Is Sylvanas truly evil?

[SirCowdog]

Slyv is Waifu for many people

Or maybe it's just that she's a compelling character that isn't just another trope?

She is good shadow character who make wow better. And no because she is good or evil, but because she doing things without stupid cliche like 99% characters in wow.

Exactly! I think too many people underestimate this aspect. So few of the characters in WoW have any depth, so when we have characters like Sylvanus or Garrosh, it should be obvious why people like them. Sylvanus is especially interesting because her motivations aren't "LOLOLOL! I R EVIL RAWR!" or "I am the super-good-guy who always does everything right!"

I think the game needs more characters like that.

[TheFirstOnes]

I don't know who you are trying to fool here. I can't recall you ever actually arguing anything that you were actually informed about even remotely regarding the Forsaken.




show me a single fucking thing you said that was fair or an actual fact? What did you actually know about the forsaken?




You never used it to argue lore in the first place?

I remember a Certain Odyn is evil threat somewhere! Can't remember where. Maybe it was a few pages back!

Not gonna look it up though, since i'm lazy af, like Blizzard during 7.2. So, you should just look that shit up yourself! Go on ahead, post it all, like I care.

Also, what do I actually know about the forsaken? OH MAH LAWD! The forsaken were once apart of Arthas' scourge! However, they rebelled with Sylvanas, against the LK, took over the ruins of lorderon, and reclaimed it as their own! They made the undercity, they went to the Horde cause they thought that they had no place with the Alliance! A few undead betrayed them during Wrath, Varimathras tried to Summon Sargeras at the Undercity! And, with the help of both the Alliance/Horde, he was defeated!

Then, the LK died by Tirion, Sylvanas killed herself, got rezzed by some hippy Val'kyr beings, and did her own BS! Then, the whole Gilneas thing happened, where Garrosh commanded Sylvanas to take over Gilneas! She killed Genn's son by "Accident", ruined half of the city, and cost the Worgen a home!

She also back-mouthed Garrosh, in which he reply'd by calling her a Bitch, and that was pretty much it! In Legion, she helped the Alliance and Horde at the Broken shore. But, for some fucked up reason, she picked up Vol'jin, called up the Val'kyr which aided the Horde, and instead of just Yelling to Varian that they're retreating due to getting over-run by the Legion, SHE JUST LEFT! She then became Warchief, which didn't help that much, cause she then tried to get immortality, by allying with Odyn's nemesis/Our nemesis, while also attempting to beat down our needed allies for their power!

Also, back to the Broken shore, don't excuse yourself, OKAY?! On the alliance side, we could very well fucking hear Sylvanas from the ridge! She wasn't that far away! if her screams are loud enough to break bones, then we can hear her, god damn it! She also had the time to escape, even with a little 3 second warning! She has a horse, no need to just run!

Let's face it, Sylvanas' character was GOOD until past Wrath! Now, idek what her goal is anymore! Immortality? Fighting off against the Legion? Or aiding with our enemies? Either way, she confuses me to no end now!

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Kind of like Alleria! Yeah I said it! Triggered again?

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Or maybe it's just that she's a compelling character that isn't just another trope?



Exactly! I think too many people underestimate this aspect. So few of the characters in WoW have any depth, so when we have characters like Sylvanus or Garrosh, it should be obvious why people like them. Sylvanus is especially interesting because her motivations aren't "LOLOLOL! I R EVIL RAWR!" or "I am the super-good-guy who always does everything right!"

I think the game needs more characters like that.

Right? Cause the DARK AND EDGY FEMALE HUNTRESS ROLE was never played before in ANY trope ever...

Am I right guys?

G...guys?

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WAIT GUYS! I forgot a little detail! She DID beat up a gnome at the Pit of Saron! And she DID Fight the Lich King!

But, not only did she do NO damage to him whatsoever, but she ran with us! Surprisingly, when I did the dungeon for the first time on Wrath, I wanted to see more of her! but nope, we got Tirion, Varian, and her split Emo/Edgy Cata-Legion Personality!

*Claps*

Such very good story telling indeed! Did nothing to her enemy, and beat down an Evil Gnome! *Claps* Good job Sylvanas, have a cookie!

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This is your definition of having a "fair point"?







Sorry, but I don't see the "fair point" anywhere in this. All I see is an overuse of "fuck", "whore", "cunt" etc.



Ah right, we do have one dude I can think of then, surely everyone else must fall under the same category as him.

Uhh! My recent post shows me posting an actual argument!

Cause I used the Lore for it!

Don't call it fan fiction, cause it happened!

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But, my point stands! She ISN'T EVIL!

I just hate her, OH SO MUCH! I hate as much as I hate The Sunweavers back in 5.0-5.2.

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Welp! I think i'm done for today!

