Sub DPS help needed. (logs)

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

Only my 2nd week raiding on Rogue (just switched from prot pally) and my parses and dps are awful.

I'd love some genuine feedback on things I can do to improve please.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2Z6L8bhrKVAnHBj1/

[Seliar]

Hey guys,

Only my 2nd week raiding on Rogue (just switched from prot pally) and my parses and dps are awful.

I'd love some genuine feedback on things I can do to improve please.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2Z6L8bhrKVAnHBj1/

A quick look on your logs tells me that you let nightblade fall off way to often and you waste tons of energy and cp.
You don't use SoD and Goremaw on cd.

[Deleted]

A quick look on your logs tells me that you let nightblade fall off way to often and you waste tons of energy and cp.
You don't use SoD and Goremaw on cd.

you dont use goremaws on cd

@rozza88

try aethysrotation it works well with mfd.

[Seliar]

you dont use goremaws on cd

Yeah, but you definitely use more than twice on a 4:30 long fight.

[Deleted]

So you´ve been playing sub for a couple weeks and expect really high numbers? There is also a sub thread, no need to open a new one.

The only answer looking at your logs is "read guides practice more".

Infracted.

[ScrubRouge]

So you´ve been playing sub for a couple weeks and expect really high numbers? There is also a sub thread, no need to open a new one.

The only answer looking at your logs is "read guides practice more".

Infracted.

funny enough I only switched 1 week before ToS came out and I still Parsed at 95%+.... You can expect high numbers if you pay attention to the Rogue discord and watch what the APL are......
But its true. If you don't read guides, you wont get better fast....

- - - Updated - - -

so.... if you care about "high" parses, then you are playing the wrong talent. the DFA build is the best build in all fights as Subt for ToS. The "sims" might suggest MFD to be better but it just doesnt work like that.
Nightblade uptime.... you can't let that drop if you are dpsing the target.

Looking at your dmg break down, your Shadowstrike dmg / cast is very low. SS should be 2nd in dmg after evis then NB and then Backstab. You have backstab as 2nd highest and SS as 4th..... make sure you are being effective during your dance. Have the correct energy so you can Evis SS SS Evis or SS Evis SS SS. Generally you dont cast MFD during dance, but instead you want to use MFD during SoD. MFD is there to give you a higher uptime of Dances. Since its not a DFA build, the evis doesnt hit that hard so Evis during dance isn't the be all end all. but its important that you do fit as many SS during it.

Honestly.... Just read a guide. Riff's guide has both MFD and DFA build guides. Type in "Riff's guide wow" and you should fine it.

[T18Z]

funny enough I only switched 1 week before ToS came out and I still Parsed at 95%+.... You can expect high numbers if you pay attention to the Rogue discord and watch what the APL are......
But its true. If you don't read guides, you wont get better fast....

- - - Updated - - -

so.... if you care about "high" parses, then you are playing the wrong talent. the DFA build is the best build in all fights as Subt for ToS. The "sims" might suggest MFD to be better but it just doesnt work like that.
Nightblade uptime.... you can't let that drop if you are dpsing the target.

Looking at your dmg break down, your Shadowstrike dmg / cast is very low. SS should be 2nd in dmg after evis then NB and then Backstab. You have backstab as 2nd highest and SS as 4th..... make sure you are being effective during your dance. Have the correct energy so you can Evis SS SS Evis or SS Evis SS SS. Generally you dont cast MFD during dance, but instead you want to use MFD during SoD. MFD is there to give you a higher uptime of Dances. Since its not a DFA build, the evis doesnt hit that hard so Evis during dance isn't the be all end all. but its important that you do fit as many SS during it.

Honestly.... Just read a guide. Riff's guide has both MFD and DFA build guides. Type in "Riff's guide wow" and you should fine it.

Sounds neat, but have any evidence that shows the DFA build being better than MFD in pure single target? I mean it's cool to say such things, but without proof it falls on deaf ears.

[Firatha]

Sounds neat, but have any evidence that shows the DFA build being better than MFD in pure single target? I mean it's cool to say such things, but without proof it falls on deaf ears.

Go look at Logs everything is DFA

[T18Z]

Go look at Logs everything is DFA

Thanks, but that's not the kind of evidence I was expecting. Can you explain what is incorrect in the MFD or DFA APL? Or what the sims are doing incorrectly to portray a higher ST with MFD builds?

