ToS doesn't feel like a complete "full" raid.

[Bowshewicz]

I know, right? This mentality confuses me.

They implemented LFR specifically because they spent such a huge amount of resources on Raids and historically, less than 10-15% (i think, at it's absolute height) of the population ever even saw more than the intro raid in a given xpac... and they could no longer, as a company, justify spending those resources and time crafting stuff that most people literally never saw.

Mythic should be just that.. Mythic. I dont really think Heroic is needed and i thi nk LFR should be a 5-man "Story Mode" that drops Heroic Dungeon (or Mythic + dungeon loot?). The "Normal" raid should be tuned for people. Mythic should be harder, and, sometimes, due to overtuning, maybe even not completable right away.

Otherwise, spending upwards of 40% of your resources developing for 10% or less of the playerbase is stupidity of the highest order.

To be fair, "try it on Mythic" is a perfectly reasonable response to Korban's comment that he found Heroic too easy.

[Deleted]

Titanforging plus the long wait time is kind of to blame here, Nighthold Mythic dropped 900+ item level yet I had 913 having only played Nighthold heroic. Titanforge makes it a lot more difficult to get the tuning of a new raid out as people who play the same difficulty will have a much larger item level range than in previous expansions where most people would be around the same item level.

I'm unable to play Mythic due to the 20-man requirement, so I would personally like to see Heroic tuned a bit higher so that it might provide a bit more of a challenge and last a bit longer.

[Polarthief]

It doesn't seem like a real raid, rather some filler content like Trial of the Crusader was in the Lick King. The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Just want to say horrible example picking the only expansion with 4 "tier" raids. Ulduar was the real "mid tier" raid of that expansion and to date it's the best/most universally loved raid to date.

OT: I actually like the fights and the place a lot better than Nighthold. As big as that place was, that felt more like filler than this has. That said, yes even Heroic is quite easy but what do you expect for a group of iLvl 900-915 players in a raid that drops base 915 gear?

[Deleted]

Just be thankful it has 9 bosses, originally blizzard planned on having 8. Maiden was sort of a last minute entry

I fully expect another mini-raid similar to Trial of Valour before 7.3, ToS for 5 months would not be satisfying...

[Volardelis]

I fully expect another mini-raid similar to Trial of Valour before 7.3, ToS for 5 months would not be satisfying...

In all honestly, since Cath is tied to ToS, I expected Cath to be a mini-raid like ToV or a connected mini raid like ruins of AQ was to Temple of AQ.

Considering the storyline of Cath is the main story arc of ToS. Put pillars into their locks and close the portal.

We only really confront Kil'jaeden because of Velen doing a leeroy.

[BiggestNoob]

That's a really cool story, bro.

[Alvito]

I won't link cause i'm concerned for my privacy.

But do you really think it's not possible to pug first 7 bosses? We didn't even know the tactics, read the in game journal before each fight.
Ofc we had wipes. I think it took us about 3+ hrs. Probably could kill more but it was very late so we went to bed.

On the other hand we made a good group, everyone was 910+
Our raid size was 10 man (2 healed it)

Are pixel bandits going to come after you? Of course you can pug the first 7 bosses, you could pug all of it depending on what fills up your pug.

[Bloodmagix]

It's just Heroic imo even though Heroic probably serves most of the player base. Heroic mechanic wise is also not very different from normal so it's not too difficult, Host, Avatar and KJ have a bit more of a difficulty curve but still a lot of people are pretty geared these days with the WF/TF system so it's not too bad. If people are organised and can communicate Heroic really isn't that difficult. With such a small amount of trash compared to Nighthold though that could also contribute to the "not a full raid" feeling.

Mage | Demon Hunter | Druid

[Lashiec]

Don't know how you can compare this to Trial

[Fonduset]

Quit the game then, you are clearly too good for it!

[EzG]

At the moment there are 114 Kil'jaeden kills. In this same time frame, from Tuesday to Friday including EU even though they have had 3 days, there are 154 Gul'dan kills.

Ignoring confounding variables, which if you think there should be more people active now as people usually drop out within the first tier(s) and trickle back in, there should be more KJ kills. The raid itself shown by the number of kills is harder than NH was. Whether you can pug half of it or not, there is a difficulty curve that happens about halfway in with host and maidens and kj. And statistically it is showing to be a harder raid in general. There are just a few days left before we see how hard this raid really is.

[Deleted]

I won't link cause i'm concerned for my privacy.

But do you really think it's not possible to pug first 7 bosses? We didn't even know the tactics, read the in game journal before each fight.
Ofc we had wipes. I think it took us about 3+ hrs. Probably could kill more but it was very late so we went to bed.

On the other hand we made a good group, everyone was 910+
Our raid size was 10 man (2 healed it)

And why only 7 bosses? The last 2 bosses are the hard ones. Especially KJ is another jump in difficulty.

And raid dropps ilvl 915. So if you enter with 915 geared guys to get 915 ilvl - guess why it is "easy"?

Btw about most pug raids: they mostly don't get above 6/9 NORMAL. What you had was anything but a "pug" obviosuly.

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Don't know how you can compare this to Trial

ToS seems tuned fine yet. ToV was a mess tuning wise, comparing it to the loot we got. Helya was way overtuned for the short time we had. And there was no player power increase, you needed to "try hard" with >100 or 200 attempts. And nerfs came into christmas holidays.

