(Possible Spoilers?) Jaina Proudmoore Betrays The Alliance?

[Deleted]

These "Jania (and for that matter, Sylvanas) will be a raid boss!" theories amuse me.

Here's my take.

Just as Kadgar has been the dude driving the whole anti-Legion plot the last few years, Jania is going to be driving the anti-Void Lords plot for the next few years.

She's not off plotting the downfall of us all, she's off visiting home and uncovering Old God corruption. She'll beg for all our help to thwart a massive Naga invasion of Kul Tiras, and we'll all be best buds again. Horde sort-of-forgiven.

Azshara will likely be the Garrosh-style big bad next expansion, with her buddy N'zoth. N'zoth as a character will be too weirdy to be the big bad, so he'll get a mid-expansion raid tier - but Azshara will be "standard villain" enough to be the final expansion boss.

As for the 3 Windrunner sisters, there's a bit of family drama to be had there. Horde has Sylvanas, Alliance has Vereesa, and Alleria "The Void Dabbler" will, in my opinion, be the new Gul'dan, as some sort of Void Lord Champion arching over two or three expansions. This family drama will be the driving force behind Horde/Alliance tensions, with Alleria deceiving both sides and pitting htem against each other.

The "She" referred to by Varimathras is either going to be Azshara, or Alleria. I reckon so, because both characters have experienced thousands of years of being patient. Most likely, it'll Alleria as she's better placed to "plant the seeds" that lead to betrayal.

Speculating is fun!

/tinfoil hat.

Ok that's all nice, but if you want Jaina as the "leader" against the Void, she must also accept again the Horde, unless Blizzard is planning to give every Horde member a faction change.

We need a "neutral" leader if we are going again with the "kill the big bad villain that will destroy our world" plot, and Jaina is very very very far off being neutral.

[Mehrunes]

Oh heres comes the horde dumbassary again. All cause she said dismantle. If you ever dismantle something be careful, it means you are bat s**t crazy! Horde logic! If you like legos you are already long gone and planning to destroy the world! xD

Yeah, cause that's the only problematic part of Jaina's portrayal. You beat the shit out of that straw-man.

Anyways here we are:

So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late.

Varimathras lines are all related to Sylvanas (OBVIOUSLY! Cause he hardly ever met Jaina or Azshara!). Sylvanas is the one that will betray, just like it happened in the broken shore. Is it even surprising?!

Does not meeting them prevent him from having knowledge about them? And you talk about logic lel. And there was no betrayal at the Broken Shore no matter how you and your brethren whine about it.

Jaina has NO reason to betray the alliance. No one did her any harm in the alliance. Her hate is towards the horde and is justified. She is NOT bat shit crazy. She didn't even say "kill the horde", she said "dismantle". She is actually still very generous despite what was done to her.

Yeah, because Varian didn't go for the peace to avoid further bloodshed or anything. The Horde would just roll over and accept Alliance's demands despite allying with them against Garrosh. Alliance doing anything against the Darkspear rebellion there would be an actual betrayal by the way. Since you clearly need examples to help you comprehend the concept.

[Every Pwny]

I always find it amusing when people use Jaina as an example for a strong female character in warcraft, considering she is literally the biggest stereotype going, mood swings, completely irrational, permanent PMT, it's ironic as hell

Yeah, whenever women show negative emotions they are just "PMT(s)ing". It's pretty funny how people get triggered whenever a woman has a negative reaction to something, but literally all the male characters get angry when bad things happen to them as well, but it's fine they are compelling characters, a female gets angry? They are a bitch, or they are irrational or psychos. Forget all the bad things that have happened to her over the course of the last few expansions, just is just a crazy woman!

It's not just you, you see this kind of thing all over when people are describing female characters, just look at the comments of people reacting to the Tyrande cover calling her a bitch, people judge females who react to things that happen to them extremely harshly, but it's fine for male characters. Just because you don't like a character that happens to be a female, doesn't make them a PMSing "stereotypical" (whatever you think stereotypical is for a woman, acting crazy?) woman.

[Deleted]

Ok that's all nice, but if you want Jaina as the "leader" against the Void, she must also accept again the Horde, unless Blizzard is planning to give every Horde member a faction change.

We need a "neutral" leader if we are going again with the "kill the big bad villain that will destroy our world" plot, and Jaina is very very very far off being neutral.

We're going to stop her home being wiped out by the Naga, starting the healing process. I can imagine that at the start of the next expansion, the Windrunners are going to be all chummy, and maybe Vereesa will help convince Jania that Sylvanas, as leader of the Horde, can be trusted.