Looking at logs gives a picture, but only a part of it. Ever considered that DFA is used so much because its better for AOE, has been the spec of choice since release, is probabĺy what most people are comfortable with by now and is arguably the most fun build to use?

People were running shadow focus at the start just because everyone did, remember? Untill sims put nightstalker ahead.

I just like clarification when statements are made, it helps to educate the community if people are able to explain why. I can't, hoping you can.

[ScrubRouge]

Thanks, but that's not the kind of evidence I was expecting. Can you explain what is incorrect in the MFD or DFA APL? Or what the sims are doing incorrectly to portray a higher ST with MFD builds?

Looking at logs gives a picture, but only a part of it. Ever considered that DFA is used so much because its better for AOE, has been the spec of choice since release, is probabĺy what most people are comfortable with by now and is arguably the most fun build to use?

People were running shadow focus at the start just because everyone did, remember? Untill sims put nightstalker ahead.

I just like clarification when statements are made, it helps to educate the community if people are able to explain why. I can't, hoping you can.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/13#class=Rogue
Logs logs logs

But sure, want to know why the people who run MFD are worse off than DFA? becuase you can never have 100% uptime on a boss. DFA allows of movements and down time to let CD's line back up. Since all your dmg comes from your DFA ShD burst window, if say you have to transition and move from location, the downtime of not hitting the boss doesn't matter too much.

p.s. DFA is being used in pure ST fights and crushing MFD. You just end up doing more. If you can play the talent set up, then you will outperform every other rogue spec and class.
And thats for mythic. Not like they are just being lazy and not changing talents around for ST or AOE. its just better.

You can play whatever you want, but if you care about "High" parses, then DFA will do it.
p.s. stuffing up your burst window in DFA is far more punishing. so.... Practice it. People play DFA and can't play for crap on it. Learn the mechanics of Subt, learn the CD timers, get buff/debuff trackers and get something to track shadow technique.

On a side note of shadow technique.... If you want 95%+ parses, you really want to pay attention to shadow technique and use it correctly. Subt isn't spammy, it has a flow it the whole spec. High apm moments and low clam moments.

Hope that was enough reason..... If you need more of a reason why DFA is better, then it seems like you just dont want to play it and thats ok. Play to what you want. not like it actually matters.

- - - Updated - - -

Ever considered that DFA is used so much because its better for AOE.

Also... DFA doesn't do more AoE dmg (well it does a little more.....) but it translate that AoE dmg into pure ST dmg way more than MFD can. Due to Shuriken Combo. That is what makes that spec stand out more in AoE fights. Just incase you thought that it just did more AoE dmg.... the DFA AoE is nice boost but its nothing compared to the Combo 13+mil Evis crit you get off that DFA ShD SoD SSC combo.

[T18Z]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/13#class=Rogue
Logs logs logs

But sure, want to know why the people who run MFD are worse off than DFA? becuase you can never have 100% uptime on a boss. DFA allows of movements and down time to let CD's line back up. Since all your dmg comes from your DFA ShD burst window, if say you have to transition and move from location, the downtime of not hitting the boss doesn't matter too much.

p.s. DFA is being used in pure ST fights and crushing MFD. You just end up doing more. If you can play the talent set up, then you will outperform every other rogue spec and class.
And thats for mythic. Not like they are just being lazy and not changing talents around for ST or AOE. its just better.

You can play whatever you want, but if you care about "High" parses, then DFA will do it.
p.s. stuffing up your burst window in DFA is far more punishing. so.... Practice it. People play DFA and can't play for crap on it. Learn the mechanics of Subt, learn the CD timers, get buff/debuff trackers and get something to track shadow technique.

On a side note of shadow technique.... If you want 95%+ parses, you really want to pay attention to shadow technique and use it correctly. Subt isn't spammy, it has a flow it the whole spec. High apm moments and low clam moments.

Hope that was enough reason..... If you need more of a reason why DFA is better, then it seems like you just dont want to play it and thats ok. Play to what you want. not like it actually matters.