When you think of anything else, just tell me swiftly!

[Hell-Nicø]

Define "Evil".

[SirCowdog]

Right? Cause the DARK AND EDGY FEMALE HUNTRESS ROLE was never played before in ANY trope ever...

Sylvanus uses a bow, but that doesn't automatically make her some kind of huntress. She's a ruthless, determined leader who's willing to do anything to ensure the survival of her people. Maybe stop looking at the surface assumptions, and start digging into her actual motivations instead of:

not looking it up, since i'm lazy af.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sylvanas killed herself, got rezzed by some hippy Val'kyr beings, and did her own BS! Then, the whole Gilneas thing happened, where Garrosh commanded Sylvanas to take over Gilneas! She killed Genn's son by "Accident", ruined half of the city, and cost the Worgen a home!

Because they didn't want to be stuck to the lich king.

She killed Genn's son by "Accident"

Have you not even played the Worgen starting zone? he jumped in front of the arrow.

But, for some fucked up reason, she picked up Vol'jin, called up the Val'kyr which aided the Horde, and instead of just Yelling to Varian that they're retreating due to getting over-run by the Legion, SHE JUST LEFT! She then became Warchief, which didn't help that much, cause she then tried to get immortality, by allying with Odyn's nemesis/Our nemesis, while also attempting to beat down our needed allies for their power!

Because her duty was to the horde first. Also warning the Alliance outside of the horn would have done nothing. Unless the Airship would teleport instead of fly there like it had been. The "needed allies" were stuck in the halls. THey didn't.


Also she flat out tells you at the start of the Stormheim campaign she means for hte forsaken's future to be secure, you can debate on that if you want though.

Also, back to the Broken shore, don't excuse yourself, OKAY?! On the alliance side, we could very well fucking hear Sylvanas from the ridge! She wasn't that far away! if her screams are loud enough to break bones, then we can hear her, god damn it! She also had the time to escape, even with a little 3 second warning! She has a horse, no need to just run!

I honestly don't know how to explain to you that a retreat horn was plenty. Staying longer to explain just causes more casualties.

Let's face it, Sylvanas' character was GOOD until past Wrath! Now, idek what her goal is anymore! Immortality? Fighting off against the Legion? Or aiding with our enemies? Either way, she confuses me to no end now!

First one is called an opinion.

idek what her goal is anymore! Immortality? Fighting off against the Legion? Or aiding with our enemies?

all good questions.

*Claps*

Such very good story telling indeed! Did nothing to her enemy, and beat down an Evil Gnome! *Claps* Good job Sylvanas, have a cookie!

This is why you concern people.

She didn't beat the gnome, she was interrogating the gnome who literally was pleading not to die.

also you conveniently forgot to mention she learned the secrets from frostmourne, specifically that he can only be killed at the Frozen throne.


Once again, hating Sylvanas is fine. No one cares if you do. Of course shes going to be evil to the Alliance. She's their biggest enemy on several grounds, especially lordaeron.


but you don't need to make things up to argue that shes evil. Shes obviously evil to the Alliance.

[TheFirstOnes]

While I get that her Broken Shore warning would do nothing, it'd still prevent an Alliance V Horde Conflict! Yes, Genn would somewhat still be pissed, but at least he would know that she warned them!

However, about the Gilneas BS, idc if he jumped into the Arrow or not, she still tried to kill Genn, or at least someone in the Greymane family tree! It doesn't make her innocent, either way!

Also, she was interrogating that gnome, yes! However, whose to say that she didn't the fucker before hand?! The Gnome was a cunt anyway! He pleaded not to die, but still cucked himself either way!

And yes, I did forget about the Frozen throne stuff! But, even then, he was still WAY out of her league! Still would've wanted her to aid us though, along side Jaina! Cause, they ARE in the Artwork! You saw! But, they're not IG! And that kind of SUCKS!

I mean, I HATE Current Sylvanas! You may like, that's fine by you! Either way though, her motives just confuse me, man! At one point she's aiding us at the Broken Shore, the next thing you know is that she's making pacts with our enemies! Now, she's not even in the story, along with Anduin! It's like they both just vanished! Pretty sad about that, honestly! Wanted Sylvanas to actually gain my trust again, by chatting with Varimathras! Now, we're getting even MORE shady shit about her! And.....tbh.....I don't like it!

[TheFirstOnes]

They don't give a shit about the argument.
It's just a way for them to insult other users while the mods let them get away with it.
I keep reporting it over and over but I never see any infractions. No wonder the Lore-section goes to shit.


Perhaps you want to actually address the arguments instead of shitposting and attacking the poster?

Um...

Posting constructively now!

A bit late!