Trust me, it'll work out

[faithbane]

Listen people for the last time Jaina is not ever gonna betray the alliance she just went to a place to think that would be where her father and the kul tiras is.

Where should I go to think about genocide and killing all the horde and stuff...hmm, I know! Where I helped the horde murder my father, because of his bloodthirsty warmongering, ignorant and stubborn attitude and prejudice against the horde

[Deleted]

Yeah ofc! Your life long enemy will betray you! It makes totally sense! Maybe Varimathras is the new Cpt. Obvious......

And you really want us to list the thing why Jaina shuold betray, or at leats be pissed at the Alliance? I think it shuold suffice that 90% of Alliance leaders are against her, but hey what do i know!

You are incorrect. No Alliance leaders are "against" her.
She didn't want to work together with the horde. The others thought they should. No one is declaring war on her.

Also, to the guy that said "derp she is a long enemy how would she betray us?". Well, because currently horde and alliance are allied again. She will betray in the same sense Garrosh betrayed. How would Varimathras even know anything about Jaina and her situation? The desperation is hilarious! xD

[apelsinjuice]

would not suprise me, its time for alliance raid boss now just like garrosh. Jaina will be endboss raid for either next expansion or one of the raids.

[Zulkhan]

Yeah, whenever women show negative emotions they are just "PMT(s)ing". It's pretty funny how people get triggered whenever a woman has a negative reaction to something, but literally all the male characters get angry when bad things happen to them as well, but it's fine they are compelling characters, a female gets angry? They are a bitch, or they are irrational or psychos. Forget all the bad things that have happened to her over the course of the last few expansions, just is just a crazy woman!

It's not just you, you see this kind of thing all over when people are describing female characters, just look at the comments of people reacting to the Tyrande cover calling her a bitch, people judge females who react to things that happen to them extremely harshly, but it's fine for male characters. Just because you don't like a character that happens to be a female, doesn't make them a PMSing "stereotypical" (whatever you think stereotypical is for a woman, acting crazy?) woman.

I'm indeed of the opinion that Jaina is kind of a mess but I would avoid to focus on her gender rather than the character itself.

Also, to the guy that said "derp she is a long enemy how would she betray us?". Well, because currently horde and alliance are allied again. She will betray in the same sense Garrosh betrayed.

There's no existing "sense" of the word betrayal fitting what you're saying. Garrosh did many things but he never "betrayed" the Alliance. It's like implying the Alliance had faith and trust in Garrosh's good heart and his actions "betrayed" them. That's definitely not the case. The Alliance knew Garrosh was waging a war against them with the ultimate intent of dismantling the faction and raise the Horde as ruling power of Azeroth. Garrosh couldn't "betray" a trust that was never there in the first place.

This twisting of yours is, once again, nothing but a god awful usage of the word betrayal where it doesn't fit. Now, I'm not here saying Jaina herself will betray anything (I don't care either way) but there's no denying that "betrayal" is meant towards someone within the Alliance. Someone betraying its trust. The bit about the throne running red with betrayal kinda suggests a backstabbing of sort, in fact. Even assuming Sylvanas would be involved in some way, it's pretty obvious that the betrayal would come from an Alliance figure.

[Deleted]

I'm indeed of the opinion that Jaina is kind of a mess but I would avoid to focus on her gender rather than the character itself.



There's no exisiting "sense" of the word betrayal fitting what you're saying. Garrosh did many things but he never "betrayed" the Alliance. It's like implying the Alliance had faith and trust in Garrosh's good heart and his actions "betrayed" them. That's definitely not the case. The Alliance knew Garrosh was waging a war against them with the ultimate intent of dismantling the faction and raise the Horde as ruling power of Azeroth. Garrosh couldn't "betray" a trust that was never there in the first place.

This twisting of yours is, once again, nothing but a god awful usage of the word betrayal where it doesn't fit. Now, I'm not here saying Jaina herself will betray anything (I don't care either way) but there's no denying that "betrayal" is meant towards someone within the Alliance. Someone betraying its trust. The bit about the throne running red with betrayal kinda suggests a backstabbing of sort, in fact. Even assuming Sylvanas would be involved in some way, it's pretty obvious that the betrayal would come from an Alliance figure.

Ah yes, your colorful definition of "dismantle". Dismantle is not "kill everyone and burn everything". That is what Garrosh wanted to do.

Dismantle is to undo their fortifications, weapons and prevent the factions from working together. More like martial law. Very different from what Garrosh was doing.

