Tomb of Sargeras Progression Thread

[Jimson]

Pretty much every single one, with the endboss sometimes needing maybe one more reset?

Most bosses were doable with gear available at that time given sufficient farming, without having to wait several lockouts.

You say every one, then mention "sufficient farming." :thinking:

If you farm enough gear to beat a boss, it's not a gear gate anymore? The top five guilds in the world beating a DPS check after 6 or 7 splits heroics doesn't magically lower DPS requirements for the other 99.999% of people making attempts.

[Onikaroshi]

The worst part of this all is the fact that people go in to mythic right now having a higher average itemlevel then the gear that actually drops from the bosses they kill.

Except its not just about ilvl, its about the ilvl of the right tier/relics/trinkets. Did I really need to specify what kind of gear I ment with ilvl?

You clearly said average ilvl, need to lay off the pot maybe? Just because their average ilvl is above the what the boss drops doesn't mean the ilvl of the tier/relics/trinkets aren't higher, avg ilvl has always been meanlingless

[Jastall]

ToV guarm and helya turning was pretty off as well, if your group did zero splits goodluck doing guarm week 1 (and for that matter helya p3 dps check.) Also you really need to do your research before making statements if you really think only 5 to 10 guilds do splits.

Onoz, a boss was hard with the gear you got week 1. What a shame. Still wasn't anywhere near the buggy, overtuned mess that M KJ was.

I'm not saying 5 guilds do splits. I'm saying 5-10 guilds (maybe) need to do splits. The rest have other things holding them back, unless one believes splits is what caused Alpha to have so many wipes on bosses Method killed far faster. And those that are doing several split runs and are not in the top page of Wowprogress are simply tryharding so I frankly don't care about them.

Fixing TF would already reduce the usefulness of split runs. Nothing more needs to be done. Penalizing 99% of raiders in the name of a WF race that Blizzard hardly seems to even care about is not how this game needs to be designed.

[Nuckels]

You clearly said average ilvl, need to lay off the pot maybe? Just because their average ilvl is above the what the boss drops doesn't mean the ilvl of the tier/relics/trinkets aren't higher, avg ilvl has always been meanlingless

Ok then I will put it to rest once and for all and specify my problem.

People are forced to do all types of content to get pieces of loot to roll to a high ilvl similar or above that of mythic, this includes but is not limited to: any piece of armor that isnt going to be occupied by tier or legendary's for the current tier, jewelry, relics and last but not least trnkets that outperform that of current content. Arcanocrystal is such a cool trinket btw!

The above items make up the biggest chunk of a characters gearslots, and guess what, the average item level of those items is generally above that of what mythic drops for the first 5/6 bosses and that makes said mythic gear obsolete. Mythic loot going to offspec on the first reset sure is fun! \o/

Due to this fact people go in to mythic having a higher AVERAGE ITEM LEVEL then what drops. Better?

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Onoz, a boss was hard with the gear you got week 1. What a shame. Still wasn't anywhere near the buggy, overtuned mess that M KJ was.

I'm not saying 5 guilds do splits. I'm saying 5-10 guilds (maybe) need to do splits. The rest have other things holding them back, unless one believes splits is what caused Alpha to have so many wipes on bosses Method killed far faster. And those that are doing several split runs and are not in the top page of Wowprogress are simply tryharding so I frankly don't care about them.

Fixing TF would already reduce the usefulness of split runs. Nothing more needs to be done. Penalizing 99% of raiders in the name of a WF race that Blizzard hardly seems to even care about is not how this game needs to be designed.

Guarm and helya werent just hard, if you didnt do splits you sure as shit werent gonna have the comp for helya and most probably not make the dps requirement for phase 3, assuming you had decent rng to get past gaurm in the first place. (This all assuming your raiders had a high enough artifact level.) Artificial gating sure is good design wooo.

Why do you think there are still so few avatar kills, is it because the boss is so mechanicly complex or do you think its partially due to a serious dps and comp check? Splitting gives you gear, and gears alts, this lets you class stack. Ahh your guild only has one rogue? Well to fucking bad you didnt do splits then luls.

Splitting does so much its unreal, its a problem. This does not only effect the top 5/10 guilds because any guild beneath them is directly effected by what top guilds do till a encounter is retuned (nerfed.)

Anyway going to stop posting now, Blizzard is fully aware of the problems TF and their 4 difficulties created. Its not a secret the biggest portion of their playerbase do not raid mythic ergo Blizzard see's no urgency to fix it. It's been a problem that has been stated from the moment Legion went in to beta and I sure as shit don't see it changing anytime soon.

[Onikaroshi]

Ok then I will put it to rest once and for all and specify my problem.

