Strength of Horde vs Alliance leaders

[Combatbutler]

She got killed in War Crimes? So now Shokia is more powerful than Jaina, for getting a good snipe? And yes, she is very powerful. Perhaps it's the amount of "screen time" as you could say, that she gets that sets her apart form the others. We've seen what she's capable of while the others, we hardly see any of them doing anything, even in lore.

Just because we hardly see something does not mean it is any less heavy lifting, take Elisande for example, she froze an entire army in time. Something that baffled even the most senior of magi, or the rebuilding half of Silvermoon, it was done almost overnight, while the kirin tor took years to rebuild their city, despite it being much smaller. The most crucial part for any magi is first and foremost knowledge, you can be as powerful as you want to be, but if you know less about magic than your enemy chances are quite good you will lose and the unrivaled masters of the arcane on Azeroth lorewise are still the blue dragons, few and as scattered as they are.

[Aucald]

Jaina's a powerful Mage, there's no doubt of that. I don't really have the same passion for calling who's the most powerful of any given class cause it's both a matter of context and the "power levels" of Warcraft NPC's fluctuates wildly based on what manner of story needs to be told. This is the same set of stories where Sylvanas can go toe-to-toe with the Lich King and survive to escape certain death at one moment and is killed by a well-timed shot by a relatively low-powered and newly risen Forsaken in the form of Lord Godfrey. I would say of the current living Archmagi Khadgar is probably "the most powerful" (mortal, humanoid Mage) based on the sheer versatility and scope of magical acumen he acquired as the Guardian's apprentice. A fireball cause by Khadgar, Jaina, or Rommath likely has the same destructive effect or raw damage as any other high-level Mage; but the scope and breadth of their knowledge affords them more means by which to leverage that power.

Roughly, I'd say Khadgar > Jaina = Rommath > Aethas = Modera = Ansirem > the rest of the lot. Not sure where Karlain fits in as I've not seen any action from him, and Kalec is probably way up there but he's also a former Aspect so kind of unfair to compare him to the mortal, humanoid set of Mages.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I've literally never said she's the strongest mage ever. I've given shout outs repeatedly as to who I think holds the crown. You may think it's ridiculous, but I think the exact same thing of what you're saying

and you base it off the fact that shes in books? You have yet to show anything she can do that no one else could under similar circumstance.

Beats your logic though.

Because saying someone is strong because they are in a book is totally the same as a literal " Strongest arcane attack" being resisted.

Edit: That was rude. Please forgive. I'm trying this new thing where i'm not constantly a cunt to everyone. However I believe it is not working

who cares? It doesn't change the argument.

Isn't that literally your entire argument though?

Because Jaina is in a book , doesnt make her stronger than other mages. We have seen nothing in the books you keep bringing up as a show of strength that differentiates her from other mages.

[mickybrighteyes]

Could you name one besides the Focusing Iris?

Well has she done anythign else? Sat as the Lady of Theramore... not a display of might. Attempted diplomatic arrangements between Horde and Alliance... not a display of might. Somehow not strangled Garrosh or Varian during Wrath? More a display of patience.

I can't really think of anytime Jaina showed some power that was above average except the time she tried to wipe out Orgrimmar. Her stroeis have all been about her emotional/diplomatic ties to other parties and she rides her status as an original named character from the RTS for bonus points in all areas.

Her biggest feat? A nobody from a low level quest in Azshara is doing as a solo objective for some specs. JUST SAYING.

edit:

also you want to compare her to one of the beings who was previously comparable to those among the top powers of the burning legion on what grounds? Cause she went around one shotting players/characters in Dalaran that one time?

Jaina is a character that has shown more skills in debate than combat and somehow lost her most powerful skills as the game developed... Look at broken shore... Jaina's original tool kit was perfectly designed to get out of that mess. MASS TELEPORT and pull your army out.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That's a good way of putting it. It's merely situational. If all mages practised the same magic it'd be far easier to tell who is better. I have to agree with Khadgar being the most powerful. But i'm curious about Azshara herself. Pretty sure the Legion sensed she was incredibly powerful, even to rival their own strength or something. I'm curious if becoming Naga made her stronger or weaker, perhaps we'll see her soon

Mannaroth realized she was stronger than him, and only Archimonde and KJ would prove superior in the knaak book. However since Blizzard hates everything Knaak....

