If there is only one burning legion across all universes...

[Piamonte]

-The twisting nether has time just as we do, it has a past, present and future, our present is the same as the demon's present.
-Because of this, demons can only invade us in the present, and they invade every single timeline at once
-if one being becomes a demon, then all of his counterparts in every single timeline, also becomes a demon, this event becomes fijated in time
-As we have never seen a demonic Velen, then we can safely assume that to this point in time, not a single Velen has fallen to corruption
-Every single alter ego of a being, become one in the nether after dieing (if he was corrupted at some point)
-Wod was in the past until Kairoz connected it to our present, so when Guldan was corrupted, he was corrupted because of the Kiljaeden of that timeline, but after Kairoz meddling he was now talking with present Kiljaeden, to the legion it was like if a new opportunity appeared out of nothing.
-The legion can´t travel through time but they are cross dimensional beings, once a demon enters reality, he enters all timelines at once, first, many beings became one in the nether and now the same process can occur backwards, one being in the nether can become many in the timelines

With all these rules there shouldn´t be any problem with the whole: one legion - infinite timelines

[TheFirstOnes]

Cause, Blizzard....

[Eazy]

-if one being becomes a demon, then all of his counterparts in every single timeline, also becomes a demon, this event becomes fijated in time

This makes no sense, for example, Velen didn't even see Kil'jaeden(because he was never born). Blizzard is not only manipulating the verses but also timelines.
If Kil'jaeden is bad, and suddenly all Kil'jaeden goes bad(turns to demon etc), then in the alternate Argus where we go 25k years before Kil'jaeden is never born and Velen don't even know him.

[Ilikegreenfire]

This makes no sense, for example, Velen didn't even see Kil'jaeden(because he was never born). Blizzard is not only manipulating the verses but also timelines.
If Kil'jaeden is bad, and suddenly all Kil'jaeden goes bad(turns to demon etc), then in the alternate Argus where we go 25k years before Kil'jaeden is never born and Velen don't even know him.

Becoming a demon is probably a universal constant thank's to the twisting nether, something that is burned into every universe. Archy and KJ always turn into demons, every respective pre demon Archy and KJ merge into one entity once they become demons, thank's again to the twisting nether.

[Eazy]

Becoming a demon is probably a universal constant thank's to the twisting nether, something that is burned into every universe. Archy and KJ always turn into demons, every respective pre demon Archy and KJ merge into one entity once they become demons, thank's again to the twisting nether.

Yeah but what about the timeline where they weren't yet born? Does that mean alternate universe younger Velen doesn't even know them?

[MikeBogina]

Blizzard didn't put any thought into this alternative timeline nonsense with one Legion across all of them. They've had so much time to hash it out and they decide to just not acknowledge it anymore.

They should never have touched the topic of time travel and gave the Bronze another power.

[Qualia]

Yeah but what about the timeline where they weren't yet born? Does that mean alternate universe younger Velen doesn't even know them?

In the universe where Archimonde / KJ didn't exist by the demon turning time, they wouldn't turn into a demon at all? There are uncorrupted Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden around, after all. And yes, it'd mean in that alternate universe, Velen wouldn't know them - at least at that point in time.

[Destinas]

Time travel and alternate realities aren't exactly simple. In many cases, there are alternate copies of worlds that exist at different time periods - as shown in WoD. However, going back in time within a single timeline will change the future - as shown in the WotA trilogy and what is trying to be prevented in the Chromie scenario and CoT instances. We were able to go to Draenor and alter the entire future of the planet because it was a separate thread from our own Outland. Outland is still Outland, AU Draenor now has it's own future, even though the universes were very similar. It's the reason that our Velen is still alive, while the WoD Velen sacrificed himself, as well.

Now what that means for demons wasn't made clear. If there's one infinite Legion, then surely WoD Socrethar would have known about his defeat at our hands in our Outland in the future. Surely Archimonde wouldn't have brought the exact same lieutenants that were defeated in the Third War to WoD Draenor - and surely they would all remember us when we went back into our own timeline to face him again in the Caverns of Time. SURELY Kil'jaeden and Mannoroth wouldn't attempt to corrupt the orcs AGAIN on another Draenor, considering it didn't end up well for them in our timeline. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't really gain that many more forces by corrupting the orcs as well, if they would simply join souls (or something?) with the fel orcs of our timeline. Mannoroth also wouldn't need to have been partially resurrected in Hellfire Citadel if they can just reincarnate in the Twisting Nether, as well.