People are forced to do all types of content to get pieces of loot to roll to a high ilvl similar or above that of mythic, this includes but is not limited to: any piece of armor that isnt going to be occupied by tier or legendary's for the current tier, jewelry, relics and last but not least trnkets that outperform that of current content. Arcanocrystal is such a cool trinket btw!

The above items make up the biggest chunk of a characters gearslots, and guess what, the average item level of those items is generally above that of what mythic drops for the first 5/6 bosses and that makes said mythic gear obsolete. Mythic loot going to offspec on the first reset sure is fun! \o/

Due to this fact people go in to mythic having a higher AVERAGE ITEM LEVEL then what drops. Better?

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Guarm and helya werent just hard, if you didnt do splits you sure as shit werent gonna have the comp for helya and most probably not make the dps requirement for phase 3, assuming you had decent rng to get past gaurm in the first place. (This all assuming your raiders had a high enough artifact level.) Artificial gating sure is good design wooo.

Why do you think there are still so few avatar kills, is it because the boss is so mechanicly complex or do you think its partially due to a serious dps and comp check? Splitting gives you gear, and gears alts, this lets you class stack. Ahh your guild only has one rogue? Well to fucking bad you didnt do splits then luls.

Splitting does so much its unreal, its a problem. This does not only effect the top 5/10 guilds because any guild beneath them is directly effected by what top guilds do till a encounter is retuned (nerfed.)

I mean, I see your point on items, but to me doing any type of content is fun. I'm a weird end of the spectrum and I can see how some things need to be fixed (I would honestly enjoy splits, I WANT to raid 7 days a week, and I do old raids all the time on my army of alts) but the who WF/TF thing and splits are only so far related, they may have increased the number somewhat, but splits existed before WF/TF and will exist LONG after the system is scrapped. (Btw, what class still has Arcano anywhere near the top? I've seen a COUPLE with BT in the top 5, a bunch with NH trinkets towards the top, but I haven't seen an Arcano break top 5 in awhile)

If someone could come up with a system to end splits that A) works and B) doesn't hurt every other guild out there that raids the same content (though not at the same level persay) I'm sure it could be looked into. Straight up locking difficulties has never been the answer, but I still don't know if there is a good one.

Regardless, we can all concede to the fact that Mythic should be the highest level of gear obtainable for Tuning purposes, with maybe a 5 ilvl difference between it and H TF. Hell even up mythic Ilvl to make room (example, ToS Heroic 915-930 for all but KJ, ToS Mythic 935 all bosses except KJ), just anything so we get to keep our WF/TF and mythic can still tune properly.

But as for splits... idk what to do to fix a 1% issue without hurting 99% who don't without trivializing the encounters for guilds like Method and Exorsus (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing)

[BiggestNoob]

The reason many of us respond in the way we are is because its already been tried, we raided under a shared lockout system and it sucked. It was changed for a reason.
The link following link is from a Commentary from Blizzard on why the system was changed at the start of WoD where it went to the current system of lockout per boss per difficulty on levels below Mythic.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...rds-of-draenor

It didn't suck, Blizzard literally stated it was solely to give loot to people who run multiple difficulties, even though it's completely unnecessary (if you're running mythic, you don't need normal/heroic gear, and shouldn't):

In Warlords, each raid difficulty will have its own weekly lockout. We gave careful consideration to how the lockout system should work, and which difficulties (if any) would share lockouts. Having seen how Flex works today, it’s clear there are many benefits to having our raid difficulties on separate lockouts: Players might currently raid Normal or Heroic Siege of Orgrimmar with their guilds on a set schedule, but then join real-life friends on another server for weekend Flex runs and a chance to grab some off-spec loot. Players who are regularly clearing Normal, let alone Heroic, Siege of Orgrimmar quickly find that they don’t need much main-spec loot from Flex. Most players who are doing Siege in multiple difficulties each week are doing so with different social groups, and we’d like to preserve players’ freedom to do so.

So no, that wasn't done for a good reason that couldn't be solved better with a better implementation. Having a per-boss loot lockout for all difficulties wouldn't prevent players from running the instance with multiple social groups. You could even run mythic with a friend guild and help them progress on bosses you've already killed (and that should be a thing, with a flex loot system so 20 unlocked = current # of items per boss, 19 = one of the pieces becomes a dice roll, and so on, down to 1 player loot eligible means you get between 0 and 1 items dropped on average).

The only thing it stops is getting loot from multiple difficulties, which is precisely the point. That's a desirable thing right now because of TF, realistically if you're doing your main raid with your guild and then you run with your buddies on ezmode, you're not there for the gear, nor should you need anything (or be given anything) from the instance because you already have a much stronger source of gear, and those items are the best pieces your friends are going to see.

