ToS doesn't feel like a complete "full" raid.

[Korban]

Pugged first 7 HC bosses of ToS today for the first time.

Encounters are easy and mechanics are not complicated at all. Fights are fast. It doesn't seem like a real raid, rather some filler content like Trial of the Crusader was in the Lick King. The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Did anyone also get such feeling?

I know there's still Mythic to come out, but still...

What you think?

[Kuruption]

Hey gratz.

[DakonBlackblade]

OMG heroic is being cleared with ease by ppl with 915+ ilevel, what a shock!!!!!

[Emerald Archer]

I mean, it's a bit obvious with how the gearing system works, that people will heavily outgear heroic and it'll be a bit faceroll.

But judging content, on its dumbed down version? Mythic is the full fight, the mythic versions of bosses, is what should be judged.

If you can't/won't do mythic, that's on you, but that's where the real fights are.

[Kanael]

Pugged first 7 HC bosses of ToS today for the first time.

Encounters are easy and mechanics are not complicated at all. Fights are fast. It doesn't seem like a real raid, rather some filler content like Trial of the Crusader was in the Lick King. The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Did anyone also get such feeling?

I know there's still Mythic to come out, but still...

What you think?

If I'm not mistaken in a dev interview a few weeks past the raids were tested with people with NO legendaries equipped at all (not counting PTR testing). That's why people are steamrolling them atm.

[RoKPaNda]

I mean, it's a bit obvious with how the gearing system works, that people will heavily outgear heroic and it'll be a bit faceroll.

But judging content, on its dumbed down version? Mythic is the full fight, the mythic versions of bosses, is what should be judged.

If you can't/won't do mythic, that's on you, but that's where the real fights are.

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

[grexly75]

As others have said wait till Mythic comes out, before complaining about how hard or easy a raid is.. The other thing is you are talking about a full raid, if you are talking about the amount of bosses there have been raids with less (Ruby Sanctum).. If on the other hand you are talking about mechanics well look at some of the raids back in vanilla that were so stupidly simple by today's standards but back then were quite difficult..

[Adoxe]

Just like any other raid then? Anything below Mythic is pointless to talk about in these discussions.

[Nitros14]

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

If you're not satisfied with heroic and find the difficulty too low, do mythic.

Or complain about twenty players being too much despite doing heroic in 30-man groups or something.

[Jakexe]

A new and exciting thread topic. I wonder if you'll have the guts to link armory progress to prove you even did it or instead just show this is another shit post.

[permp]

next week tell me how many myth boss you pugged.

[Mic_128]

The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Well if you're going to compare itt with ToC and ICC, then yeah? ToS isn't the end-of-expansion raid. It is literally a Mid-tier raid. It's between Tier 19 and Tier 21 of the expansion.

[Protean]

Pugged first 7 HC bosses of ToS today for the first time.

Encounters are easy and mechanics are not complicated at all. Fights are fast. It doesn't seem like a real raid, rather some filler content like Trial of the Crusader was in the Lick King. The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Did anyone also get such feeling?

I know there's still Mythic to come out, but still...

What you think?

Prove it, link your armory.

[clevin]

I mean, it's a bit obvious with how the gearing system works, that people will heavily outgear heroic and it'll be a bit faceroll.

But judging content, on its dumbed down version? Mythic is the full fight, the mythic versions of bosses, is what should be judged.

If you can't/won't do mythic, that's on you, but that's where the real fights are.

But that's shit tuning. The idea that Mythic is the only raid difficulty that should present a challenge is just poor design.

Raids should be tuned so that if you come out of the prior tier on a given difficulty, then the current raid at the same difficulty should be challenging. Sure, if you out-gear it the raid will be easy i.e. a mythic NH geared raider doing N or H ToS...but if the raid is in Heroic NH gear then the the heroic version of ToS should present a challenge. Tuning should be done assuming, at this point, that every raider has 940 legendaries. Same for normal - if you have mostly Normal NH gear then guess what? Yeah, N ToS should be somewhat of a challenge.

PS: a LOT of this is that PUGs refuse to take people who don't out-gear the raid.

[Korban]

Prove it, link your armory.

I won't link cause i'm concerned for my privacy.

But do you really think it's not possible to pug first 7 bosses? We didn't even know the tactics, read the in game journal before each fight.
Ofc we had wipes. I think it took us about 3+ hrs. Probably could kill more but it was very late so we went to bed.

On the other hand we made a good group, everyone was 910+
Our raid size was 10 man (2 healed it)

[Kagthul]

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

I know, right? This mentality confuses me.

They implemented LFR specifically because they spent such a huge amount of resources on Raids and historically, less than 10-15% (i think, at it's absolute height) of the population ever even saw more than the intro raid in a given xpac... and they could no longer, as a company, justify spending those resources and time crafting stuff that most people literally never saw.