- - - Updated - - -



Also... DFA doesn't do more AoE dmg (well it does a little more.....) but it translate that AoE dmg into pure ST dmg way more than MFD can. Due to Shuriken Combo. That is what makes that spec stand out more in AoE fights. Just incase you thought that it just did more AoE dmg.... the DFA AoE is nice boost but its nothing compared to the Combo 13+mil Evis crit you get off that DFA ShD SoD SSC combo.

So the basis of what your saying revolves around logs, movement, burst windows and following the actions of others. So, what happens when movement is required during the period where you are intending to set up your DFA burst but are unable to? On a fight like Goroth you can have close to a 100% uptime with cloak and cheat death, are you saying on a fight with zero movement MFD will pull ahead? Cause it looks like you're trying to allude to that, but not directly.

I've played both, I don't need a reason to stick to one or the other, nor do I have a "dog" in this fight so to speak, but I do think if someone is going to say "It's just better" they'd have a stronger basis than "look, they're doing it and performing better, it must be better." In my opinion a better way to approach the topic is to illustrate that the parses show one thing, the sims show another, but untill we see a larger selection of MFD logs it's hard to pin-point where the exact problem lies within one overtaking the other. If you're going to say the sims are wrong, that's cool, but can you provide proof on why they are wrong?

For the record, DFA does massively more AoE damage than "a little bit more", we're talking over 10% in some of the top parses and the same trend on lower ones. It's not even comparable to say it does a little bit more. The AoE part coupled with the shoulders and multiple adds can easily go over 7 million on these fights, it's major, and one of the reasons for its selection I'd argue. (refer to my previous point about DFAs popularity on AoE fights)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...e&difficulty=4

Heroic representation, but despite the extremely low number of people playing MFD, many of the parsers are people who use it and rival those who are playing DFA. Hell, one of the guys is 5th on all stars with essentially close to all of his parses as MFD, even on some AoE fights. The guy who is 1st on all stars plays both, but on many fights like Goroth, Sisters and Demonic Inq he is playing MFD and parsing over 95-98% in mythic.

[ScrubRouge]

So the basis of what your saying revolves around logs, movement, burst windows and following the actions of others. So, what happens when movement is required during the period where you are intending to set up your DFA burst but are unable to? On a fight like Goroth you can have close to a 100% uptime with cloak and cheat death, are you saying on a fight with zero movement MFD will pull ahead? Cause it looks like you're trying to allude to that, but not directly.

I've played both, I don't need a reason to stick to one or the other, nor do I have a "dog" in this fight so to speak, but I do think if someone is going to say "It's just better" they'd have a stronger basis than "look, they're doing it and performing better, it must be better." In my opinion a better way to approach the topic is to illustrate that the parses show one thing, the sims show another, but untill we see a larger selection of MFD logs it's hard to pin-point where the exact problem lies within one overtaking the other. If you're going to say the sims are wrong, that's cool, but can you provide proof on why they are wrong?

For the record, DFA does massively more AoE damage than "a little bit more", we're talking over 10% in some of the top parses and the same trend on lower ones. It's not even comparable to say it does a little bit more. The AoE part coupled with the shoulders and multiple adds can easily go over 7 million on these fights, it's major, and one of the reasons for its selection I'd argue. (refer to my previous point about DFAs popularity on AoE fights)

The increase in dmg from the "AoE" fights isn't just from the initial DFA aoe, its from the Shuriken Combo which gives you up to 50% increased Evis Dmg, so you couple that with SoD (25% with 2pc), ShD (30%), Nightstalker (12%), Master of Subtley (10%), Finality (24%) gives you a massive SINGLE TARGET dmg burst. It's not the AoE of the DFA that makes it huge in dps, its that you turn the AoE situation into better ST dmg. Yes it technically does more AoE dmg over MFD due to the DFA aoe portion, but the DFA aoe is around the dmg of 2x Shuriken storm.

It seems like when i try and explain it, it would be easier just to say that the Sims are wrong and DFA should be siming higher..... then maybe you might think that what I am saying isn't just saying "its just better"....

I don't know what you want me to say man. On live DFA just does way more dmg than MFD in single target. The only logical reason that people from the rogue discord community could come up with is the up time on boss. You just sound so adamant to go with what sims highest as the end all be all and wont give my reasons any value...