[Friendlyimmolation]

While I get that her Broken Shore warning would do nothing, it'd still prevent an Alliance V Horde Conflict! Yes, Genn would somewhat still be pissed, but at least he would know that she warned them!

it wouldn't have made a difference most likely. Rogers and genn both wanted Sylvanas dead for a while.

However, about the Gilneas BS, idc if he jumped into the Arrow or not, she still tried to kill Genn, or at least someone in the Greymane family tree! It doesn't make her innocent, either way!

no but accident in quotes sounds like you were trying to make it out that it was intentional. She wanted to kill Genn, Liam wasnt the target.

Also, she was interrogating that gnome, yes! However, whose to say that she didn't the fucker before hand?! The Gnome was a cunt anyway! He pleaded not to die, but still cucked himself either way!

what?

the next thing you know is that she's making pacts with our enemies!

Helya wasn't our concrete enemy until she tried to keep us.

! Wanted Sylvanas to actually gain my trust again, by chatting with Varimathras! Now, we're getting even MORE shady shit about her! And.....tbh.....I don't like it!

a Dreadlord that didn't try to sow discord would have his knees broken and sent to the bottom of a lake.

[TheFirstOnes]

it wouldn't have made a difference most likely. Rogers and genn both wanted Sylvanas dead for a while.



no but accident in quotes sounds like you were trying to make it out that it was intentional. She wanted to kill Genn, Liam wasnt the target.



what?




Helya wasn't our concrete enemy until she tried to keep us.





a Dreadlord that didn't try to sow discord would have his knees broken and sent to the bottom of a lake.

I mean, there's 1 thing I don't get:

Sylvanas clearly stated INFRONT OF HELYA that we were her allies!

However, when we tried chatting with Helya! She thought us to be little more than insignificant slaves.

...

Like, wha?

[Aucald]

They don't give a shit about the argument.
It's just a way for them to insult other users while the mods let them get away with it.
I keep reporting it over and over but I never see any infractions. No wonder the Lore-section goes to shit.

An argument, even a badly constructed one or one I personally disagree with, is not itself an infraction-worthy offense. Neither are minor insults or sarcasm - if they were, most of the people on this forum would be either banned or a hair's breadth from being banned at all times. This thread is on the knife's edge of being closed for being thoroughly non-constructive and devolving into a partisan mudslinging match, however.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I mean, there's 1 thing I don't get:

Sylvanas clearly stated INFRONT OF HELYA that we were her allies!

However, when we tried chatting with Helya! She thought us to be little more than insignificant slaves.

...

Like, wha?

Because Helya was an angry person.


A greedy angry person.

[Aucald]

Claiming people only like a character because they are hormonal teenagers that fap to it is not what I would call an argument.
I would actually prefer it if they'd just say that I only like her because I'm a retard, that is less insulting.

And really? /s
I've been semi-absent for a few months and the arguments haven't changed a bit.
The veiled personal attacks are the same too.
No wonder threads are non-constructive: It are the same people repeating the same ingame events and they are being corrected by the exact same people.

It's not a great argument, no. And If anyone claimed that another person liked Sylvanas "just to fap to" that would probably not go over well - it would be (and has been) considered flaming. But to say that people like Sylvanas because they are enamored of her character for aesthetic reasons and not narrative reasons is an okay argument to make - for some people, it may even be true. I'm watching the thread closely and so far, I've not seen anything I feel really crosses the line just yet.

Trying to talk people out of closely-held beliefs, even if they are mistaken, tends to be an unproductive exercise no matter what the nature of the argument is. Many of these arguments reoccur with amazing frequency because neither "side" is going to budge in their beliefs, no matter how many facts, figures, or persuasive lines of debate are employed. It's not an argument that can be "won" because neither side is really listening to the other - they're only launching salvos at one another, and any pretense of hearing the other side is only the for the purposes of picking arguments apart.

[Dagoth Ur]

I really don't understand this need to categorize characters as exclusively good or evil.

What makes Sylvanas interesting in the first place is she's not locked into either of those to extremes.
She's a character that has interesting motivations and is somewhat unique and not just another trope you see in every high fantasy setting.
Characters like that allow for more interesting and compelling stories, and make world and its dynamics interesting.

If WoW was full of Malfurions and Uthers, with who you can write like 2 different types of already 100 times seen stories, where could the story even go?

Even if you dislike Sylvanas, you can't deny that she brings much more variety to the table story wise than most of the other leaders and that's probably why she's more valuable to Blizz and will never be made into straight up villain.

Really hope that Jaina becomes to Alliance, what Sylvanas is to Horde so they snap out of this holier-than-thou attitude and see that nothing is black and white and it's all about from which perspective you look.

[TheFirstOnes]

Because Helya was an angry person.


A greedy angry person.

Makes sense!

[Friendlyimmolation]

Makes sense!

