There is no longer a desire to make Raid Finder a tourist mode.

[Torto]

If you read the whole post I didn't blame just LFR. Raiding isn't dying because people aren't enjoying it, there's just zero incentive past doing LFR if you don't want to challenge yourself. And if your incentive is gear, there's zero incentive past Mythic+. Current raiding is widely regarded as the best raid content in the last 2 expansions. So it isn't people aren't enjoying it.

And when did Heroic/Mythic raiding start to decline? When they allowed LFR gear to titanforge as high as mythic raid gear.

Bottom line that you keep refusing to offer counterargument for is that there is no reason to have a 4th raid difficulty, aka LFR, when all it does it reward people for sitting in a que for 20 minutes then AFKing through bosses or intentionally dying so they don't have to do anything. There's no reason that laziness should be rewarded with things capable for rolling as high as mythic raiding gear.

So if you want a middle ground, keep LFR, but make it so there isn't ANY loot from it. Problem solved or make it so its the same IL as hero dungeons and it can't titanforge, just like timewalking shit can't.

LFR already drops garbage, and yet a vast majority of players still do it. Making the loot even more garbage won't change that. I do lfr to see out the story and tick off quests. I don't go looking for loot in lfr because I know it's going to be useless crap. I still don't think you fully understand the motivations of most people doing lfr.

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I know that they want less people in LFR and more people in Normal Raiding, but they need to realise the majority don't even like raiding at all. Gotta stop putting this huge importance into raiding.

Amen brother!

[TyrannicalPuppy]

Nah.

Why waste resources on this. LFR should be scrapped altogether.

But it won't be, so stop that.

[lockybalboa]

But it IS tourist mode. People can go in, have a look at the raid/lore, have fun and still get their kills

[ls-]

LFR already drops garbage, and yet a vast majority of players still do it. Making the loot even more garbage won't change that. I do lfr to see out the story and tick off quests. I don't go looking for loot in lfr because I know it's going to be useless crap. I still don't think you fully understand the motivations of most people doing lfr.

I dunno why you're wasting your time on him. I mean, he thinks that HC/M raiding started declining when TF was added to LFR That's quite a delusion, if you ask me.

HC raiding scene started declining faster when EQ-style raiding schedule and etiquette became things of the past, and splits and 8+/7 raiding during progression became the new norm.

And ofc, raiding in general always was and always will be a niche activity, it's prob the most popular one among all activities WoW has to offer, but it's still a thing that interests only a certain group of people.

[PenguinChan]

I know that they want less people in LFR and more people in Normal Raiding, but they need to realise the majority don't even like raiding at all. Gotta stop putting this huge importance into raiding.

I'm sure a healthy chunk of people do enjoy raiding, hence LFR's existence. The problem comes that there is no queue system for raiding and the time dedication Normal and onward requires.

[Zyky]

LFR already drops garbage, and yet a vast majority of players still do it. Making the loot even more garbage won't change that. I do lfr to see out the story and tick off quests. I don't go looking for loot in lfr because I know it's going to be useless crap. I still don't think you fully understand the motivations of most people doing lfr.

You're ignoring what I said yet again because you only want to satisfy your agenda instead of actually coming up with a decent argument. So since you either can't read complete posts or you just refuse to, I'll reiterate, the fact that lfr can drop gear equal to mythic raiding is a deterrent for people to bother to 1) Join a guild and 2) bother to do anything extra.

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I dunno why you're wasting your time on him. I mean, he thinks that HC/M raiding started declining when TF was added to LFR That's quite a delusion, if you ask me.

HC raiding scene started declining faster when EQ-style raiding schedule and etiquette became things of the past, and splits and 8+/7 raiding during progression became the new norm.

And ofc, raiding in general always was and always will be a niche activity, it's prob the most popular one among all activities WoW has to offer, but it's still a thing that interests only a certain group of people.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Heroic/Mythic raided started to decline in Warlords when they made LFR mindless and it literally gave a free legendary to people.

[Torto]

You're ignoring what I said yet again because you only want to satisfy your agenda instead of actually coming up with a decent argument. So since you either can't read complete posts or you just refuse to, I'll reiterate, the fact that lfr can drop gear equal to mythic raiding is a deterrent for people to bother to 1) Join a guild and 2) bother to do anything extra.

Are you seriously suggesting the majority of players out there are doing lfr just for the 0.001% chance of getting mythic raiding level gear? I mean, there might be a few try hards but...really?

[Twdft]

And when did Heroic/Mythic raiding start to decline? When they allowed LFR gear to titanforge as high as mythic raid gear.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Heroic/Mythic raided started to decline in Warlords when they made LFR mindless and it literally gave a free legendary to people.

Do you have statistics for raid participation to back up your contradicting assumptions?