Mythic should be just that.. Mythic. I dont really think Heroic is needed and i thi nk LFR should be a 5-man "Story Mode" that drops Heroic Dungeon (or Mythic + dungeon loot?). The "Normal" raid should be tuned for people. Mythic should be harder, and, sometimes, due to overtuning, maybe even not completable right away.

Otherwise, spending upwards of 40% of your resources developing for 10% or less of the playerbase is stupidity of the highest order.

[Emerald Archer]

For 3% of the population. Woo, the fights are satisfying for 3% of the WoW population. No.

I personally find Heroic to be quite enjoyable, I'm just pointing out that saying that only Mythic matters is pretty silly considering how few people ever actually do Mythic.

Who cares about the people who aren't good enough to do content in its fullest? This is an mmo, it isn't for casual bad players.

What's wrong with content being at its best, for players who are willing to put in the time and effort? Honestly, you guys forget what an mmo is, you're too busy thinking about how you're so entitled to every area of content. It's because of you guys being so entitled to see the content, that heroic and lower can't be that hard.

If you guys were less entitled, the fights could really feel like true fights, and be harder. But then it would go back to being a small percent of players who can see it.

You want difficult fights that a large percent of players can see? It doesn't work like that. Because as soon as the fights are hard, the percent of players doing it, goes down.

- - - Updated - - -

But that's shit tuning. The idea that Mythic is the only raid difficulty that should present a challenge is just poor design.

Raids should be tuned so that if you come out of the prior tier on a given difficulty, then the current raid at the same difficulty should be challenging. Sure, if you out-gear it the raid will be easy i.e. a mythic NH geared raider doing N or H ToS...but if the raid is in Heroic NH gear then the the heroic version of ToS should present a challenge. Tuning should be done assuming, at this point, that every raider has 940 legendaries. Same for normal - if you have mostly Normal NH gear then guess what? Yeah, N ToS should be somewhat of a challenge.

PS: a LOT of this is that PUGs refuse to take people who don't out-gear the raid.

Heroic DOES pose a challenge, for players who are only good enough to do heroic.

Heroic should not pose a challenge for players geared enough for mythic nh / doing mythic nh.

I do agree that heroic ToS should be a little bit harder on some bosses than currently. Avatar being one that I was like "well.. that was easy" But I guess it's a dps check fight.

[kamuimac]

Pugged first 7 HC bosses of ToS today for the first time.

Encounters are easy and mechanics are not complicated at all. Fights are fast. It doesn't seem like a real raid, rather some filler content like Trial of the Crusader was in the Lick King. The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Did anyone also get such feeling?

I know there's still Mythic to come out, but still...

What you think?

shouldnt have farmed those 1000+ mythic for titantforged - if you go with 920 itlv to content tuned for 900 what else where you expecting?

On the other hand we made a good group, everyone was 910+

make 900 itlv pug group without requiiring concordance from everybody and come tell us how "easy" it was while providing logs - i dare you.

- - - Updated - - -

but if the raid is in Heroic NH gear then the the heroic version of ToS should present a challenge. .

and if they did come in hc nh version (890itlv) their pug would break after 3rd boss max - they didnt - they came with gear higher then mythic nh - so your point was ?

[Jastall]

I disagree. Normal was unsatisfying, Heroic was plenty fun. I loved Desolate Host, Mistress and Avatar. Haven't killed KJ yet, but it's a good raid.

I do think it's possibly missing 1 or 2 bosses. Demons that you fight after Goroth, and before Avatar maybe. Something like a dreadlord council or a gigantic imp mother for a glorious padding fight ala Skorp. But not every raid needs to be SoO big to be good, especially if Blizzard is diligent in release the next raid to avoid fatigue.

If nothing else I'm happy that Blizz toned down the number of add fights.

[Volardelis]

Just be thankful it has 9 bosses, originally blizzard planned on having 8. Maiden was sort of a last minute entry

Raids that come in patches tend to be smaller than raids released / contained with the main expansions release (EN and NH for Legion, ToV is basically filler) While some are long, such as SoO, it is mainly due to the lore behind the raid that makes them long.

ToS is basically, put the 5 pillars in their slots, one of which is already done via a dungeon (so you should really include EotN in this) then close the portal that the legion is using. We defeat the fallen Avatar because Kil'jaeden is going to use it as a weapon. The only reason why go after Kil'jaeden is because Velen chased after him, similar to Hodir in the warrior campaign with that random Eredar chick.

Compare it to say Ulduar (because really, Ulduar is the mid expansion raid for wrath, TotC is basically filler same way ToV is, just TotC has a tier attached, even though it shouldn't)

Ulduar is about storming a massive titan complex designed to keep 1 prisoner imprisoned. So we have to storm the gates, get inside the main complex, defeat the keepers and put an end to Yogg-saron. Meanwhile we learn that Yoggs plan B is happening at the same time because we killed Loken in HoL. That is a lot of shit compared to 'put X in Y 5 times and close a portal)