Just do what you want man... You asked for help. I gave you help. Now you want reasons beyond more than the reasons I have given since you have deemed it not enough..... Have fun with MFD.

[T18Z]

The increase in dmg from the "AoE" fights isn't just from the initial DFA aoe, its from the Shuriken Combo which gives you up to 50% increased Evis Dmg, so you couple that with SoD (25% with 2pc), ShD (30%), Nightstalker (12%), Master of Subtley (10%), Finality (24%) gives you a massive SINGLE TARGET dmg burst. It's not the AoE of the DFA that makes it huge in dps, its that you turn the AoE situation into better ST dmg. Yes it technically does more AoE dmg over MFD due to the DFA aoe portion, but the DFA aoe is around the dmg of 2x Shuriken storm.

It seems like when i try and explain it, it would be easier just to say that the Sims are wrong and DFA should be siming higher..... then maybe you might think that what I am saying isn't just saying "its just better"....

I don't know what you want me to say man. On live DFA just does way more dmg than MFD in single target. The only logical reason that people from the rogue discord community could come up with is the up time on boss. You just sound so adamant to go with what sims highest as the end all be all and wont give my reasons any value...

Just do what you want man... You asked for help. I gave you help. Now you want reasons beyond more than the reasons I have given since you have deemed it not enough..... Have fun with MFD.

I know how DFA works as well as all the multipliers. I was challenging your assertion that DFA does "a little more" AoE damage, you phrased it incorrectly, that's all.

You in plain words have basically said over and over that it's just better, not really giving any true explanation nor evidence outside of mythic parses with an incredibly low partiticipation rate among MFD users. I countered that with links to both heroic and mythic parses which clearly show MFD builds competing in the highest of percentiles, as well as holding top all star rankings in heroic. I also challenged your point about movement, in which on Goroth you can have close to 100% uptime (which you say is one of MFDs limitations).

I think you have me wrong - I don't really want the help, I wanted you to provide a sound explanation, with evidence, either mathmatical or something alike as to why your claim that DFA just does "way more damage" than a MFD build. It's moreso for the people that read these forums looking for answers, information or a discussion of some sort.

In the end I never said follow the sims, nor have I made any claim that MFD is better than DFA or vice versa for pure single target. You made claims, I asked for more evidence besides the generic "look at all the people playing DFA!!", you couldn't provide, neither can I, and that's that.

[Deleted]

....I just wanted help with my logs

[T18Z]

....I just wanted help with my logs

Apologies, I shouldn't have derailed your thread.

[satori sartori]

So you´ve been playing sub for a couple weeks and expect really high numbers? There is also a sub thread, no need to open a new one.

The only answer looking at your logs is "read guides practice more".

Infracted.

why was this infracted?

[Deleted]

Apologies, I shouldn't have derailed your thread.

I was only kidding, man. It was an interesting discussion!

I'm only just getting into rogue and both builds are interesting and appealing. MfD seems more consistent, but DfA is a lot more fun (IMO) but there's a lot more room for error.

[ScrubRouge]

I know how DFA works as well as all the multipliers. I was challenging your assertion that DFA does "a little more" AoE damage, you phrased it incorrectly, that's all.

You in plain words have basically said over and over that it's just better, not really giving any true explanation nor evidence outside of mythic parses with an incredibly low partiticipation rate among MFD users. I countered that with links to both heroic and mythic parses which clearly show MFD builds competing in the highest of percentiles, as well as holding top all star rankings in heroic. I also challenged your point about movement, in which on Goroth you can have close to 100% uptime (which you say is one of MFDs limitations).

I think you have me wrong - I don't really want the help, I wanted you to provide a sound explanation, with evidence, either mathmatical or something alike as to why your claim that DFA just does "way more damage" than a MFD build. It's moreso for the people that read these forums looking for answers, information or a discussion of some sort.

In the end I never said follow the sims, nor have I made any claim that MFD is better than DFA or vice versa for pure single target. You made claims, I asked for more evidence besides the generic "look at all the people playing DFA!!", you couldn't provide, neither can I, and that's that.

Welp, I'll just leave it at that (we are just going in circles and Im sure its partly my fault too). I get what you are saying, and I'm sure you get what I am saying. Clearly I wont be able to provide what you are looking for and that's fine. Anyway have fun playing Subt as will I.