the game than just raiding, there is PvP and M+ to take into consideration here, which you obviously haven't because you think the game is only about raiding.

It's amusing you would even bring up m+ as a moonkin, given balance druids perform incredibly well at higher key levels and the greatest time shave comes from clearing trash pulls where stellar drift is ridiculously strong.

In PvP moonkin have been doing extremely well, so spare me.

In a raid what matters is that you get a kill. And these raids are tuned so having a balance druid is not the reason you can't get kills.

But feel free to bemoan what will never change with this game. Sometimes you'll be the afflock, sometimes you'll be the windwalker monk throughout these expansions. If you can't raid as balance, it's not the spec's fault, because it certainly is not doing so horribly that people are getting sat out of mythic raids.

[huth]

For whichever moonkin you bring, you can bring an arms warrior/assassination rogue/affliction warlock to sit on the boss while the aoe/cleave casters do their thing.

The Afflilock i give you, but you can't simply replace a range with a melee or vice versa.

[Kyanion]

It's amusing you would even bring up m+ as a moonkin, given balance druids perform incredibly well at higher key levels and the greatest time shave comes from clearing trash pulls where stellar drift is ridiculously strong.

In PvP moonkin have been doing extremely well, so spare me.

In a raid what matters is that you get a kill. And these raids are tuned so having a balance druid is not the reason you can't get kills.

But feel free to bemoan what will never change with this game. Sometimes you'll be the afflock, sometimes you'll be the windwalker monk throughout these expansions. If you can't raid as balance, it's not the spec's fault, because it certainly is not doing so horribly that people are getting sat out of mythic raids.

You are putting words into my mouth if you think I said we performed bad in some of those roles. I just said you need to take all facets of the game into consideration when looking at buffs/nerfs.

But I don't think it really matters when it comes to talking with you over this. You then go on to talk about a lack of kills in my raid or my inability to have a slot in my raid as balance or some shit. Did I EVER say any of those things were balances fault if these hypothetical situations you present were happening? No.

[Malmmoc]

This lockout, I was more competitive on the meters than I have been all of nighthold. Whether that will continue in ToS remains to be seen and is obviously up for debate.

One thing I want to add though is a comment regarding who class balance is relevant to. I have raided on 3 hour a week casual teams, all the way up to 16 hour a week hardcore mythic raid teams, and the vast majority of them had one thing in common. They tried to do their best by emulating the best. Just because a sub-optimal comp can clear the content (by definition, slower than an optimal one) doesn't mean raid leaders won't turn to comps as a way to try and deal with stalled progression. Some teams will just say who cares, play what you want, but in my experience, an awful lot of them look to get every edge they can to try and do better.

[Lucrece]

The Afflilock i give you, but you can't simply replace a range with a melee or vice versa.

That's exactly what the top 3 world guilds did for M gul'dan. They sat a bunch of assassination rogues on him on top of the fury warriors. Sitting on the boss has usually been the role of melee. Ranged deal with far more mechanics, which is why they're preferred to begin with. They're just more flexible.

[huth]

That's exactly what the top 3 world guilds did for M gul'dan. They sat a bunch of assassination rogues on him on top of the fury warriors. Sitting on the boss has usually been the role of melee. Ranged deal with far more mechanics, which is why they're preferred to begin with. They're just more flexible.

You need a bit more than just a single encounter that doesn't restrict the number of melees you can bring.

[Lucrece]

You need a bit more than just a single encounter that doesn't restrict the number of melees you can bring.

Much of NH was like that. Only Krosus and maybe Elisande really punished a raid that was too heavy on melee.

[huth]

Much of NH was like that. Only Krosus and maybe Elisande really punished a raid that was too heavy on melee.

On Mythic it's a lot more than that. Star Augur you need to be spread out or Conjunction will wipe you before the encounter even gets properly started. Tichondrius, too many melees means some need to camp out behind the farther spikes. Tel'arn, you get all sorts of debuff related trouble. Aluriel too. Trilliax is going to rapidly fill up melee space with puddles and you're going to have trouble getting all bots before they explode.

[gobio]

This lockout, I was more competitive on the meters than I have been all of nighthold. Whether that will continue in ToS remains to be seen and is obviously up for debate.

One thing I want to add though is a comment regarding who class balance is relevant to. I have raided on 3 hour a week casual teams, all the way up to 16 hour a week hardcore mythic raid teams, and the vast majority of them had one thing in common. They tried to do their best by emulating the best. Just because a sub-optimal comp can clear the content (by definition, slower than an optimal one) doesn't mean raid leaders won't turn to comps as a way to try and deal with stalled progression. Some teams will just say who cares, play what you want, but in my experience, an awful lot of them look to get every edge they can to try and do better.

This CD I am more competitive too, merely because there are 4 DH collectively shitting the bed, and they have been talking about assigning 2 to tank while rerolling the other 2. Funny stuff.

P.S. I mean those 6 little trees actually got to pretend to chase people, those slob thing actually get to see the world for a full and stacked starfall duration. Elemental of varies kind actually now properly give balance druid a chance on meter. This CD is wonderful when DH is shitting the bed, only if you have 4.