Legion - Subtlety discussion

[permp]

My stat weight on raidbots is Agi>versa>master>w/e

Can i trust this?

On riff's guide say that mastery is above versa and on warcraft logs is too soon to look at people gear to see the best status.


I have ATM

93% Mastery
14% versa
26% critical
7% haste

[FenrizZJ]

so cradle of anguish is a terrible trinket. and I got it twice this week.

[Tekkyla]

It's worth to play as Sub without any Legendary/Tier?

[Dikka]

But what about Shadow Dance, should I just be using that as much as possible? There must be some kind of "rules" around this?

my approach:

Simple rule - you should have at least one Shadow Dance available for each Symbols of Death (DfA build or not).

Outside of that rule use Shadow Dance if you are capped or "soon to be capped".
"Soon to be capped" - you have 1(2 with enveloping shadows) charge and ~15 sec CD left on second one and symbols have ~10 sec cd... something like that.

Now few minor things.
1. If it is possible use Shadow Dance twice during symbols.
2. Make sure you are at enough energy for ShD. There is no point to use ShD if you can't squeeze 3 SS into it.

[Jaronicity]

my approach:

Simple rule - you should have at least one Shadow Dance available for each Symbols of Death (DfA build or not).

Outside of that rule use Shadow Dance if you are capped or "soon to be capped".
"Soon to be capped" - you have 1(2 with enveloping shadows) charge and ~15 sec CD left on second one and symbols have ~10 sec cd... something like that.

Now few minor things.
1. If it is possible use Shadow Dance twice during symbols.
2. Make sure you are at enough energy for ShD. There is no point to use ShD if you can't squeeze 3 SS into it.

I'm no mathy dude, but I think you might want to Evisc, SS, SS, Evisc with Dark Shadows.

[Dikka]

I'm no mathy dude, but I think you might want to Evisc, SS, SS, Evisc with Dark Shadows.

I didn't do hard math or sim it...but here is how I think about it in napkin math style.
(and please correct me if I miss something)

Scenario 1 - you enter dance with 6 combopoints, you go Evis->SS->SS->Evis.
Obviously this do more damage. But it also spend 6 combopoints total.

Scenario 2 - you enter dance with 0 combopoints, you go SS->SS->Evis->SS
1Evis+3SS come out of shadow dance with less damage. but also with +3 combopoints. and -40 energy.

Difference is +9 combopoint(or 1.5Evis) and -40 energy(or ~1.12 Backstab).

So we have M(Evis-SS)+1.12Backstab vs 1.5Evis (where M is damage multiplier from shadow dance and dark shadow).
I'm not sure how exactly M is calculated but in both cases(additive or multiplicative) my napkin math gives me
1.5Evis > M(Evis-SS)+1.12Backstab

But again, this is just napkin math...

[shaunika123]

I'm no mathy dude, but I think you might want to Evisc, SS, SS, Evisc with Dark Shadows.

no you dont
30% evis damage isnt worth losing a shadowstrike

[Jaronicity]

no you dont
30% evis damage isnt worth losing a shadowstrike

Then I was mistaken when I thought I saw someone say it in Discord.

[Deleted]

Then I was mistaken when I thought I saw someone say it in Discord.

You where not, i had the same thesis ppl still come up with at the beginning of the month but using evi first gcd of dance is a damage loss.
The math is not assuming the cp generation difrence nor that you basicly exchange 1ss (+akaaris) with 1backstab.
@permp we updated the apl on simc dfa, if you want to do simulations on it use raidbots (or build simc from source)

Next nightly release will have changes in.

[Faildevil]

How big is the difference in theory if I use SD before I press DFA (assuming I don't cap energy)?

[Terahertz]

How big is the difference in theory if I use SD before I press DFA (assuming I don't cap energy)?

You'll lose a GCD worth of damage so it's pretty considerable. Using DFA and using SD just as you land will allow you to DFA > SD > ShStrike > ShSTrike > Eviscerate > ShStrike. Using SD before DFA your rotation will look like this: SD > DFA > ShStrike > ShStrike > Eviscerate

You lose a Shadowstrike worth of damage and combo points which will really hurt your DPS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DFA build isn't the only viable build if you don't want to take the effort to SD after DFA. You can just play the MFD build instead which is also a lot of fun IMO.

[permp]

You'll lose a GCD worth of damage so it's pretty considerable. Using DFA and using SD just as you land will allow you to DFA > SD > ShStrike > ShSTrike > Eviscerate > ShStrike. Using SD before DFA your rotation will look like this: SD > DFA > ShStrike > ShStrike > Eviscerate

You lose a Shadowstrike worth of damage and combo points which will really hurt your DPS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DFA build isn't the only viable build if you don't want to take the effort to SD after DFA. You can just play the MFD build instead which is also a lot of fun IMO.

The problem for me is the latency, i play with 180ms and is pretty hard to activate SD before DfA lands.

