LFR - Increase Rewards, Increase Difficulty, Remove Determination.

[tikcol]

If this were true, why do guilds, such as mine, constantly bring in applicants to our raids (usually decent skilled players from other mythics guilds), yet they cant perform on the level we need them to? Do i think most players in the game are able to kill 1-2 mythic bosses by the end of a tier? yeah, easily. It took us a couple hours to kill heroic Guldan the first day, but Mythic Skyp went down in 3 attempts. Also, i don't think its "smug" of me to say that i think most players, not only LFR players, probably cant perform at a highly competitive level. What is smug however, is coming into a thread and claiming "lulz anyone can do mythic, you just have better social skills". I think you would be pretty surprised at how little you know if you were thrusted into a top 100 world guild for the first few weeks of a raid tier.

That's called circle jerking. You're blaming outsiders for your own lack of skill

[Toogoodman]

You're very naive.

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I should start going to threads you frequent wish I deem not worthy and copy paste that

Im going to assume 3 things about you

1) You're a keyboard turner
2) You're a clicker
3) You're a big Bernie fan

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That's called circle jerking. You're blaming outsiders for your own lack of skill

My lack of skill? Now you're a fucking clown bud

[Scathbais]

So I had a thought that would make LFR [something other than it was designed to be, something I shouldn't be bothering with because LFR content is not for me, and finally something that no on asked for]. <snip>

Fixed that for you

/end thread

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Believe it or not, LFR raiding is a thing and is quite challenging. You don't even notice when you join a LFR raid because you're basically an outsider.

What an amazing troll post. I can't believe posters actually believed this guy was serious.

Well played Tikcol.

OT: Jaylock strikes again.

[Marrilaife]

This guy i was responding to, says these clown ass comments in every thread, and hes not trolling, this is what he actually believes.

Dunno, since the caps spamming in the thread about warlock summons I suspect it might actually be a troll, but if we take Jaylock as comparison, he's much better at that, he picks a subject that can actually be discussed and just always picks the "against the stream" direction so people can argue about it.

That's the whole beauty about it, you participate in a Jaylock thread, you know people are bound to argue because that's always the goal of a Jaylock thread, you exchange opinions, and then you encounter some crude troll along the way and you start thinking if only every troll was the level of Jaylock we could have actually interesting discussion instead of kindergarten level of one liners "I don't have any argument but I'm just gonna up my post count by claiming you're wrong and repeating it 20 times".

That's why Jaylock is not on my ignore list contrary to many other user's ignore lists while I have quite of few of these trolls collected "ah it's this guy, he never has anything of substance to say anyway, might as well treat him as the kid he is". Could name at least 3 people who are known for spamming threads of way less substance than Jaylock threads and few other people who are stuck repeating the same lines over and again in every thread without any proof to back it up (my favourite was a guy who has an obsession about mythic raiding ruining everything together with bringing his philosophy about "alphas vs betas" into everything), I'm sure it's against some rules to name these people publicly but you know what kind of people I have in mind. So generally, don't take anything seriously, move on.

-----

Back to the subject, it's obvious to me also from opinions of people who admit they only raid lfr (the non trolls) that the most important part of lfr is: you can consume it in chunks and leave if any irl situation happens, intended lfr audience are the people who no matter the skill or lack thereof expect "high chance being interrupted by irl mid raid" therefore it can't be something that requires 100% of concentration for prolonged periods of time, so challenge and progression doesn't fit well into that picture.

If they could concentrate 100% and expect to not be interrupted for x hours straight, just had erratic schedule so unable to commit to a guild, they could still pug a normal or hc, if they had semi-irregular schedule they could join a casual raiding guild with at least partially fitting schedule and come to the raids when they can, taking advantage of normal / hc being flex and not relying on them being there 100% of the time to fill the slot.

LFR just takes the niche of "I'm not screwing over anyone if I leave or have to afk", so obviously it's tuned around people not paying attention or afking, there's a difference between afking because baby cried or phone rang and afking because someone is lazy and wants to watch netflix while collecting pixels on a second monitor, but the game has no way of discerning them therefore gives a mode where everyone can participate and the effort bar is deliberately set low.

So generally lfr is useful to fill the need of low effort, low impact type of content while also giving people ways to see the content in a more interactive manner than just watching it on youtube.

Adding extra difficulty "like normal, but queueable" is not really adding that much while diluting the playerbase (splitting them between 2 queues).

[Deleted]

IThere's actually people very serious about LFR raiding which put a lot of effort in them.

Really? How? I'm not down on LFR but the only time I recall them requiring any kind of effort at all was Garrosh/Archimonde when the raids opened. The latter was kind of funny-people kept wiping until I figured out shouting "Kill things which are not Archimonde" repeatedly worked wonders.
80% of the time you could sit out LFR without any one noticing.