You can't sell that horde paranoia that dismantle means killing everyone. That is what you want it to mean to justify your extremist position.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Ah yes, your colorful definition of "dismantle". Dismantle is not "kill everyone and burn everything". That is what Garrosh wanted to do.

Dismantle is to undo their fortifications, weapons and prevent the factions from working together. More like martial law. Very different from what Garrosh was doing.

You can't sell that horde paranoia that dismantle means killing everyone. That is what you want it to mean to justify your extremist position.

What ever you want to call it, there is the simple truth that the Horde wouldn't go along with it, And the war would go on for years.

[Evangeliste]

I'm not sure how that's relevant to what you quoted. And her portrayal after War Crimes is once again more antagonistic.

It was because he was being sexist - that all women act like Jaina. That they get hissy and such, despite even in World of Warcraft not every female resorts to that and males neither. Garrosh was used as a completely stupid stereotype to hallmark men as because he is simply ridiculous as much as the original statement made was.

- - - Updated - - -

What retcon are you talking about?

Things like Broken/Krokul being misplaced is one of the current upsets. For now, it will be a confusion considering things like the Red Pox. But the point prior to someone trying to be edgy was that all women act like Jaina - hissy fitting and bitchy. Though there will be errors in crossing medium, which is sad but can happen still. The story doesn't really get a chance to stop.
On a side note, will she be in the third Chronicle? I saw that it's about character backstories but I must admit, I couldn't see anywhere to that had a synopsis.

- - - Updated - - -

You are incorrect. No Alliance leaders are "against" her.
She didn't want to work together with the horde. The others thought they should. No one is declaring war on her.

Also, to the guy that said "derp she is a long enemy how would she betray us?". Well, because currently horde and alliance are allied again. She will betray in the same sense Garrosh betrayed. How would Varimathras even know anything about Jaina and her situation? The desperation is hilarious! xD

This is where I wonder how Algalon fits in this since the game went on... He did say he would report his findings to the Titans. Where did he go? And where did that reply code go to?

[Dartz1979]

Ya know what I'm done with these threads you all believe what you want i'm just not gonna do the content if it ever comes to killing jaina. #nokillingjainaproudmoore #Jainaisthebest #JainasavesAzeroth

[Aucald]

I don't think Jaina's inconsistency has anything to do with her being a woman (it is likely more due to inconsistent writing) just as I don't feel Garrosh's desire for war and bloodshed has anything to do with him being male. In-universe Jaina Proudmoore is a person who has suffered a major psychological trauma that the war-torn nature of her world hasn't yet afforded her the time or the space to deal with properly. That her personality would be compromised and her stability disrupted shouldn't really be surprising - it doesn't have anything to do with her moodiness or hormones. If anyone had witnessed the violent deaths of multiple friends and loved ones in practically an instant they would also walk away from the incident with some understandable psychological scarring. Immediately following the aftermath of that event Jaina was thrust right back into the reins of leadership and its accompanying vagaries - first of the Kirin Tor, then as part of the Iron Horde vanguard and offensive, and finally the Legion invasion.

Garrosh on the other hand is driven both to prove that the Hellscream (and by extension the Orcish) legacy is not actually tainted by the actions of his father by redefining his legacy as freeing the Orcs from demonic servitude as opposed to being the one who was first in line to sell their souls to the Legion, as well as proving that the Orcs are not in need of penance to the peoples of both Draenor and Azeroth. Initially he sought to do this by a show of Orcish strength tempered with honor - proving that the Horde were the superior people of Azeroth by right of honorable conquest. But as time went on and his advisers (and a large contingent of the Horde) turned against his rather narrow vision of what the Horde was (the strong, then the loyal, and finally just his own Orcish inner circle), his methods grew more and more severe as he simultaneously encircled himself with new advisers that insulated him from needed criticism. Trafficking in the power of the Old God was probably also not good for him, even though he did not fully succumb to their corrupting influences.

[Makorus]

Consider the following:

Jaina must have planned that stuff since Wrath then, considering Varimathras is probably getting punished since the Siege of Undercity, and I genuinely genuinely doubt that they would feed news on current politics to a torture victim.

[Mehrunes]

Yeah, whenever women show negative emotions they are just "PMT(s)ing". It's pretty funny how people get triggered whenever a woman has a negative reaction to something, but literally all the male characters get angry when bad things happen to them as well, but it's fine they are compelling characters, a female gets angry? They are a bitch, or they are irrational or psychos. Forget all the bad things that have happened to her over the course of the last few expansions, just is just a crazy woman!