NH was perfect imo, with the 7.2 power increase and nerfs even non top guilds could clear 10/10m, which is absolutely fine.

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I agree.

I unsubbed for ToS but as a heroic raider this was the experience I had in Nighthold. I can't join a mythic raid team because my schedule is too volatile, but clearing heroic Nighthold as a pug took me 3 weeks. So yeah I unsubbed - it's kinda boring that the only content you have the ability to do can be cleared so fast. Also the gear inflation is so crazy that by a month in what challenge there was is totally gone.

The #1 thing they could do to fix the game imo is reduce power inflation by getting rid of legendaries, ap, titanforging, and generally reducing the ability to outgear content so quickly.

You won't outgear mythic. At least not until they add some buffs in 7.3 like they added new traits in 7.2.

[Tatahe]

OMG heroic is being cleared with ease by ppl with 915+ ilevel, what a shock!!!!!

Considering most people will be 930+ in 2-3 weeks, and mythic is that ilvl I guess he's right at saying this tier is a joke.

[kaminaris]

First 6 bosses are faceroll on Heroic, All of them are faceroll on Normal.
Maiden is retardcheck
Avatar is melee retardcheck (suddenly, all melee dies, holy shit, melee have to do mechanics ?!?!)

We haven't killed KJ on heroic yet but splitruns went 2x 8/9H and 1x9/9N so can't really say. But normal KJ was booring enough so i started playing hearthstone.

Overall I would rate this raid as 7/10, its a bit better than NH IMO. Only 2-3 bosses are boring as hell.

[Yuyn]

Considering most people will be 930+ in 2-3 weeks

Saying "most" is overstating it quite a bit. Getting to 930+ will take either solid mythic progression or a significant amount of heroic farming for titanforging.

[h4rr0d]

HC of new raid has always been a joke for mythic raiders. Sure, the skill level of an average mythic raider is probably higher than that of an average wow player, but then again, people who are pugging 7/9 ToS HC could probably be part of a mythic raiding guild, they just don't want to put the time in. This is what you get when you shower everyone with mythic level loot...

[bigfoot1291]

This thread seems strangely similar to the one a couple days ago where it was pretty much the same bullshit in OP's message. Then someone found his armory and despite his claims of "pugging 8/9 heroic", he had actually only cleared 6/9 normal, 0/9 heroic, and 5/10 heroic nighthold.

And this OP doesn't "want to link armory for privacy"

lol yea okay guy.

[Alphatorg]

I agree.

I unsubbed for ToS but as a heroic raider this was the experience I had in Nighthold. I can't join a mythic raid team because my schedule is too volatile, but clearing heroic Nighthold as a pug took me 3 weeks. So yeah I unsubbed - it's kinda boring that the only content you have the ability to do can be cleared so fast. Also the gear inflation is so crazy that by a month in what challenge there was is totally gone.

The #1 thing they could do to fix the game imo is reduce power inflation by getting rid of legendaries, ap, titanforging, and generally reducing the ability to outgear content so quickly.

So they should fundamentally change the game because you don't have the time to raid the proper difficulty? Nice.

The whole idea of hc is to feel easy for halfway decent players with halfway decent gear. That's why it isn't the highest difficulty.

[kamuimac]

I agree.

I unsubbed for ToS but as a heroic raider this was the experience I had in Nighthold. I can't join a mythic raid team because my schedule is too volatile, but clearing heroic Nighthold as a pug took me 3 weeks. So yeah I unsubbed - it's kinda boring that the only content you have the ability to do can be cleared so fast. Also the gear inflation is so crazy that by a month in what challenge there was is totally gone.

The #1 thing they could do to fix the game imo is reduce power inflation by getting rid of legendaries, ap, titanforging, and generally reducing the ability to outgear content so quickly.

thats your own fault - should have done content at appropiate itlv aka NH HC at 870 and ToS HC at 895 and this wouldnt happen

shouldnt have farmed those mythic + so eagerly

its yours and most of posters here fault that they put in thousands of hours into doin hundreds of mythic + and treated alternative to raiding as main source of gearing

its your own fuck up.

next time stop being addict and farming all gear asap.

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HC of new raid has always been a joke for mythic raiders. Sure, the skill level of an average mythic raider is probably higher than that of an average wow player, but then again, people who are pugging 7/9 ToS HC could probably be part of a mythic raiding guild, they just don't want to put the time in. This is what you get when you shower everyone with mythic level loot...

not thats f.. not

thats what you get when you have some people playing the same game for 14 years + - ofc its f... easy for them :/

they would have to be seriusly brain damaged if they found it "hard" after sooooooo many years of doin that.

hell some of them problably have more then a year time played after so many yeears of playing - thats 1/20 or 1/30 of their whole f... life spend in game and they should find it still chalenging after this time ? what a joke.

[Magicpot]

Pugged first 7 HC bosses of ToS today for the first time.

Encounters are easy and mechanics are not complicated at all. Fights are fast. It doesn't seem like a real raid, rather some filler content like Trial of the Crusader was in the Lick King. The mid-tier raid before some real raid.

Did anyone also get such feeling?

I know there's still Mythic to come out, but still...

What you think?

ToS HC is tuned around not everyone having perfect legendaries, not everyone having high concordance, and ~iLvL 900. Ofc you're gonna smash it if you exceed all of that by a large margin.

Btw...

Do KJ. KJ is another magnitude entirely to the rest of the bosses.