Strength of Horde vs Alliance leaders

[mickybrighteyes]

...What? That's my point?? She tried to turn over a new leaf after Theramore and got betrayed again. How is it such a surprise that she'd go apeshit after it happened again? Lol

as for the double thing... that's what happens sometimes when you edit.

as for this part, the surprise was who she went apeshit on... note that the npc's that didn't return in Legion dal weren't all horde alligned.

[Nathreim]

Until Thrall gets his mojo back and Vol'jin returns as a loa the Horde is gonna have the weaker faction leaders just because Malfurion. Without him though it would be an even fight.

[Wildmoon]

What about Tyrande and Velen? I think Tyrande could easily best Vol'jin. Thrall would be tricky though, considering he's basically jesus now

Thrall even in Cata was notas powerful as people made him out to be. His feats of strenght were impressive but not best out there compared to the rest in the history of WarCraft. His role in the story was just too in your face and annoying. The chosen one plot is hard to do right and Blizzard fuked it up.

[Wildmoon]

It's more the fact that they'll never kill him. Especially since Metzen wants to come back and voice him more. He's basically immortal now haha. Speaking of "in your face and annoying" Khadgar is currently taking up that spot for me. Such an awesome character that has been reduced to cringey memes and me wishing he was killed every time I see him.

Khadgar is fine. He is central but the whole thing is not about him. He is here to guide us with his knowledge which is like the most sensible role. Thrall was the chosen one out of nowhere. We even had to deal with his emo sides.

[Nathreim]

What about Tyrande and Velen? I think Tyrande could easily best Vol'jin. Thrall would be tricky though, considering he's basically jesus now

Tyrande hasn't shown a massive amount of offensive magic certainly not enough to defeat a Loa should Vol'jin become one. Most of the time she uses a bow with limited use of offensive light abilities her real power is healing she is one of the greatest healers around healing even fel poison.

Velen would flat out refuse to be part of any such conflict. Its completely out of his nature and he fears his own power turning him into Kil'jaeden. The Legion is the ONLY foe he would ever go full force against.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Set an ambush of assassins to kill Malfurion and rest assured that he'll die.

It's been done, and he's still alive.

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It's more the fact that they'll never kill him. Especially since Metzen wants to come back and voice him more. He's basically immortal now haha. Speaking of "in your face and annoying" Khadgar is currently taking up that spot for me. Such an awesome character that has been reduced to cringey memes and me wishing he was killed every time I see him.

I agree that Thrall and Khadgar are both good characters suffering from over-exposure. Imho, Thrall should have taken a back seat in WoD to let Vol'jin do more. Vol'jin should have been the one to end Garrosh.

[Aucald]

All true but it doesn't set her that far apart from other magi at the top. The key for magi is understanding of the spellwork, Jaina knew how to destroy that necropolis due to experience during the third war and as such made short work of it and then there is of course the backlash to a spell that powerful, which is often overlooked, using the arcane is quite exhausting after a time.

I don't know - shooting a Necropolis out of the sky with a single spell seems quite powerful, and it's not a feat I've seen many other mages equal with their spells. Whether due to prior knowledge or sheer power behind the spell it's quite impressive and rivaled only by Khadgar combining Arcane, Fire, and Frost to detonate the Iron Horde dam in Tanaan and escaping the ensuing area-wide flood.

Quite true but most magi Arthas cut down had no intention to escape from him.

Or the possibility of escape. Jaina fought the Lich King to a standstill where even such an august archmage as Antonidas (the man who largely taught Jaina) was swiftly cut down by Arthas the Death Knight.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I don't know - shooting a Necropolis out of the sky with a single spell seems quite powerful, and it's not a feat I've seen many other mages equal with their spells. Whether due to prior knowledge or sheer power behind the spell it's quite impressive and rivaled only by Khadgar combining Arcane, Fire, and Frost to detonate the Iron Horde dam in Tanaan and escaping the ensuing area-wide flood.

The problem is that just because we see her do it doesn't mean other mages couldn't.