It's entirely possible that the Legion gets stronger with more and more versions of themselves in different timelines, joining together as one. It's possible that it helps them resurrect quicker to have more versions of themselves, as well. Absolutely none of this was made clear in WoD or the Chronicle books so far. What was stated was that the souls of demons are anchored to the Twisting Nether, which transcends all realities in this tweet from Alex Afrasiabi (which was part of the string of tweets that confirmed the "infinite Legion" story). He later also never really answered if there are uncorrupted versions of already existing demons in this tweet - though, we already know that being corrupted in one timeline doesn't automatically make every potential future demon an actual demon, as shown with Othaar/Socrethar in WoD, and all the uncorrupted orcs from WoD as well. That makes a "good" Archimonde and Kil'jaeden very possible, as well as a demonic Velen.

Tldr: There are no real answers about that yet. It seems they wanted us to fight the Legion in WoD without making it seem like we were fighting another random alternate Legion for no reason. In a way, it makes the Legion seem more intimidating when we have to face them over and over until they are killed in the Nether or a fel corrupted world. However, that intimidation is taken away again when we know that the Legion has infinite chances in infinite worlds from infinite dimensions, and they continue to make the same choices and mistakes.

[MikeBogina]

Becoming a demon is probably a universal constant thank's to the twisting nether, something that is burned into every universe. Archy and KJ always turn into demons, every respective pre demon Archy and KJ merge into one entity once they become demons, thank's again to the twisting nether.

What if Archy became a demon to fight fire with fire and was the first Demon Hunter? How would that merge work? I think a lot of people make the assumption that all of the same person across all timelines have the same personality, or don't consider it at all when talking about this. If there's endless universes, how many times did Archimonde have different morals and views on what's right and wrong. That's why it's so had to take this one Legion serious, because there's probably Demon Velens out there that became demons, KJ's and Archimonde's who resisted. Hell im sure there's timelines where Sargeras didn't become a demon and stayed a good guy.

[Qualia]

What if Archy became a demon to fight fire with fire and was the first Demon Hunter? How would that merge work? I think a lot of people make the assumption that all of the same person across all timelines have the same personality, or don't consider it at all when talking about this. If there's endless universes, how many times did Archimonde have different morals and views on what's right and wrong. That's why it's so had to take this one Legion serious, because there's probably Demon Velens out there that became demons, KJ's and Archimonde's who resisted. Hell im sure there's timelines where Sargeras didn't become a demon and stayed a good guy.

It isn't impossible that when someone become a demon - it is recorded in the records of the multiverse. As a result, all of their demonic transformation process will be the same with no exception. If the Akashic Records (or the equivalent in WoW multiverse) states something in the line of "In case Archimonde become a demon, he will become a demon and join the fallen Titan Sargeras at Argus Year xx, with abilities as such: <blahblah>", it will be the same for every single Archimonde that become demons - even if the circumstances or his personalities are different, his mind will just be twisted / tuned accordingly. It isn't something unheard of for an event to be unchangable because it is destined to be so, at least in Asia's stories (China / Japan specifically) - we might (or might not, I'm not 100% sure of the author's intention) have seen something similar in what Xe'ra told Illidan that no matter where he will be, no matter what he will do, he will become a Champion of Light.

Is that speculation / explanation suffice?

[MikeBogina]

However, that intimidation is taken away again when we know that the Legion has infinite chances in infinite worlds from infinite dimensions, and they continue to make the same choices and mistakes.

According to some people on here, Archimonde and Sargeras lose at WotA and then go to the next universe and do it all over again and lose over and over again. The fact that this has never been mentioned before and that the Legion is so overly confident that they're gonna win, means Blizzard did an ass pull.


Blizzard really failed at trying to make the Legion look cool by making it "One Legion that transcends all timelines" and it became "One Legion fails across all timelines"...I could understand if their souls were shared and they had unique physical bodies, minds and personalities for each universe with no shared experiences. There's also gotta be good versions of all of these guys and demons of good guys from our timeline.