She was a literal hoarder.

[TheFirstOnes]

She was a literal hoarder.

Mm, also makes sense!

There's a special place in Hell for people like Helya!

Oh wait.

[Captain Douchebag]

Uhh! My recent post shows me posting an actual argument!

Cause I used the Lore for it!

Don't call it fan fiction, cause it happened!

Yes, you are capable of actually having an argument based on actual lore (when you're not throwing swear words all over the place), that's not what I'm attacking here.

You claimed to be having a "fair point" every time, and I'm arguing that those three examples I gave you from this very thread, does not even remotely come close to supporting that claim.

If you cooled down just a bit when responding to people, we might actually take you a bit more serious.

If you would just acknowledge that, I would be a happy man.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yes, you are capable of actually having an argument based on actual lore (when you're not throwing swear words all over the place), that's not what I'm attacking here.

You claimed to be having a "fair point" every time, and I'm arguing that those three examples I gave you from this very thread, does not even remotely come close to supporting that claim.

If you cooled down just a bit when responding to people, we might actually take you a bit more serious.

If you would just acknowledge that, I would be a happy man.

Okay....

I acknowledge it!

Now, before I become a happy man! Acknowledge this:

I don't care!

[Zulkhan]

Well, this thread quickly went to shit in the last few pages. Never expected that. /s

With jaina blizzard lacks spine to actually push her character past the line in any direction, essencially making her asshole, but one that sucks at it, in order to be able to be redeemed in any moment should situation called for it.

Pretty much. That's quite the consequence of when you get the brilliant idea of pushing a character from one extreme right to the other. It's like making the journey from one form of one-dimensionality to its exact opposite, even though equally one-dimensional. Still, sometimes her old self pops up again than shifts to some angry-as-fuck woman and so on. There's no bridge for nuances, is just an endless jump from one side of the river to the other.

Strawman. We're not saying she's evil because of that, but it adds to the pile of evidence.

How it serves as evidence of anything if the intent is not evil by basically your own admission?

And Southshore was just a fishing town, not a military base.

Southshore openly supported the efforts in Alterac Valley and covered a strongly strategic position, being a coastal town a few steps far from enemy territory. No one would have cared about levelling Southshore with canisters full of concentrated blight if the place held no importance or threat whatsoever.

Actually... the Plague is one of the most powerful weapon in the game, arguably the most powerful weapon, even more so than the bomb used to level Theramore.

Are you serious? The weapon Garrosh dropped on Theramore was a mana bomb turned into a literal nuke by the insane power boost granted by the Focusing Iris. The blight does not even barely come close to such destructive power, let alone is not a weapon handy to use nor freed of complications and potential collateral damage when the strain is too powerful.

you're arguing that the forsaken should willingly put themselves at further risk. Thats beyond stupid for any armed force to do.

It's like they didn't have to fight a freaking war against Gilneas just in the meanwhile.

Seems like I know more about the word, than you do!

Quite the contrary, you clearly have no idea.

Honestly, i'm just gonna not argue with you Sylvanas fanboys!

My brain cells can only take you much! And, as much as you guys surprise me, it's just getting annoying!

I'm gonna check the ToS Raiding thread! The only thing I care about, other than 7.3 in this game!

As I said, I wouldn't bother!

Can't argue with em!

That's why I made a second thread on the Lore to discuss it! Why? Cause, I don't want my 7.3 Thread getting filled with out of topic Sylvanas hate/love arguments!

At least my Belf thread CAN go non-topic! Why? Cause, when you argue about Sylvanas, it's still belf related.

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.....

Why I even bother with you is beyond me!

Why I even bother with Sylvanas fanboys in general is beyond me.

Why I even bother not ignoring you is beyond me!

Honestly, as much as I hate em, Necroxis isn't wrong about you guys! Welp, can't argue with 13 years now, can I?

Hope you have a fine day sir, and I hope that next time, you can find peace in your life! Cause, defending a rotten piece of meat with the endless goal of Immortality is certainly un-healthy! Good luck to you, mate!

Considered how your usual approach at "arguing" is little more than incoherent shrieking, maybe you will need to do something better if you want people to miss your "contribution". Hey, at least you actually tried in the last two pages. Of that I'm pleased.

All of this said, I wouldn't try so hard to get in Krazy's good graces again. Pretty sure that ship already sailed and you weren't aboard.

I'm done with using common sense!

You can't be done with that if you never began. Well, except "Sylvanas is a whore". That was deep.

Theres that one dude...you know who im talking about.

I don't know if he's valid, considered how he obsesses over anything female in WoW. Jaina, Liadrin, Yrel and of course "Sylvanus"...everything works.

[TheFirstOnes]

QUIET, BOLTON!

A bit fucking late to call me out!