Firstly. What? I'm not even.........I don't understand. I give up. She's stronger.

With the sole argument "Shes in books more"

There still isnt anything shown in game or in the books that outs her to be stronger than Rommath. Blizzard goes out of their way to say shes the strongest female human mage, not even the strongest sorceress.

[Combatbutler]

There's the thing though. I think Jaina is very skilled with her magic, sometimes reckless, but not extremely over the top as other characters such as Genn. I think Jaina is very smart in general, she's seen a lot, knows her enemies and what they're capable of.

Jaina has proven herself time and time again to be capable, that's my point. We see Elisande like twice and she does one brilliant spell. That doesn't make her more powerful

Each magic wielder excels at different things, Khadgar with Arcane, Occuleth with teleportation, Jaina with frost spells, Elisande with time. I still think Khadgar is more powerful than her, but Jaina is definitely not a push over. She'll fuck you up real good

Once again I want examples that truly make Jaina such a powerful mage and set her apart so much from the rest of her top tier mages, because I really know everything she has done in every comic, every book, every game she is in. And I know how the arcane works in the warcraft universe and I am telling you Jaina is very powerful but not the strongest, with that knowledge in mind.

[Aucald]

That's a good way of putting it. It's merely situational. If all mages practised the same magic it'd be far easier to tell who is better. I have to agree with Khadgar being the most powerful. But i'm curious about Azshara herself. Pretty sure the Legion sensed she was incredibly powerful, even to rival their own strength or something. I'm curious if becoming Naga made her stronger or weaker, perhaps we'll see her soon

Azshara would likely beat both Khadgar and Jaina in terms of raw power, but she's also apparently no longer mortal - or at least she's another tier of being altogether thanks to her deal with the Old Gods.

[Combatbutler]

Azshara would likely beat both Khadgar and Jaina in terms of raw power, but she's also apparently no longer mortal - or at least she's another tier of being altogether thanks to her deal with the Old Gods.

The Naga are another unknown factor entirely, there is a good chance there are magi down there, which are superior to most on the surface and recently the ethereals started popping up again.

[Aucald]

Once again I want examples that truly make Jaina such a powerful mage and set her apart so much from the rest of her top tier mages, because I really know everything she has done in every comic, every book, every game she is in. And I know how the arcane works in the warcraft universe and I am telling you Jaina is very powerful but not the strongest.

I recall an instance from the earlier Varian-centric comics where Jaina fireballed one of the Scourge Necropoli out of the sky when it threatened Theramore. That's the strongest feat I actually recall she's done. She also had some training from Aegwynn in more exotic disciplines of magic she'd likely never seen before as a student in Dalaran. Aegywnn herself commented that Jaina was extraordinarily skilled and powerful for a young Mage in "Cycle of Hatred." Entering into a personal duel with the Lich King and surviving is also a singular mark of strength.

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The Naga are another unknown factor entirely, there is a good chance there are magi down there, which are superior to most on the surface and recently the ethereals started popping up again.

That's true, we've got no idea how powerful the Naga can be given their incredibly lifespans and the knowledge they would've already possessed as Night Elven Highborne coupled with the secrets and powers N'Zoth might've bestowed them.

[Combatbutler]

Once again I'm not at all saying she's the strongest. Just more capable than other mages we've come across. Skilled in not just one thing. If you know all about her, why would you not rank her higher than other seasoned mages such as Modera and Rommath? What shows that they alone prove to be on the same level and as skilled as her?

That is the point I don't rank them above each other, because I really can't considering how magic works in the wow universe, if rommath for example was the sole receiver of the sunwells power for a small moment he would wipe the floor with almost anything, the same goes for pretty all magi with equal skill.