[Camthur]

Absolutely not. Leave LFR alone. Some people just want to see the story line progress/complete. Others just want to get in and get out for some profession they were forced to go there for.

[DechCJC]

You're literally complaining that easy mode is too easy.

Kill me.

[Marrilaife]

OT: Jaylock strikes again.

As I said in my previous post, Jaylock threads can be entertaining knowing what you're getting into. I could go to my ignore list and pick several people from there who spam threads of much lower quality, and that's actually after I disabled all the off-topic and politics sub-forums leaving mostly the wow and games sections up.

The only thing I'm wondering about is if for once the community wasn't split and everyone agreed with him, what would he do? I'm sure if everyone agreed we should add 5th raid mode the next thread he'd make would be about too many raid modes and which one to remove.

[Frolk]

You would be surprised to know the average LFR raider is as skilled as the average mythic raider. The mythic raider just has more time to play and human interaction comes easy to him

Id like to see logs so we can compare their relative dps to mythic raider ones and how much avoidable damage they both took.

But im guessing these LFR master raiders dosnt really exist.

[Sansnom]

Most ppl who do LFR dont want it to be hard and they got ZERO intentions on improving themself, they want their tourist mode with free loot.

and i say, let em have their tourist mode

"Most" people. You know. They told you?

[cuafpr]

No, but i could see making normal queable by wings as that is the number one complaint amongst my limited friends that don't want to raid on a schedule. They want to que and wait for an invite, not stand around and look for a group to run with, and/or only want to run one wing at a time vs dedicating hours to a raid.

[Thetruth1400]

Most ppl who do LFR dont want it to be hard and they got ZERO intentions on improving themself, they want their tourist mode with free loot.

and i say, let em have their tourist mode

I agree about the tourism, but disagree with the loot. Frankly, if you're putting in next to no effort, which is exactly what LFR is, you don't need gear that progresses your character. If LFR is spectator mode, it needs to be treated like it, and that means you see the content, but that's it. If you want to gear out a character, you should have to put in at least some kind of effort besides showing up and auto attacking things until they die.

I'm in no way an elitist as I don't do most of the raiding let alone heroic / mythic level raiding, but I also feel that those people that actually do commit, learn to play their classes and do what's needed (food buffs, enchants, potions, etc.) deserve more than just a different color variation and an achievement that says "Hey, you did this on harder mode!" Frankly, I'd like them to just wipe LFR off the map or at least make it reward no gear or gear no higher than dungeon level gear and get rid of the 4 difficulties we have in place in favor of 2 max; 1 that's the current Normal difficulty which would be the new LFR, and the other in between current Heroic and Mythic difficulties for the people that actually care to progress. Bring back the old style difficulty this game used to have where it took more than a month for the content to be cleared, even by the top guilds.

[Jastall]

So basically Normal.

[Sensa]

Casual players aren't necessarily bad players or players who don't want any form of challenge. They just might not have the same time to commit as other more hardcore players.

So why not provide at least an option for these casual players to progress with a difficulty that they would be more prone to gravitate toward (normal, but in my proposed LFR, it would be a step below normal on a queue)

I'm a casual player, that occasionally does LFR, that used to actually raid way back.

The LFR debate keeps going around in circles because it's a bad idea to begin with.

If it's tourist mode for those that want to see/have access to all content, but don't have the time and/or desire and/or skill to raid, it doesn't actually need any gear rewards. The beginnings of the idea for LFR was the complaint that this content (raiding) was designed for the 1 percenters and unfair to the rest.

There's no way to make LFR more difficult without making it into an actual raid because anything more difficult would require coordination not possible in the LFR format

There's also little evidence that LFR has actually led to increased participation (another oft stated goal) in normal or higher raiding largely because of the fact the people that do LFR don't have the time and/or desire and/or skill to raid.

There are also enough alternative methods of gear attainment that a casual player can easily obtain the required ilvl needed to do almost every other max level PvE activity in the game with relative ease.

Increasing rewards in LFR has, as has been documented in the past, forced real raiders into LFR gear progression runs.

Bottom line - those asking for better gear in LFR are really asking for even more welfare epics.

[damonskye]

Ugh. This again? Really?

LFR is not a progression battle. It's not about 'raiding'. It's not about your 'welfare epics'. It's a niche tool that allows people who have no other interest in learning strats and raiding in a traditional sense to do things that they might find interesting to do. It's about matching people with other strangers to accomplish a task in their spare time without putting any thought into it, JUST LIKE world quests and dungeons. The loot they get from LFR has no impact or bearing upon anyone else; they get it because it's something that makes those players feel good.