[Twdft]

If someone could come up with a system to end splits that A) works and B) doesn't hurt every other guild out there that raids the same content (though not at the same level persay) I'm sure it could be looked into. Straight up locking difficulties has never been the answer, but I still don't know if there is a good one.

Quoting myself here, how about this:

Imagine an achievement "way way ahead of whatever" for killing heroic endboss before opening of mythic that gives you accountwide access to all of the heroic loot of the raid, which would vanish after the second week of mythic. That loot would be extra so you can keep what dropped at the clear itself. Have the extra loot titanforge to the level at which mythic is tuned, cap titanforge for normal drops to that the first week. Require endboss kill being the first kill for everyone in the raid.

That way you just have all classes on your account so you can choose whichever for mythic race, but only the one you actually played with can keep his stuff. No need for splits. This would push farming for gear to after the progress though.

[Onikaroshi]

Quoting myself here, how about this:

The thoughts there and possibly something could be done with it, but that's basically saying all mythic progression for the race is to be done on a tournament server

[The Cheat]

Hoping NA first happens soon so this thread can die.

[BiggestNoob]

Quoting myself here, how about this:

I think an easier implementation of the "CM" style competition would be to set an ilvl cap on mythic difficulty around the ilvl of the previous raid's mythic gear so no split farming is needed and alts geared in the previous raid are viable, then start raising it once the instance is cleared.

It makes the power growth explicit and doesn't require Blizzard to tune final bosses around being mostly in full mythic gear or TF heroic for Method and friends.

They already have the tech to do this, so it'd be trivial to do, but Blizzard is busy pandering to people who don't even really play the game yet demand the game be catered to them at the expense of anyone who actually wants to play it.

[Netherblood]

I think an easier implementation of the "CM" style competition would be to set an ilvl cap on mythic difficulty around the ilvl of the previous raid's mythic gear so no split farming is needed and alts geared in the previous raid are viable, then start raising it once the instance is cleared.

It makes the power growth explicit and doesn't require Blizzard to tune final bosses around being mostly in full mythic gear or TF heroic for Method and friends.

They already have the tech to do this, so it'd be trivial to do, but Blizzard is busy pandering to people who don't even really play the game yet demand the game be catered to them at the expense of anyone who actually wants to play it.

Except Method did like 4 Nighthold mythic split runs in preparation for ToS, even if the cap is at base ilvl and not TF cap of previous tier you still have sockets and avoidance. Imagine 20% avoidance on every raid member for Fallen Avatar, your whole raid just takes 20% less dmg P2. Even Quin's 16hr/week guild did 1 split run of mythic NH.

[BiggestNoob]

Except Method did like 4 Nighthold mythic split runs in preparation for ToS, even if the cap is at base ilvl and not TF cap of previous tier you still have sockets and avoidance. Imagine 20% avoidance on every raid member for Fallen Avatar, your whole raid just takes 20% less dmg P2. Even Quin's 16hr/week guild did 1 split run of mythic NH.

It's not a reach to see that they can also fix that by suppressing sockets and tertiaries the same way. Avoidance shouldn't even be in the game because it's not like speed or no durability loss, and having a bunch of sockets is at most 1-2 ilvls of advantage which is below the tuning threshold of every boss in the past 3-4 years.

[willemh]

You can't blame people who only just started playing and don't know that the system they are proposing has been tried before and was abandoned for a reason.

Except that the people that are proposing it have been playing this game since vanilla and have been able to see the pro's and con's of both systems. Nice try tho.

[Dismembered]

Hoping NA first happens soon so this thread can die.

Never LUL won't happen

[Kakera]

I think an easier implementation of the "CM" style competition would be to set an ilvl cap on mythic difficulty around the ilvl of the previous raid's mythic gear so no split farming is needed and alts geared in the previous raid are viable, then start raising it once the instance is cleared.

It makes the power growth explicit and doesn't require Blizzard to tune final bosses around being mostly in full mythic gear or TF heroic for Method and friends.

They already have the tech to do this, so it'd be trivial to do, but Blizzard is busy pandering to people who don't even really play the game yet demand the game be catered to them at the expense of anyone who actually wants to play it.

I actually really really fucking like this idea. Make the raids centered around who is strategically ahead of the curve rather than who spends the most time in split runs. I'm not saying the results of the progress race would change dramatically. But it certainly would help tons of more skilled guilds who fall behind simply due to time constraints.

[willemh]

And people who do Heroic and Mythic, such as myself? You just either discouraged them from doing progression altogether, or forced their weekly Heroic farm runs to be half pointless. Enjoy seeing the already small Mythic population dwindle even further.