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't impossible that when someone become a demon - it is recorded in the records of the multiverse. As a result, all of their demonic transformation process will be the same with no exception. If the Akashic Records (or the equivalent in WoW multiverse) states something in the line of "In case Archimonde become a demon, he will become a demon and join the fallen Titan Sargeras at Argus Year xx, with abilities as such: <blahblah>", it will be the same for every single Archimonde that become demons - even if the circumstances or his personalities are different, his mind will just be twisted / tuned accordingly. It isn't something unheard of, at least in Asia's stories (China / Japan specifically).

Is that speculation / explanation suffice?

No, because who determines the dominate personality? And where are the demon versions of people who don't exist in our timeline?(inb4 Argus raid is full evil twins who can't enter universes they didn't become demons in)

[Destinas]

According to some people on here, Archimonde and Sargeras lose at WotA and then go to the next universe and do it all over again and lose over and over again. The fact that this has never been mentioned before and that the Legion is so overly confident that they're gonna win, means Blizzard did an ass pull.


Blizzard really failed at trying to make the Legion look cool by making it "One Legion that transcends all timelines" and it became "One Legion fails across all timelines"...I could understand if their souls were shared and they had unique physical bodies, minds and personalities for each universe with no shared experiences. There's also gotta be good versions of all of these guys and demons of good guys from our timeline.

The thing that muddles it up even further is Gul'dan. In the Tomb of Sargeras audio books, it is repeated that Kil'jaeden refers to our Gul'dan as "you" when speaking to the alternate one. Gul'dan also repeatedly states that the "other one" wasn't him, and that he has no memories and has only heard stories (from the Legion/taunts from Khadgar) about the "other one" and his fate. It could be argued that he isn't "corrupted" in WoD and before the Broken Shore, so his "unified demon soul" wouldn't exist yet. Even then, he had a Fel Orc-like body in the Nighthold fight, but reverted back to a green orc after the fight in the cinematic.

I suppose Grom Hellscream could count as a separate version. In our timeline (albeit further in the future) he becomes a demonic fel orc, and in WoD he is completely uncorrupted. Otherwise, it could potentially be a cool storyline in the future to hear about alternate good and bad guys in opposite roles, but I feel like they'd have to clean up the edges around the rules for this "infinite Legion" idea.

[Qualia]

No, because who determines the dominate personality? And where are the demon versions of people who don't exist in our timeline?(inb4 Argus raid is full evil twins who can't enter universes they didn't become demons in)

It's not that the personality of the demon is decided by himself. It's that the personality of the demon is decided by fate (or again, the Akashic Record if you think "fate" doesn't sound cool enough, they are more or less the same though) - as in, it's already written into record by the start of all things that demon Archimonde -
if exist - will have personality as we know him. The entity demon Archimonde - singular since there is demons are singularities - is prescribed in the system, and when all entities normal Archimonde become demons, they will just turn into it.

As of demon versions of people who don't exist in our timeline - maybe we simply just never see them as they are busy with their tasks somewhere else. "Illidan" confirmed that the Legion only use a small fragment of their army to assault us while the rest carrying out their invasions in other worlds, in a multiversal scale. Isn't it a better idea to send someone to attack (or plan an attack) on a world he is familiar with, rather than one that he isn't (as he never exist there)?

The thing that muddles it up even further is Gul'dan. In the Tomb of Sargeras audio books, it is repeated that Kil'jaeden refers to our Gul'dan as "you" when speaking to the alternate one. Gul'dan also repeatedly states that the "other one" wasn't him, and that he has no memories and has only heard stories (from the Legion/taunts from Khadgar) about the "other one" and his fate. It could be argued that he isn't "corrupted" in WoD and before the Broken Shore, so his "unified demon soul" wouldn't exist yet. Even then, he had a Fel Orc-like body in the Nighthold fight, but reverted back to a green orc after the fight in the cinematic.

Gul'dan or Grom are never demons, though. Not MU version, not AU one. Being corrupted by fel don't automatically turn you into a demon. Otherwise, all DHs would have become demons - which wasn't the case as only some of them have demon souls (I assume the rest just have demonic feature, but a mortal soul nevertheless).

[OIS]

So what happens when a demon turns back into its previous form? Like Lothraxion or that satyr in Ashenvale.

[Pandragon]

If there is only one burning legion across all universes... How is there more than one Velen, one KJ etc.. That makes zero sense.