Jaina doesn't just act angry. She acts like an emotional yo-yo. Not the only character in WoW that has this trait, and not all of them are female. A male example would be Taran'zhu. Also, Baine never really gets angry. Hell, he was looking for a way to understand and excuse the Alliance in context of the destruction of Taurajo.

It's not just you, you see this kind of thing all over when people are describing female characters, just look at the comments of people reacting to the Tyrande cover calling her a bitch, people judge females who react to things that happen to them extremely harshly, but it's fine for male characters. Just because you don't like a character that happens to be a female, doesn't make them a PMSing "stereotypical" (whatever you think stereotypical is for a woman, acting crazy?) woman.

And then look at the comments about Rogers, who's the most hateful female character in WoW. Oh...

It was because he was being sexist - that all women act like Jaina. That they get hissy and such, despite even in World of Warcraft not every female resorts to that and males neither. Garrosh was used as a completely stupid stereotype to hallmark men as because he is simply ridiculous as much as the original statement made was.

Except they didn't. They said that she acts like a stereotypical woman. Saying that a character embodies some stereotype doesn't mean that the stereotype is real or that all people sharing the trait of the character (in this case, sex) are also stereotypical or act like the stereotypical character in question. If, for example, Budd Nedreck was a sovereign citizen fucking his sister and complaining that Orcs terk his jerb, he'd be a stereotypical US southerner. But it wouldn't mean all people in Texas fuck their sisters, think the federal law does not apply to them or have no jobs and blame Mexicans for that fact. Kinda the nature of stereotypes.

Also, to the guy that said "derp she is a long enemy how would she betray us?".

Well, because currently horde and alliance are allied again.

Look at all that alliance after Genn attacked the Horde.

She will betray in the same sense Garrosh betrayed.

Ah, this is a fascinating twist. Go on, how did Garrosh betray the Alliance.

How would Varimathras even know anything about Jaina and her situation? The desperation is hilarious! xD

And yet he knew about Sylvanas' situation after his capture (i.e. her becoming Warchief). Your selective presentation of the situation is the true desperation here. xD xD

Ah yes, your colorful definition of "dismantle". Dismantle is not "kill everyone and burn everything". That is what Garrosh wanted to do.

Dismantle is to undo their fortifications, weapons and prevent the factions from working together. More like martial law. Very different from what Garrosh was doing.

Do engage that brilliant mind of yours some more and try to answer this question: how do you carry out the dismantling against people who would oppose it?

[Zulkhan]

Ah yes, your colorful definition of "dismantle". Dismantle is not "kill everyone and burn everything". That is what Garrosh wanted to do.

Just change it into "dismantling" and I would have loved to see the Horde leaders singing this to Jaina.

Dismantle is to undo their fortifications, weapons and prevent the factions from working together. More like martial law. Very different from what Garrosh was doing.

That's all good and dandy, too bad that to achieve all those things through brute force you have to kill. You have to SUBMIT the rival faction. You ain't going to achieve that by asking it nicely. Hell, the mere saying that you're going to dismantle something directly implies you would go and systematically tear that thing apart. There's absolutely no room for diplomatic routes.

Reminds something? Yep, the 100% diplomatic approach of a certain bald orc.

You can't sell that horde paranoia that dismantle means killing everyone. That is what you want it to mean to justify your extremist position.

I never implied dismantle = killing everyone. In fact, Garrosh didn't want to "kill everyone". He wanted to conquer. He wanted to destroy the Alliance as a faction and "unite" Azeroth under the Horde banner, according to his own terms. That's what Garrosh desired. "Muh genocide" is nothing but savage headcanon because "lol Garrosh is literally Hitler" so he has to genocide something according to some.

I'm sorry if that offends you but yes, Garrosh and Jaina were not dramatically different. One was driven by insecurities, inferiority complexes and daddy issues, the other by PTSD, hatred and trust issues but on the end of the day both wanted to see the other faction gone with their own ruling uncontested. Garrosh may have gone far at the deeper end in terms of methods but Jaina has been quite borderline as well when in Tides of War claimed the Focusing Iris for herself, only to say "fuck Alliance" once Varian declined her plan and went on her own way to obliterate Orgrimmar and unwittingly destroying the Alliance's naval fleet as well (killing Varian in the process) or when she pursued an ethnic cleansing against the Sunreavers.

The most relevant differences between the two are 1) Garrosh had absolute power over the Horde and that clearly went over his head where Jaina, on the other hand, never had so much power in her hands (even though she has been promtly ready to abuse it the moment she got a certain extent of it) 2) Jaina has never been at odds with any non-human Alliance race where Garrosh...well, that's history and 3) admittedly, Jaina is capable of regret where Garrosh is seemingly unable to feel even an ounce of it.