AND THOSE "WELFARE-EPIC" LFR PLAYERS PAY FOR THIS GAME JUST LIKE YOU DO. Just as MUCH as you do.

Enough, Jaylock, with your anti-LFR, anti-traditional-raiding, "welfare epics are bad" posts already, even the ones like this couched in your notions of "concern" for your fellow players.

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I agree about the tourism, but disagree with the loot. Frankly, if you're putting in next to no effort, which is exactly what LFR is, you don't need gear that progresses your character.

Without gear that gives LFR players some sort of meaningful reason to actually log in and play, even the small amount of gear "progression" it affords which justifies the time involved, these players will go away.

And these casual players pay a large portion of the Blizzard bills. Without them, WoW would end. One of these days I hope people start realizing that.

[Marrilaife]

Frankly, I'd like them to just wipe LFR off the map or at least make it reward no gear or gear no higher than dungeon level gear and get rid of the 4 difficulties we have in place in favor of 2 max;

LFR already doesn't offer gear higher than dungeon gear - you can get better gear from mythic+ (which is dungeons) than from lfr.

TOS lfr loot starts at 885, so excluding the problem that is titanforging and just discussing the baseline - that's barely 5 ilvls over the loot I already get from farming pvp towers on my alts (requires zero effort) or from farming nethershards (takes time, not skill), and 15 ilvls less than broken shore world bosses and crafted items.

So I don't see how is it an issue, the only issue is titanforging tbh, baseline lfr loot is a small reward for small effort, so it's quite adequate, you can get similar loot from even easier content, and you can get much better loot from dungeons especially in a week from now m+15 changes are kicking it rewarding higher loot (that's also the time when first lfr wing opens).

Personally I think all the 4 difficulties serve a purpose atm and the only issue I have is that maybe heroic could be a tad bit harder.
LFR = for people who want to see the content but don't want to / cannot commit to raiding
Normal = for people who want to chill with friends or pug in an environment where mistakes are forgiving but the bosses actually do something, you need to pay attention but can still raid without much stress
Heroic = for people who want to progress in a flex environment, so they don't have to worry about 100% attendance or being benched, but still want bosses that require learning and tactics to be followed, however they aren't brutally hard so if someone falls out of learning curve due to less attendance they can catch up to speed without much pain
Mythic = for people who want the old school feeling of committing to a guild and progressing with the same group of people week after week through gradually more challenging bosses

The only problem I see here is heroic being puggable from week 1 and being too close to normal in a way it doesn't offer much feeling of "progress" to people who want less strict environment than "fixed 20" mythic, and people whom heroic is intended for run out of content way faster than mythic raiders or normal raiders (yes, there are casual guilds who progress through normal then dip toes into heroic, hc guilds often can't do same with mythic because the "fixed 20" is the barrier).

Common misconception widespread on these forums is that mythic is intended "only for the elite among the elite", which creates 2 problems, in that case mythic would be intended towards too narrow of an audience together with heroic being way below the bar for majority of the players told "they should maybe just stick to heroic and not raid mythic".

But with LFR and normal, I don't see much problems, each of them has a different niche they fulfil quite fine.

[Toogoodman]

Ugh. This again? Really?

LFR is not a progression battle. It's not about 'raiding'. It's not about your 'welfare epics'. It's a niche tool that allows people who have no other interest in learning strats and raiding in a traditional sense to do things that they might find interesting to do. It's about matching people with other strangers to accomplish a task in their spare time without putting any thought into it, JUST LIKE world quests and dungeons. The loot they get from LFR has no impact or bearing upon anyone else; they get it because it's something that makes those players feel good.

AND THOSE "WELFARE-EPIC" LFR PLAYERS PAY FOR THIS GAME JUST LIKE YOU DO. Just as MUCH as you do.

Enough, Jaylock, with your anti-LFR, anti-traditional-raiding, "welfare epics are bad" posts already, even the ones like this couched in your notions of "concern" for your fellow players.

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Without gear that gives LFR players some sort of meaningful reason to actually log in and play, even the small amount of gear "progression" it affords which justifies the time involved, these players will go away.

And these casual players pay a large portion of the Blizzard bills. Without them, WoW would end. One of these days I hope people start realizing that.

Actually, a decently large portion of the super casual audience probably stays around for a month or two, unsubs, and comes back when there is more content, for a month or so, and the cycle repeats. Most of my IRL friends who play, do exactly this, and during any content drought, you can actively see this happening. So, actually, players who tend to do higher level difficulties, high level PvP, hardcore collectors, big time completionist, these people are who keep the game alive, because they constantly play it.

[MoanaLisa]

With the op's long history of creating threads about LFR with the primary purpose of stirring up the forum, creating yet another proposing that LFR become like normal mode raiding can be seen for what it is.

Closing.