Cheers

Who says that more than one can't exist in the same universe? Obviously there were 2 Khadgar's in that universe, and 2 of anyone else who wasn't a demon who showed up from the main timeline. Oh..there was only one Garrosh...because that timelines Garrosh was never born. The timelines are not identical, there are difference. In some timelines there was never an Archimonde, or Kil'jaeden, or Velen.

But for those that do exist, most likely what happens is when they join the legion, they are then sacrificed, and their power is given to the original one.

To make it more confusing: WoD involved time travel, so that Archimonde we fought was the same as we defeat on our timeline.

So... that Mount Hyjal raid in Caverns of Time makes it even more messy when we fought him there. If there's only one Archimonde in the different timelines, I'm certain he would know there would be wisps there. ;_:

oh for the love of all that is holy. WoD WAS NOT TIME TRAVEL. It was set in a different timeline that was 30 years behind ours. If it was time travel, the moment Grom denied the blood, our timeline would have ceased to exist cause the orcs wouldn't have invaded how they did.

Also, have you never heard of "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"? Example, Mannoroth being killed by Grom a second time.

Why is it when Marvel or DC does a multiverse, everyone is into it, and they figure everything out. But when WoW does it, everyone loses their minds and bitch and moan "oh this stupid and we can't explain anything". It's not difficult to understand.

[MikeBogina]

So what happens when a demon turns back into its previous form? Like Lothraxion or that satyr in Ashenvale.

Things like that break the whole concept. Satyr for instance are all demons, so they would have merged with all their counterparts, which means no two of the same satyr can exist and thus, all worlds except ours has satyrs... which probably solidifies us as the actual real main universe... and if that's the case, why does the legion bother with other timelines in the first place.

[Destinas]

Gul'dan or Grom are never demons, though. Not MU version, not AU one. Being corrupted by fel don't automatically turn you into a demon. Otherwise, all DHs would have become demons - which wasn't the case as only some of them have demon souls (I assume the rest just have demonic feature, but a mortal soul nevertheless).

Many demons of the Burning Legion are simply fel-corrupted versions of a once "pure" race. This is why Archimonde was able to resurrect in the Twisting Nether and return on alternate Draenor. Fel orcs are the fully demonic upgrades of corrupted/green orcs, similar to Man'ari Eredar compared to Draenei, or Felblood Elves compared to Blood Elves. AU Gul'dan becomes a fel orc in the Nighthold encounter, and MU Grom became one moments before his demise. Fel orcs share the same physical qualities and personality traits of other fully demonic creatures - spikes, claws, fangs, bloodlust, visible fel energy radiating from them (for the updated AU versions, anyway), a ritual to take in fel energy, etc.

The thing to question is: At what point of corruption does someone become an infinite demon? Blood Elves and many MU orcs are corrupted with a genetic, everlasting fel corruption, but they aren't considered demons. Are Felborne Elves considered the "fully demonic" version of Nightborne, or simply an equivalent to Blood Elves? If fel orcs aren't truly considered "full demons" then what are they? Why wouldn't Gul'dan ever be converted into a full demon if he was an important cog to the Legion's war machine?

[TickTickTick]

I'm of the impression that the Warcraft multiverse isn't one of those "all outcomes that could occur do occur in an infinity of alternative continuities." I'm thinking it's a sliding scale of continuities that create just a handful of stable universes where things are just a little difference from the primary continuity (e.g. the "one timeline" that the Bronze dragons were appointed to protect and cultivate). The other universes are unrealized realities - fragmented and patchwork, they likely exist only briefly before dissolving into nothingness. Kairoz and co. seized on one of the few universes where it was stable enough to be realized and made it a concrete instance that could be accessed and used for his own ends - one where the changes were minor enough to be stabilized.

As for how transcendent demons in the Nether function it can go one of two ways. Either on attaining true demonic status a mortal from a given universe is translated over to the Nether and his or her memories merge with their already demonic self, or the mortal in question is simply annihilated utterly as their "spot" is already occupied by a given demon (e.g. the case of Othaar/Socrethar in this case). Another possibility is that this merge is also universally transcendent, and that once a given mortal in a given universe becomes a demon then *all* their copies in alternate universes simultaneously do as well regardless of their current status.

I never thought about it that way, but now that you said it, it makes sense. Maybe not in an ideal way (sigh blizz), but it would explain so much.

