By not having children and saving up the money instead will make you rich?

[truckboattruck]

Nothing to disagree with no they don't and no they shouldn't there's only one race of human and raising white people to be stupid is not a strength neither is taking pride in a skin color. Or fantasy about fucking big tit Tay Elves or jacking off to Game of Thrones, LOTRs or Thor.

its nice that you have believe in fantasies
have fun with that

[Unhinged]

Pretty narcissistic and antisocial, if you ask me.

First off, if you want to enjoy a state pension, you have an obligation to have children. Otherwise how do you think it'll be funded?

Second, what a waste your life will be. Yay, you get to indulge yourself - again, how narcissistic. Maybe if you threw yourself into some grand project - and did well at it - I might think differently, but otherwise it just sounds like you're a shallow, selfish person.

Third, you can slash a lot of the costs - as the chart shows, almost the entire increase is down to education - though it says it's not college education, so maybe they're thinking of daycare and private schooling? In that case, home school or send your child to a state school and don't use daycare (that's what your significant other is for).

Fourth, if you really think raising a child is merely an economic calculation, and that all the love and joy and pain and all the rest doesn't count because you can't measure it (let alone in dollars)... you're an idiot.

You understand in most countries those that don't have kids pay far more taxes than those that do have kids.

You are just a slave to biology so there is no point having a civil discussion with you.

[Theodarzna]

You understand in most countries those that don't have kids pay far more taxes than those that do have kids.

You are just a slave to biology so there is no point having a civil discussion with you.

Well, realistically what is the point of amassing vast wealth if your not fulfilling literally the only inborn instructions you come with?

[frogger237]

"have as many kids as you can, 'cuz that makes it more likely that one of those kids'll grow up an make it big in Hollywood. Then who's payin' the bills huh? Hollywood Kid."

[Ehrenpanzer]

"Not my problem." - Republicans on virtually every potential future problem caused by their present actions.

Like the Democrats have a better plan? Spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and somehow magically the debt will take care of itself.... EVERY politician EVER has run on that ideology, fix the "problem" now, worry about the consequences later.

[I Push Buttons]

Like the Democrats have a better plan? Spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and somehow magically the debt will take care of itself.... EVERY politician EVER has run on that ideology, fix the "problem" now, worry about the consequences later.

The Democrats try to balance the budget through increased taxes and better fiscal policy... Hence the moniker "tax and spend"... Actually achieving it at one point under Clinton...

While the Republicans campaign on cutting spending and cutting taxes to achieve a balanced budget while also shrinking the federal government... Then they get into office and only cut taxes, usually on the wealthy... And then not only do they not cut spending, usually they expand it.

[Lahis]

Yep. It's mostly 3rd World countries that have the highest birth rates. Places like the US, most of Europe, SKorea, Japan, etc, have some of the lowest birth rates, and I believe it's declining each year. Which is fine, until it starts to affect society and future generations.

We are pretty much fucked already. Popping millions of kids now will not save us from Boomer's retirement, because it'll take them two decades to reach the workforce.

[Ishayu]

When you said that not having kids will lead to population decline I asked you: what is it to you?
You fail to answer a simple question two times in a row.
You want your nation to succeed? Succeed in what? What is it to you?
Can you answer a simple question without using abstract ideas?

I want it to succeed because when I compare its cultural values to those around it, I believe it has some of the best chances in the world of providing a stable and peaceful world to those that come after, in the same way that it did to me. It's called being thankful. You're basically being a narcisstictic asshole. I hope you don't take offense at that (although you probably will) but instead re-evaluate what you're doing. Keep in mind that I don't mean to imply that there should be no time for fun.

Since you're asking me to explain why I even care about the future at all after I'm dead, I cannot answer that. No human can. You've asked me to give an answer to a question that humans haven't been able to come up with tens of thousands of years, and now you're mad I can't answer it? Honestly, fuck off.

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Sure, ask questions, and then cut any opportunity to answer short by your own answer. The art of debating on MMO-C.

I'll answer regardless. *GASP* How dare I, right?

What makes it inevitable? We're about 7 billions on this planet. Even if a proportion of the population stops to procreate, this number will keep on increasing because there will always be a sizeable number of the population that WILL procreate. Which WILL create overpopulation before we get a chance to find those magical "alternate dimensions" you mentioned. That issue will create a shortage of resources at a certain point, which would in turn lead to a population decrease, whether controlled (but socially opposed by people ignoring the issue) or as a consequence of letting things go (ie: mass famine, civil/global wars for resources, social collapse).