Edit: among the differences I would also add the fact that, despite all his numerous flaws, Garrosh was at least brutally honest about his intentions. Jaina on the other hand went from implying that peace could have been a thing once Garrosh was dethroned to say "yay Varian, fucking dismantle the Horde". With all this speaking of betrayal, this comes relatively close in regards of Lor'themar and what Jaina suggested to him in the 5.2, right before changing her mind and pretty much supporting the continuation of the war until the Horde wasn't "dismantled".

[Every Pwny]

You completely missed my point, Jaina is atrociously written, even if she was a male character, the whole ping pong from okay to insane to peaceful to warmongerer, it does make her look like a psycho, pretty much ever other major lore character is far more consistent. I like all the other female characters writing, even if I dislike the characters themselves (sylvannas, for example) - I don't hate Jaina cause she's female, I hate her because she is probably one of the worst characters in lore, and she does fall into the sexist stereotype that some people have of women, I'm sorry she does. She's shit.

Just because she is angry and her anger about traumatic events resurge into her personality from other events (like being stabbed in the back from within Dalara) doesn't mean she is atrociously written. It's true she is written different from the books and in game, because in game they try have characters have more hamfisted reactions. I mean look at the SoO ending cinematic, Varian gets angry grits his teeth, calls for his guards men then stomps over there to make peace. It was idiotic how they handled it, but it was more to create "suspense" so they handled his reaction stupidly because it's hard for a lot of wow players to understand subtle character development so they go overboard.

Her character isn't bad and saying a "stereotypical" female is some crazy PMSing loon is insanely ridiculous. But again it's definitely people judging female so much harder when they have negative emotional reactions to things, as opposed to a male character who gets mad that his home is destroyed and friends are kill. People expect characters to just sleep it off or they are absolutely insane, look at Greymane, people love him (some hate him) but he's not seen as a crazy yo-yo bitch and he's actually fighting the horde while Jaina is just doing nothing right now. Her character isn't bad, but they are writing her in-game in a way to portray her anger and hurt, they aren't good at subtle emotions so most of the time (not just with jaina) their writing is poor, and it wouldn't be a good as in a longer book to explain her more.

[Mehrunes]

Her character isn't bad and saying a "stereotypical" female is some crazy PMSing loon is insanely ridiculous. But again it's definitely people judging female so much harder when they have negative emotional reactions to things, as opposed to a male character who gets mad that his home is destroyed and friends are kill. People expect characters to just sleep it off or they are absolutely insane, look at Greymane, people love him (some hate him) but he's not seen as a crazy yo-yo bitch and he's actually fighting the horde while Jaina is just doing nothing right now. Her character isn't bad, but they are writing her in-game in a way to portray her anger and hurt, they aren't good at subtle emotions so most of the time (not just with jaina) their writing is poor, and it wouldn't be a good as in a longer book to explain her more.

Having drastic mood swings and being overall ruled by emotions (whereas men are ruled be reason while having the emotional capacity of a rock) is one of the gender stereotypes, so I'm not sure what's your issue about someone invoking a stereotype. @bennet didn't say they agree with it, only that Jaina is written according to it. And I'll once again point out to Rogers, who doesn't have anywhere near as negative reaction as Jaina, despite killing Horde forces in cold blood while also being a female. Now compare her to Garrosh, who's constantly portrayed as Hitler of WoW. And I have no clue as to why you're trying to make a point out of Genn not being called a yo-yo when he's written utterly consistently.

[Aliven]

He mentions multiple things for the Alliance and not all of them have to be inherently linked. As of right now, Sylvanas is in no position to betray the Alliance, for example.




Her shift between 5.1 and 5.4 isn't. Her shift between 5.4 and War Crimes isn't. Her shift between War Crimes and WoD/Legion isn't.




I'm not sure how that's relevant to what you quoted. And her portrayal after War Crimes is once again more antagonistic.

Once again, watch the video on subject. Everything is explained.

[Traveler Voltin]

You are incorrect. No Alliance leaders are "against" her.
She didn't want to work together with the horde. The others thought they should. No one is declaring war on her.

Also, to the guy that said "derp she is a long enemy how would she betray us?". Well, because currently horde and alliance are allied again. She will betray in the same sense Garrosh betrayed. How would Varimathras even know anything about Jaina and her situation? The desperation is hilarious! xD

horde and alliance are not allied anymore. they almost went to war twice and technically should be at war with the crap genn pulled.

so the legion cant share information with each other? did you miss legion infiltrated horde and alliance in the prepatch after the broken shore scenario?