The only thing I would rank is the arcane aptitude of the races in general.

[Zulkhan]

Like I said, it's easy to make things fit your own agenda. And yes, he does need to have monumental feats. We're talking about their raw power. Rommath hasn't done anything significant nor has he ever shown to be more powerful than Jaina. He doesn't get as much "lore-time", but I'm basing this off what we know in lore.

Again, Jaina is the best human female mage and Rommath is without a doubt the top dog in arcane affairs among the Thalassians. Her field of excellence is simply way too specific to believe that only Khadgar or freaking Azshara could be above her.

I still have to disagree. Unless there are mages we're unaware of. I don't think any hold a candle to Jaina besides Khadgar and Azshara. Thalyssra could be a good candidate, but I'm not entirely sure of her power in general. She seems very capable of handling herself though. There's just no denying Jaina is extremely capable, taught by one of the best mages the world has ever seen. She's well up there and I think she'd be more than capable to take down any current living mage with the exception of Khadgar/Azshara of course.

Fact is, nothing really made Jaina stand out in a way to deem her an absolute top dog. She has visibility but, again, not otherwordly feats. She's gifted, she's capable and definitely one of the best mages around but there's nothing even barely implying she may compete with arguably the best Blood Elf sorcerer alive. Her poor performance against Thalen says nothing but the exact contrary.

[Combatbutler]

I recall an instance from the earlier Varian-centric comics where Jaina fireballed one of the Scourge Necropoli out of the sky when it threatened Theramore. That's the strongest feat I actually recall she's done. She also had some training from Aegwynn in more exotic disciplines of magic she'd likely never seen before as a student in Dalaran. Aegywnn herself commented that Jaina was extraordinarily skilled and powerful for a young Mage in "Cycle of Hatred."

All true but it doesn't set her that far apart from other magi at the top. The key for magi is understanding of the spellwork, Jaina knew how to destroy that necropolis due to experience during the third war and as such made short work of it and then there is of course the backlash to a spell that powerful, which is often overlooked, using the arcane is quite exhausting after a time.

Entering into a personal duel with the Lich King and surviving is also a singular mark of strength.

Quite true but most magi Arthas cut down had no intention to escape from him.

[mickybrighteyes]

Once again I'm not at all saying she's the strongest. Just more capable than other mages we've come across. Skilled in not just one thing. If you know all about her, why would you not rank her higher than other seasoned mages such as Modera and Rommath? What shows that they alone prove to be on the same level and as skilled as her?

I disagree...

Though to be fair... Modera's time in Dalaran predates Jaina's. Technically, Modera is Jaina's senior mage in Dalaran, but Jaina had better friends (Rhonin, Varian, previously Antonidas). And Rommath is still a head magister in society where everyone is basically a magister. Looking at Jaina's background and story, it's more weird that she's the one who took over if we're going by power... Her claim to fame was what exactly? oh right, Neutrality.

[Combatbutler]

What do you disagree with though? It is curious how Jaina took over, I like to believe it was mostly done because Theramore was destroyed and maybe they knew she needed something to put her energy into or she'd fastly deteriorate into madness Plus she had Kalec and Vereesa vouch for her, after all, Rhonin did sacrifice himself to save her and some others if I remember correctly. I duno

It was a prophecy written by Krasus and mainly Aethas support that got her the job in the end, originally she wanted the be an apprentice again, because she herself said she screwed up royally.

[mickybrighteyes]

What do you disagree with though? It is curious how Jaina took over, I like to believe it was mostly done because Theramore was destroyed and maybe they knew she needed something to put her energy into or she'd fastly deteriorate into madness Plus she had Kalec and Vereesa vouch for her, after all, Rhonin did sacrifice himself to save her and some others if I remember correctly. I duno

That she's more capable than other mages...

her connections can't be doubted in anyway... that's how she's gotten where is afterall. I mean, if you're acquainted with multiple kings/princes, a foreign ruler, are the daughter of a foreign dignitary, and buddy buddy with the powerful elites in the world you'd had better be able to get somewhere.