It happens in the animal kingdom. Just because we can do more than animals doesn't mean we're 100% shielded from that cycle.

But hey, don't take my word for it; I don't expect you to. I expect you to twist it and ridicule it.

Unless you give us the secret to those "alternate dimensions" so we can end up dwelling there. You seem quite well-versed on the topic, so I'll let you explain how we can get there, savior of humanity.

I accept all of this. Doesn't mean I accept that it has to be my nation's native population that has to decline, though. Especially since we're not that densily populated to begin with.

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The thing is, not everyone has the same amount of kids. Some have 1, some have 6. Some have 0. If all the 0's started having kids as well, out population growth would increase more than it already has in the past hundreds of years. There is also the case of war, disease, and other causes of premature death that helps keep things in check as well. These things are all a part of keeping our population under control.

Do you know what an average is? Do you think I actually claim that all women birth exaxtly 2 babies and 1/10th of another one, say plop up a leg or an arm and that thing grows up?

Sheesh.

[Mormolyce]

What is the purpose of life?

I seem to recall it being something about seeing your enemies driven before you and the lamentations of the women.

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Well, realistically what is the point of amassing vast wealth if your not fulfilling literally the only inborn instructions you come with?

If you think about it, everything we do is just another form of masturbation.

[Deleted]

Though when you are dead, nothing really matters as you don't exists anymore.

Part of you still exist in your kids. No kids, you dont exist anymore.

[Elim Garak]

I want it to succeed because when I compare its cultural values to those around it, I believe it has some of the best chances in the world of providing a stable and peaceful world to those that come after, in the same way that it did to me. It's called being thankful. You're basically being a narcisstictic asshole. I hope you don't take offense at that (although you probably will) but instead re-evaluate what you're doing. Keep in mind that I don't mean to imply that there should be no time for fun.

You didn't answer my question though. What is it to you? Why do you care what happens after you die? Is your life so empty that you need the "bright future" to give you meaning in life?

I seem to recall it being something about seeing your enemies driven before you and the lamentations of the women.

Judging by biographies of successful people that seems about right.

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Part of you still exist in your kids. No kids, you dont exist anymore.

That's nonsense. You don't exist, kids or no kids.
And as far as parts of me go, as I said earlier in this thread - the fucking fundamental particles that constitute my body will carry on till the end of the universe. After I die my body will be returned to the system - the vicious circle of life - to give sustenance to new life. Kids? They will die. And their kids will die and at some point your entire pointless lineage will die out and you won't be around to proclaim "Look how far I procreated. Here's my score! What's yours?". There's no score.

[Teleros]

There's nothing "narcissistic and antisocial" about living life the way you want.

Of course there is.

It's narcissistic because you're caring only about yourself and your own pleasure. The OP is entirely about how much money you could spend on stuff you want to do if you didn't have kids to raise.

And it's antisocial because, well, you're not exactly contributing to society, are you? The most fundamental way you can do that is to raise the next generation, but choosing to not have kids is diametrically opposed to this, hence antisocial.

There's no "obligation" to do any such thing. That pension is earned through working, not by having kids.

I'm afraid not. All the money you put towards your state pension when you pay National Insurance or whatever other taxes fund it actually goes towards paying the current crop of pensions, and is NOT stuck in a bank to earn interest for you when you retire. Private pensions work that way, but state ones are just government-designed pyramid schemes.

That means in order to get your pension, you need a workforce - preferably a larger one than was around when you began work, because people tend to keep living longer, meaning they have more years in which to draw their pensions, and a smaller workforce will thus force each individual taxpayer to pay more each year to support you. It's already at unsustainable levels throughout the West TBH.

= + =

You understand in most countries those that don't have kids pay far more taxes than those that do have kids.

So? No kids = no next generation.

Oh sure, some people won't have kids, will pay more in taxes, and may thus be a net positive influence on a country's finances within their lifetimes, but it's not going to do any good if too many people start acting like that.

Also, note that the OP is talking about early retirement and such based on the savings accumulated by not having kids. Doesn't exactly reek of noblesse oblige and putting in 60 hour weeks .

You are just a slave to biology so there is no point having a civil discussion with you.

Say what now?

[Realitytrembles]

Fourth, if you really think raising a child is merely an economic calculation, and that all the love and joy and pain and all the rest doesn't count because you can't measure it (let alone in dollars)... you're an idiot.

I can get the first 2 of those 3 elsewhere, and the 3rd can go f off.

My main point: as long as I would be the one having to pay for them, no kids. My money is mine.