[Osmeric]

I'll reiterate, the fact that lfr can drop gear equal to mythic raiding is a deterrent for people to bother to 1) Join a guild and 2) bother to do anything extra.

You can reiterate it, but your statement is still ridiculous bullshit. It's like saying the lottery is a deterrent to people working, because they can make millions of dollars for doing nothing.

The chance that LFR will drop mythic level gear is very low, so low that the only significant effect it has is to encourage lifeless minmaxers to run it in addition to the higher difficulty modes. For the people for whom LFR would be enough, the very rare mythic-leval drops will have negligible effect on their behavior.

[Deleted]

All LFR needs is the ability to filter out players.
That one player that queued as healer but is DPS? I want to be able to permanently ignore him so that i don't get grouped with him again.
Those two DPS'ers auto-attacking? The one intentionally dying at the start of every fight? Those that go AFK at every boss? The tank with red pants on that thinks he can run through every pack of mobs and leave them to the DPS?

I want to be able to remove them from my player pool.

Once this is done the difficulty can be increased.

[kamuimac]

I dunno why you're wasting your time on him. I mean, he thinks that HC/M raiding started declining when TF was added to LFR That's quite a delusion, if you ask me.

HC raiding scene started declining faster when EQ-style raiding schedule and etiquette became things of the past, and splits and 8+/7 raiding during progression became the new norm.

And ofc, raiding in general always was and always will be a niche activity, it's prob the most popular one among all activities WoW has to offer, but it's still a thing that interests only a certain group of people.

the only reason its popular is exackly because of lfr - without lfr particicpation ratio woudl drop by 70-80 % and we would end up with 7 raid bosses raids like firelands.

the only ones compalining about lfr are people who have no interest doin it in first place and do it only to show how pathetic lowlifes they are. there are 3 harder modes to choose from yet they still bully lfr - its beyond retrded at this point.

[clevin]

I think LFR is popular for a few reasons:

1) It's something to do.
2) It's on demand. I can queue for a single wing, then log or do all of the open wings in one night.
3) It drops some gear. Gear is always nice.
4) You can see the raid instance and get the gist of the lore in there.
5) You won't spend hours wiping.

I'd love, though, to see MoP level LFR return. That forced some responsibility and attention but wasn't too punishing. The problem is that they've now accustomed people to LFR being insanely easy and some of the people who do it will complain. But if it drops the same loot as normal with just a lower item level, it needs to have more challenge than it does. Not a ton more - most of MoP bosses were one shot but a few were a challenge (Durumu, Lei Shen) and that made it fun.

[ls-]

the only reason its popular is exackly because of lfr - without lfr particicpation ratio woudl drop by 70-80 % and we would end up with 7 raid bosses raids like firelands.

the only ones compalining about lfr are people who have no interest doin it in first place and do it only to show how pathetic lowlifes they are. there are 3 harder modes to choose from yet they still bully lfr - its beyond retrded at this point.

Nah, I meant raiding popularity excluding LFR numbers. Organised raiding is one of the most popular activities in this game, might be the most popular one, LFR simply boosts number of people who enter raids in general.

WoW is a collection of multiple side games: raiding, M+, PvP, AH (yes, I consider playing AH a side game ), RP, tmog hunting, etc. People just do whatever they like to do.

But unlike other activities, raids are much more expensive to produce, thus showing them to a broad audience is very and very important.

I raid HC and M, but pretty casually, no tryharding whatsoever, the only time I go to LFR is when I feel like doing so, e.g., I might want to get some runes to sell or for myself (mainly CTA bags, never queue otherwise) or if I like LFR recolour of T set, really like hunter T19 on my shaman

Never understood hostility towards LFR (as a system), sure, it has its own problems, so what? LFR is defo no the reason why organised raiding in harder difficulties in decline.

[Greenmagoo]

The team is hoping to make difficulty closer to Mists of Pandaria difficulty than Warlords. There are some fights that are too easy still.

So the devs do not want to return to MoP difficulty. Not sure what some fights being too easy have to do with that when the devs could do a better job tuning the fights.

Instead, the team moved to having fewer mechanics but making them meaningful and challenging.

I do agree with cutting back on mechanics and have players focus on the meaningful ones as the current model usually leaves healers fucked if there is a lot of avoidable mechanics that people dont avoid. Has been a long going issue with Watcher and his teams design philosophy. The cutting back of mechanics might actually make the fights easier for those who do try while have problems with following many mechanics. On the other hand it will raise tension if mechanics require far more group organization and a group is filled with too not working together as a team.

[Lahis]

The team is hoping to make difficulty closer to Mists of Pandaria difficulty than Warlords. There are some fights that are too easy still.

So the devs do not want to return to MoP difficulty. Not sure what some fights being too easy have to do with that when the devs could do a better job tuning the fights.

Instead, the team moved to having fewer mechanics but making them meaningful and challenging.