[Aucald]

The problem is that just because we see her do it doesn't mean other mages couldn't.

That's true, it neither implies or denies anything. Although holding to essential fantasy tropes the threat of the Scourge, or the Legion, would be somewhat lessened if every Mage were capable of such feats. Even the appearance of Legion Dreadnoughts is less threatening if you imagine that any high-level Mage could blow it out of the sky with a single spell. Even if that's all they could do in the short-term. I'm inclined to treat this more as a "cutscene power to the max" type of deal to showcase her relative power than the power level of all Mages anywhere.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That's true, it neither implies or denies anything. Although holding to essential fantasy tropes the threat of the Scourge, or the Legion, would be somewhat lessened if every Mage were capable of such feats. Even the appearance of Legion Dreadnoughts is less threatening if you imagine that any high-level Mage could blow it out of the sky with a single spell. Even if that's all they could do in the short-term. I'm inclined to treat this more as a "cutscene power to the max" type of deal to showcase her relative power than the power level of all Mages anywhere.

well obviously not every mage. But mages that have been practicing magic before she was even born?

[Aucald]

well obviously not every mage. But mages that have been practicing magic before she was even born?

Warcraft has a lot of "born to power" types of tropes - I'd wager that certain people simply have within them an inborn capacity for their chosen class that others, even older and more erudite in the given class, will always lack. Thrall will, for instance, always be a more powerful Shaman than Drek'thar - despite Drek'thar being a Shaman for far longer, and likely knowing far more, just because Thrall has a gift for the art of Shamanism. Jaina too might be in a similar boat, blessed with an abundance of "power" by virtue of her genetics, or by the vagaries of fate, putting her above Mages who have been at it longer like Meryl Winterstorm or Modera.

I would like to think technical skill can trump basic power, personally; and I would like to see more displays of that in Warcraft (personally speaking). I always think duels where one combatant has natural skill but the other has more technical acumen are fascinating displays. It would be akin to Jaina lighting up a powerful Arcane bolt or Fireball, only to have a more experienced Mage like Rommath exploit a flaw in her casting and unweave or alter the spell's nature before it can connect.

[Zulkhan]

What about Tyrande and Velen? I think Tyrande could easily best Vol'jin

If she gets divine interventions sure, otherwise "easily" does not fit. Kind of like Tyrande herself, Vol'jin is a very versatile fighter wielding bows, glaives and magic in equal measure, monk training and troll regen on top of that. And of course, if Vol'jin would ever come back is unknown if he would get a power boost out of it, something likely to happen though to people coming back from the dead.

It's been done, and he's still alive

Vol'jin survived an even more effective attempt at claiming his life yet he's good as dead now. And you know, he belonged to the very race able to compensate the limits of flesh by self-regenerating wounds of any sort.

Matters not how much power you may hold, if you're a meatbag you can die as easily as any other. The only true obstacle when trying to assassinate an important figure is not his personal power but the importance itself, as that will make the figure itself highly protected. That's the exact reason as for why Vol'jin was led into some dark and isolated place in order to kill him (which didn't work anyway but that's besides the point, as the recent Legion events proved Vol'jin to be hard as hell to kill but still far from being unkillable).

[Friendlyimmolation]

Warcraft has a lot of "born to power" types of tropes - I'd wager that certain people simply have within them an inborn capacity for their chosen class that others, even older and more erudite in the given class, will always lack. Thrall will, for instance, always be a more powerful Shaman than Drek'thar - despite Drek'thar being a Shaman for far longer, and likely knowing far more, just because Thrall has a gift for the art of Shamanism. Jaina too might be in a similar boat, blessed with an abundance of "power" by virtue of her genetics, or by the vagaries of fate, putting her above Mages who have been at it longer like Meryl Winterstorm or Modera.