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Since you're asking me to explain why I even care about the future at all after I'm dead, I cannot answer that. No human can. You've asked me to give an answer to a question that humans haven't been able to come up with tens of thousands of years, and now you're mad I can't answer it? Honestly, fuck off.

Those people in the past can't answer it, and you can't answer it because ..... there is no answer. As I've said elsewhere, whatever happens to this mudball after I die, I don't give a sht. You people are on your own.

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I always thought that people who didn't want to have children because of money when they can afford it was inherently selfish.

You're dmned right it is. I earned it, I'll do as I like with it.

[Deleted]

As this chart (from 2013, so might be even worse today) estimates, raising a child from 0-18 will cost you a small fortune. People often have multiple children, so it's just crazy expensive.

So what if you would not have children and save up the money instead? You could retire a rich man/women at a young age?

What if:

Your kid becomes some singer/sportsstar/entrepreneur and you get a nice car from em, just because your relationship is good?

It turns out to be the best investment ever in that case(also because, you won't become some lonely ass during your pension, when money is less valuable).

[Ishayu]

Those people in the past can't answer it, and you can't answer it because ..... there is no answer. As I've said elsewhere, whatever happens to this mudball after I die, I don't give a sht. You people are on your own.

You didn't answer my question though. What is it to you? Why do you care what happens after you die? Is your life so empty that you need the "bright future" to give you meaning in life?

I find it ironic that you have the temerity to tell me that my life is empty is because I want to do good by other people around me. My life is far from empty - yours is. You're just sitting here consuming resources for your own self interest.

If it doesn't matter what happens after you die, why not just kill yourself? You don't care that your family will miss you, right? And you don't care about all the joys you could have in life, because you'll lose memory of them all and it won't matter anyway?

You're asking me to argue in favour of the will to live, and you're callign my life empty while doing it. Ridiculous!

[Lahis]

If it doesn't matter what happens after you die, why not just kill yourself? You don't care that your family will miss you, right? And you don't care about all the joys you could have in life, because you'll lose memory of them all and it won't matter anyway?

People can enjoy themselves in the present, and can want to keep enjoying it as long as possible. Doesn't mean they need to worry about shit that happens after they are gone because they will never experience it.

[Deleted]

It's not like if you don't have kids, after 18 years a small fortune will just drop on top of you. Also unrealistic that you will go ahead and save up the money that you would have spent for a kid. You will just spend it on something else.

On the other hand, I totally support not having a kid until you know that you can support him for at least 18 years

[Elim Garak]

I find it ironic that you have the temerity to tell me that my life is empty is because I want to do good by other people around me.

Nope. It's not about doing good to people around you. It's about doing good to people around the building that will be constructed over your grave.

My life is far from empty - yours is. You're just sitting here consuming resources for your own self interest.

For whose interest should I consume resources other than my own? Yours? Show me how not empty you outlook on your life is. What have you accomplished for YOURSELF in this life? Is there anything or everything you do is dedicated to the good for people in the future?

If it doesn't matter what happens after you die, why not just kill yourself? You don't care that your family will miss you, right? And you don't care about all the joys you could have in life, because you'll lose memory of them all and it won't matter anyway?

What a silly question. Obviously I want to enjoy my short and only life. Why would I kill myself? At least what I do with my life have meaning to the only person who cares about my life. Me. What you do with your life have no meaning to you because you won't enjoy to fruits of your labor, and those who would enjoy your fruits - will not care about the gardener. I.e. you.

You're asking me to argue in favour of the will to live, and you're callign my life empty while doing it. Ridiculous!

No, I'm telling you that your aims in life are misguided. Focus within. What is it you are living for that's worth living for to YOU. Because nobody else will worry about that.

[Beardless Man]

People who don't want to have children are huge manchildren/womanchildren themselves, unable to grow up.

But hey it's just my opinion.

Well, there's a small group of people who personally do not want children. Either by choice, or physically cannot have children. Personally, I aim to have kids one day. But at this point, without a house of my own, without a stable position in life. I'd rather delay that until I'm happy to try. (I also need to find a significant other, because I refuse to be a single parent.)

[Theodarzna]

If you think about it, everything we do is just another form of masturbation.

It is weird, in a world/life that offers us almost no inborn purpose or meaning this person sneeringly mocks possibly the only "purpose in life" the world actually bothered to give us.

In an Existential sense, you are handed a task, possibly the only thing the universe will simply just give you and you go "NAH!" Like anything else you're likely to do in life will have any meaning anyway.