[Faildevil]

You'll lose a GCD worth of damage so it's pretty considerable. Using DFA and using SD just as you land will allow you to DFA > SD > ShStrike > ShSTrike > Eviscerate > ShStrike. Using SD before DFA your rotation will look like this: SD > DFA > ShStrike > ShStrike > Eviscerate

You lose a Shadowstrike worth of damage and combo points which will really hurt your DPS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DFA build isn't the only viable build if you don't want to take the effort to SD after DFA. You can just play the MFD build instead which is also a lot of fun IMO.

TY! So the difference comes down to 900k (difference from a shadowstrike of my last log and a backstab) plus one CP.
Wow, the difference is indeed not small. That would sum up to around 15.000.000-20.000.000 dmg in a 5 min fight.

[Kortiah]

How big is the difference in theory if I use SD before I press DFA (assuming I don't cap energy)?

Also depends on the numbers of adds your initial DfA hit will hit. It'll be buffed by MoS+Dark Shadow.

By ShD'ing before DfA, you lose a GCD, so basically a Shadowstrike+Akaari worth of damage.

So if your average Shadowstrike+Akaari is worth less than 40% (what you gain with MoS+Dark Shadow due to ShD) of your average DfA*number of adds, you can ShD before.

(My feelcraft says you'd need at least 3 to 4 adds)

[Kaluna]

You'll lose a GCD worth of damage so it's pretty considerable. Using DFA and using SD just as you land will allow you to DFA > SD > ShStrike > ShSTrike > Eviscerate > ShStrike. Using SD before DFA your rotation will look like this: SD > DFA > ShStrike > ShStrike > Eviscerate

You lose a Shadowstrike worth of damage and combo points which will really hurt your DPS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DFA build isn't the only viable build if you don't want to take the effort to SD after DFA. You can just play the MFD build instead which is also a lot of fun IMO.

Can you explain me why all top logs are doing SoD before DfA then ?

[Deleted]

Guys, im very new but I have to add this...(it would annoy me a lot if im correct with my limited knowledge):

SoD is outside GCD. Why is this talk about GCD? You can macro SoD to DFA and done. Seriously.

[satori sartori]

How big are the leg shoulders?
Are they mandatory for sub?

[Deldavala]

Guys, im very new but I have to add this...(it would annoy me a lot if im correct with my limited knowledge):

SoD is outside GCD. Why is this talk about GCD? You can macro SoD to DFA and done. Seriously.

Its the casting animation of DfA. It tosses you up in the air and then you land and do the +50% Evis, if you SoD before DfA then you loose a GCD while in the air.

[Deleted]

Guys, im very new but I have to add this...(it would annoy me a lot if im correct with my limited knowledge):

SoD is outside GCD. Why is this talk about GCD? You can macro SoD to DFA and done. Seriously.

Its the casting animation of DfA. It tosses you up in the air and then you land and do the +50% Evis, if you SoD before DfA then you loose a GCD while in the air.

SoD = Symbols of Death, you can macro it with DfA without a doubt.

What people are actually talking about here is ShD = Shadow Dance, so dont mix up things.

SoD can be macroed with DfA and ShD should be used right before you land during your DfA nnimation as mentioned here already.

- - - Updated - - -

How big are the leg shoulders?
Are they mandatory for sub?

Shoulders are pretty much your best in slot legendary in any rogue spec. They are not mandatory, none of the legys are , you can also play whatever you have, but if you wanna compete amongst top rogues or play at maximum, then you'll need shoulders, yes. Its not like Satyr's once used to be "mandatory" to get a smooth rotation.

Otherwise in which context is your question at all? As i said, shoulders are best in slot in either spec, so if you consider to change your spec, you should also consider other legendaries and compare. E.g. my main is Sin, 922 item lvl, i got shoulders but no bracers with Sub so Sin still performs better than Sub for me. If i get bracers with Sub, Sub will pull ahead and i will change the spec.

[Terahertz]

Can you explain me why all top logs are doing SoD before DfA then ?

No clue. I imagine it's because with the DFA build you're often very energy starved and you don't want to delay your DFA/SoD for another 3-4 seconds waiting for energy.

I've also noticed I get very close to energy capping if I SoD as DFA lands.

A full DFA combo with SoD at end looks like this:

Reach 6 CP > wait 2.5 sec for 25 energy > DFA > 0 energy > DFA animation (1.5 sec=15 energy) > 15 energy > DFA lands + SoD (36+40 energy) > 15+36+40=91 energy

A full DFA combo with SoD before DFA looks like this:

Reach 6 CP > wait 1 sec for GCD > 10 energy (energy regened during GCD) > SoD > 50 energy > DFA > 25 energy > DFA animation > 40 energy > DFA lands > 76 energy

Plus after DFA lands you only really have 4 more GCDs of worthwhile damage left anyways (SoD > DFA > SDance > ShStrike > ShStrike > Evisc > ShStrike) since damage outside of SDance isn't that important.