I do agree with cutting back on mechanics and have players focus on the meaningful ones as the current model usually leaves healers fucked if there is a lot of avoidable mechanics that people dont avoid. Has been a long going issue with Watcher and his teams design philosophy. The cutting back of mechanics might actually make the fights easier for those who do try while have problems with following many mechanics. On the other hand it will raise tension if mechanics require far more group organization and a group is filled with too not working together as a team.

They need to focus on mechanics that will fuck over individual players if they don't react, but don't require raid wide coordination or cause instant wipes.

Losing few idiots is inevitable in LFR, but if losing said idiots results in a sure wipe it gets frustrating to the rest of the group.

[TheDeeGee]

This won't last, people need to move on to do Normal difficulty.

Then i will cancel my sub, probably along with many others.

I have no desire to manually advertise myself to get into a group.

I'm fine with making it harder, but if i can't queue up while doing other stuff it's the end of WoW for me after 12 years.

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I think LFR is popular for a few reasons:

1) It's something to do.
2) It's on demand. I can queue for a single wing, then log or do all of the open wings in one night.
3) It drops some gear. Gear is always nice.
4) You can see the raid instance and get the gist of the lore in there.
5) You won't spend hours wiping.

I'd love, though, to see MoP level LFR return. That forced some responsibility and attention but wasn't too punishing. The problem is that they've now accustomed people to LFR being insanely easy and some of the people who do it will complain. But if it drops the same loot as normal with just a lower item level, it needs to have more challenge than it does. Not a ton more - most of MoP bosses were one shot but a few were a challenge (Durumu, Lei Shen) and that made it fun.

Those are exactly the points why it shouldn't be removed.

If anything, Mythic should be removed as way less people manage to clear that compared to LFR, Normal and Heroic.

They should go back to LFR, Flex and Heroic.

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Nah.

Why waste resources on this. LFR should be scrapped altogether.

"Ohuhuh uhuh don't do/like LFR so it should be removed"

Remove Heirlooms as well then cuz i never use them.

[Soxoffender]

LFR being too easy is not really an issue. There's harder difficulties already.

Making LFR harder won't increase the skill of the LFR playerbase. It will only make them wipe a lot more. People will complain a lot more.

Yeah, they're saying it'll be more like Pandaria than Warlords but the people who kept getting the raid crushed by Garalon were dumb enough to do that every single week without fail and honestly never seemed to improve even slightly. I'm not one of those people who think being bad at a video game is some sort of moral failing but we really do need to acknowledge that there's a certain portion of the LFR player base who are so utterly incapable of following the most basic of tactics that it's a wonder they even manage to click the right things to queue in the first place. If them spending 30 straight seconds bathing in fire is going to cause problems for the group then more people will complain than celebrate for sure.

And when did Heroic/Mythic raiding start to decline? When they allowed LFR gear to titanforge as high as mythic raid gear

I would be astonished if a significant number of people have stopped HC raiding in favour of praying for unlikely titanforges from LFR. If the data here is even close to representative then you'd need to see over 200 items drop before the odds of a +25 (or 5 levels below HC base) would tip in your favour.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...my_71_data_on/

Anyone who can clear HC by the end of the tier is going to have far better gear than all but the absolute luckiest LFR-only players.

[Krakozjubr]

I know you guys on this forum hate to hear it but your niche activity is a fading light.

Without a doubt. Because humanity becomes more lazy and entitled with each passing year.

[Raelbo]

I get the feeling a lot of people here missed the crux of what they were saying.

They aren't advocating bringing LFR closer to the point of organised raiding (normal and higher), or forcing players to get work hard to improve their characters in order to succeed. It's about setting the content so that it is engaging for the people doing it.

LFR should be at the level where the people for whom it was designed feel like they have to pay a bit of attention to what they're doing and apply whatever skill they might have (even if somewhat limited) if they want to win, as opposed to the boss just falling over automatically.

And I agree. LFR shouldn't be particularly challenging for anyone who wants to participate in it. But that doesn't mean that everyone should be able to sleep their way through it.

[pseudoJ]

I really don't get the idea behind any level of difficulty in LFR. The items are crap, it's a menu click quickplay option, it's meant to be the easiest difficulty by far - why dwell on the fact that it's easy? Casual players can go for normal/HC runs anytime they want, LFR is perfect for this 20 min brainless content to relax.

You (and many others) seem to misunderstand. Nobody intends to make LFR "hard" just more engaging -- meaning that it should not be possible for more than half of the group to go afk while the remaining poor bastards do all the work. A lot of LFR bosses basically had the same abilities as on normal, however you could completely and totally ignore them. The "new way" is to strip the bosses of meaningless abilities and leave 1 or 2 abilities which you still have to do well -- e.g. go away from boss when he casts X or it will do high damage to you (dare I say kill you?) even on LFR. Personally I think this approach is great and makes most sense.