Ours is the true timeline, the one that keeps existing no matter what. But each second, an alternate timeline splits from the main one, with some event occuring a little differently. It's just a phase, a hologram of the main one, and it exists for just a brief moment, then if disappears. Let's say Aman'thul assigned Nozdormu and the Bronze Dragonflight to watch over all the realities and ensure that the ones that split, disappear and not continue to exist. Since Deathwing's death Bronze's power diminished and they are no longer able to watch over the timelines like they did before.

Now, with the power of the hourglass Kairoz found the most stable, most likely to continue existing timeline and bound it to ours with the hourglass, ensuring its eternal existence (which means Bronzes can no longer get there and erase it). Basically, there are many alternate realities splitting from ours every second, but they are too weak in themselves to continue existing. The hourglass and Kairoz' choice of the most stabilized one ensured that the one we visited is forever bound to exist.

So in the end, everything there is exists only as the one piece, except if someone meddles with the timeline so much that it fails to disappear. One BL. One Pantheon. One everything. No problem with 'where is demon Velen? Where is good KJ?' etc.

As for the Twisting Nether, it's already been said it is above the physical reality, time has completely different rules there.

[MikeBogina]

oh for the love of all that is holy. WoD WAS NOT TIME TRAVEL. It was set in a different timeline that was 30 years behind ours. If it was time travel, the moment Grom denied the blood, our timeline would have ceased to exist cause the orcs wouldn't have invaded how they did.

I think what he's asking is does Archimonde and the Legion we face in WoD know us from our timeline and if so, why the hell are they not fighting all these battles in chronological order. It would make more sense for Archimonde to go from the same battle in time to the same exact one over and over instead of going from Hyjal to another universe and doing a battle 30 years earlier.

The part about the wisps is that why is Archimonde surprised if he's fought Hyjal numerous times, why does he let the ambush happen in so many universes if he has to go from one to the next.

- - - Updated - - -

Many demons of the Burning Legion are simply fel-corrupted versions of a once "pure" race. This is why Archimonde was able to resurrect in the Twisting Nether and return on alternate Draenor. Fel orcs are the fully demonic upgrades of corrupted/green orcs, similar to Man'ari Eredar compared to Draenei, or Felblood Elves compared to Blood Elves. AU Gul'dan becomes a fel orc in the Nighthold encounter, and MU Grom became one moments before his demise. Fel orcs share the same physical qualities and personality traits of other fully demonic creatures - spikes, claws, fangs, bloodlust, visible fel energy radiating from them (for the updated AU versions, anyway), a ritual to take in fel energy, etc.

The thing to question is: At what point of corruption does someone become an infinite demon? Blood Elves and many MU orcs are corrupted with a genetic, everlasting fel corruption, but they aren't considered demons. Are Felborne Elves considered the "fully demonic" version of Nightborne, or simply an equivalent to Blood Elves? If fel orcs aren't truly considered "full demons" then what are they? Why wouldn't Gul'dan ever be converted into a full demon if he was an important cog to the Legion's war machine?

I agree with you, we clearly see Socrethar become a full demon and yet his time with using fel and the level at which he uses it pales in comparison to Gul'dan. Gul'dan's skull was enough to turn Illidan into a demon in our timeline aswell so by all logic, that fool was a demon.

[Pandragon]

I think what he's asking is does Archimonde and the Legion we face in WoD know us from our timeline and if so, why the hell are they not fighting all these battles in chronological order. It would make more sense for Archimonde to go from the same battle in time to the same exact one over and over instead of going from Hyjal to another universe and doing a battle 30 years earlier.

The part about the wisps is that why is Archimonde surprised if he's fought Hyjal numerous times, why does he let the ambush happen in so many universes if he has to go from one to the next.

Yes they know, Archimonde sent Gul'dan through timelines to ours to continue their war on us.

It was explained, our Timeline is the original one, the other timelines are behind ours. Also the exact same thing doesn't happen in every one. They have differences. He hasn't done the Hyjal fight multiple times, until another timeline catches up. But that fight most likely won't happen. For example, the timeline in WoD, that fight will never happen because the orcs won't be invading it. They won't unite the alliance, and the alliance will kill themselves, and lose to the second legion invasion. If it happens in that timeline.