It's weird that she managed to get one over a senior mage who'd been active in Dalaran longer than her... I bet Modera isn't happy about that.

edit:

also the bold isn't highlighting any ideas about her ability. More like it's hinting that people don't think she's all there.

[mickybrighteyes]

But why isn't she capable?

I didn't say she wasn't capable... I said I see nothing that shows she's MORE capable than other mages. Thus far I've not seen her do anything that any other mage seems just as able to do except get assistance from other plot centered characters.

If you've read all about her, what makes you think she isn't? I mean of course they wouldn't have thought she was all there, her home was just nuked and she watched everyone around her die. She was in a very fragile position and could easily go one way or another.

Jaina built herself up, she has friends now that look after her. It's not like she had everything handed to her lol

I also don't think Modera would've really cared. They seem close

It seems that she WAS in fact handed the position of Archmage of Dalaran, while she in fact was not an archmage but merely a prospective apprentice (not sure how things were playing out anymore... she was an apprentice under Antonidas, but left to Theremore during the scourge events and was returning due to the theremore events?).

Honestly... she's experienced some shit, sure... that's not an example of her power though. Her friends being there for her when she's down is also not a display of her power... Boo hoo, her city got blown up and her friends give her a new city to run? why?

[Deleted]

The alliance has 2 powerhouses in their leadership, the horde has none.

[mickybrighteyes]

Okay but why? You claim to have witnessed EVERYTHING she's ever done, in every game, every book, so i'm just curious

I'm curious... does my avatar resemble Combatbulter's? I'll provide only proof that you're misquoting and puting words in my mouth while restating that I have yet to see Jaina shown doing any feats that suggest she's more capable than other mages. You've done a nice job trying to put her power level on the same stage as guardian level beings, but I can only disagree with that idea. IF anything she's a poorly shown side character that got gifted with the powers of having a NAME

Once again I want examples that truly make Jaina such a powerful mage and set her apart so much from the rest of her top tier mages, because I really know everything she has done in every comic, every book, every game she is in. And I know how the arcane works in the warcraft universe and I am telling you Jaina is very powerful but not the strongest, with that knowledge in mind.

She's experienced things. Yes, that contributes to her power. Knowledge is power man. She says it herself. I never said her friends were a display of her power. I'm just countering your argument that she doesn't work for things. She's a self made woman.

I questioned why she was in charge, someone else said it was because of agreement with prophecy and you said she was backed by two of her friends that you name dropped... clearly 'self made'

Her friends care about her and know if they didn't do anything she'd be consumed by hatred? Why would they not want to help her? She had done nothing wrong. What is your argument? lol

*looks at current Jaina story*


damned if they do, damned if they don't. Hatred won out in the end.

[mickybrighteyes]

"Side character" t

In warcraft 3 she WAS a side character.

She got about as much face as Chen and Samuro.. ok more than Samuro. But yeah an optional hero from a bonus campaign got more play time.

as the the 'believe' line... I believe your idea of self-made is a bit odd.

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"Side character" t

In warcraft 3 she WAS a side character.

She got about as much face as Chen and Samuro.. ok more than Samuro. But yeah an optional hero from a bonus campaign got more play time.

as the the 'believe' line... I believe your idea of self-made is a bit odd.

Can't really get better when people are continuously fucking you over, I mean, can you really blame her?

except the current bout of hatred is still the result from the Theremore bombing that you're suggesting she was supposed to get over by being in charge of Dalaran....

[IgnisVenom]

Sorry if this was mentioned but I'd like to say that the fact that the Arcane isn't all about raw power. Jaina is said to be the best Transmuter (or at least the most notable) and is able to mass teleport an army easily. There is more than one school of Arcane- the fact that Thalen blocked one of Jaina's most powerful attacks simply means that he is better at Abjuration than she is at Evocation. As previously mentioned, Jaina's power lies in Transmutation, so while her pure power is questionable, her utility is really on a high level.