I would like to think technical skill can trump basic power, personally; and I would like to see more displays of that in Warcraft (personally speaking). I always think duels where one combatant has natural skill but the other has more technical acumen are fascinating displays. It would be akin to Jaina lighting up a powerful Arcane bolt or Fireball, only to have a more experienced Mage like Rommath exploit a flaw in her casting and unweave or alter the spell's nature before it can connect.

Thats how I always perceived it, Elves are more refined, Humans brute force it. Its anakin vs Obi wan.

[Wildmoon]

Jaina too might be in a similar boat, blessed with an abundance of "power" by virtue of her genetics, or by the vagaries of fate, putting her above Mages who have been at it longer like Meryl Winterstorm or Modera.

Not sure if she is stronger than Meryl. The dude is not very prominent in the story in general but he is pretty damn powerful. He wrestled with Kathra'Nathir who proved to be extremely powerful for a dreadlord.

[Zulkhan]

Thats how I always perceived it, Elves are more refined, Humans brute force it. Its anakin vs Obi wan.

Pretty much. 100 human noob mages rained freaking hell on the whole army of the Amani empire, yes, but they were also kept away from the battlefield, within a safe space where to do their thing undisturbed while the combined power of human and elven armies basically sacrificed half of their numbers just to grant those mages a comfortable opening.

[Aucald]

Not sure if she is stronger than Meryl. The dude is not very prominent in the story in general but he is pretty damn powerful. He wrestled with Kathra'Nathir who proved to be extremely powerful for a dreadlord.

No idea there either, to be quite honest. Meryl hasn't really done anything as a basis of comparison action-wise - his only feat of magic beyond the norm would be somehow making himself an undead immortal via the Arcane.

[Wildmoon]

No idea there either, to be quite honest. Meryl hasn't really done anything as a basis of comparison action-wise - his only feat of magic beyond the norm would be somehow making himself an undead immortal via the Arcane.

He could remain in control while the dreadlord was inside him for several years. Most demon hunters went insane from weak ass demons bound inside them.

[Aucald]

He could remain in control while the dreadlord was inside him for several years. Most demon hunters went insane from weak ass demons bound inside them.

I don't think Meryl's quasi-possession by Kratha'natir and the Demon Hunters' ritual to gain their abilities and take on substantial Fel taint are quite the same thing - though definitely kudos to Meryl for resisting a Dreadlord for as long as he did. Meryl contained Kratha'natir by his willpower (the same feat that allowed him to assume an undead state via magical assistance), Demon Hunters actually undergo a process that forcibly mutates them into half-demonic beings physiologically as well as spiritually.

[Wildmoon]

I don't think Meryl's quasi-possession by Kratha'natir and the Demon Hunters' ritual to gain their abilities and take on substantial Fel taint are quite the same thing - though definitely kudos to Meryl for resisting a Dreadlord for as long as he did. Meryl contained Kratha'natir by his willpower (the same feat that allowed him to assume an undead state via magical assistance), Demon Hunters actually undergo a process that forcibly mutates them into half-demonic beings physiologically as well as spiritually.

Still the dreadlord was more powerful than most if not all non-guardian mages.

[Combatbutler]

I don't know - shooting a Necropolis out of the sky with a single spell seems quite powerful, and it's not a feat I've seen many other mages equal with their spells. Whether due to prior knowledge or sheer power behind the spell it's quite impressive and rivaled only by Khadgar combining Arcane, Fire, and Frost to detonate the Iron Horde dam in Tanaan and escaping the ensuing area-wide flood.

It is quite powerful, but if a mage is undisturbed they can unleash hell on earth. As mentioned before 100 barely trained magi unleashed a massive firestorm, all because they were not bothered during their casting and they were incredibly lucky to boot, if one of them had screwed up during the incantation the whole thing would have blown up in their face instead.

Or the possibility of escape. Jaina fought the Lich King to a standstill where even such an august archmage as Antonidas (the man who largely taught Jaina) was swiftly cut down by Arthas the Death Knight.

I wouldn't put that much thought to it to be honest, it wasn't really a standstill, because Arthas had been holding back pretty much the entire expansion.