No. Shared lockouts is a terrible idea. Let the top guilds exhaust themselves split running. Punishing other parts of the playerbase for their bad habits is not good design at all.

People like yourself wouldn't be hurt in any way. As in your case you would clear half the bosses in mythic and the other half in heroic. You can easily put a system in place that doesnt force you to farm bosses you're not loot eligible for (actually such a system was in place for 2 expansions...). You can also easily tune the bonus roll system/loot amount to not make people in your situation loose any loot compared to todays situation.

I've been reading a million posts about 'punishing a huge part of the playerbase for the top 0.5%' now, without those posts giving any arguments whatsoever as to how this system would punish them.

And assuming that only 0.5% of the playerbase dislikes killing the same bosses multiple times per week and 99.5% of the playerbase really enjoys having to farm the same boss on multiple difficulties each week without any kind of data to support this trully amazes me. Hell I'm not even in a guild atm, just pugging heroic each week and even I dislike that I feel kinda obliged to also do a quick normal clear and it certainly burns me out of content faster.

Let me put it this way, if you would get the same amount of loot in the new system as you do in the old, do you really believe 99.5% of the wow population would feel really bad they have no reason to farm the same boss multiple times a week anymore? Stop fooling yourself.

[Dangg]

You say every one, then mention "sufficient farming." :thinking:

If you farm enough gear to beat a boss, it's not a gear gate anymore? The top five guilds in the world beating a DPS check after 6 or 7 splits heroics doesn't magically lower DPS requirements for the other 99.999% of people making attempts.

Obviously I meant designing a boss in a way that you have to wait for lockouts of gear for him to be doable.

[Jastall]

People like yourself wouldn't be hurt in any way. As in your case you would clear half the bosses in mythic and the other half in heroic. You can easily put a system in place that doesnt force you to farm bosses you're not loot eligible for (actually such a system was in place for 2 expansions...). You can also easily tune the bonus roll system/loot amount to not make people in your situation loose any loot compared to todays situation.

I've been reading a million posts about 'punishing a huge part of the playerbase for the top 0.5%' now, without those posts giving any arguments whatsoever as to how this system would punish them.

And assuming that only 0.5% of the playerbase dislikes killing the same bosses multiple times per week and 99.5% of the playerbase really enjoys having to farm the same boss on multiple difficulties each week without any kind of data to support this trully amazes me. Hell I'm not even in a guild atm, just pugging heroic each week and even I dislike that I feel kinda obliged to also do a quick normal clear and it certainly burns me out of content faster.

Let me put it this way, if you would get the same amount of loot in the new system as you do in the old, do you really believe 99.5% of the wow population would feel really bad they have no reason to farm the same boss multiple times a week anymore? Stop fooling yourself.

Explain what system is that, oh wise one. Since I see little in your post but dismissive arguments with little meat to them. Because right now, if I need a piece off say, Harjatan H (like the ring), I can kill him on Heroic and kill him on Mythic for 2 chances at that piece. With a shared lockout, I need to kill him on Mythic first or lose out on my chance at the 930 ring. We do our farm run Tuesday and usually progress on Thursday and Friday.

Explain to me, how a shared lockout doesn't penalize me. Or how it doesn't penalize someone who likes to run LFR or Normal first day of the week then does Heroic runs with friends or guildies later down the line. or any of the other combination of raiders that don't nolife the fuck out of the first month of the tier to get their names on some third-party website.

These issues would be solved by some kind of tournament realm for WF progression, but Blizzard obviously doesn't care about doing that and I can understand why. So in between locking the playerbase to one difficulty level and making those who want to do WFs farm Heroic, I'll take the latter any day of the week. It wasn't a big problem in WOD because Titanforging wasn't out of hand. Fix TF and you fix the issue, no need to take the axe to other gameplay systems.

[burek]

Ok then I will put it to rest once and for all and specify my problem.

People are forced to do all types of content to get pieces of loot to roll to a high ilvl similar or above that of mythic, this includes but is not limited to: any piece of armor that isnt going to be occupied by tier or legendary's for the current tier, jewelry, relics and last but not least trnkets that outperform that of current content. Arcanocrystal is such a cool trinket btw!

Nobody is fucking forced to do that. Are you saying that world first guilds used chars with 955 arcanocrystals? No they didn't. They are not needed for anything. BIS lists are pointless since legion, and anyone obsessing with 'bis' should get real

[BiggestNoob]

ITT: people demanding people prove a negative rather than presenting evidence, and people talking about a non-argument strawman regarding free will, while being willfully ignorant of even the fundamentals of competition at any level whatsoever, letting everyone know just how lazy and incapable of doing anything they are.