US military would shoot Americans if ordered to

[Deleted]

you mean,
Soldiers will follow orders.


No fucking supersize there then.

[Wildtree]

You could replace 'US' and 'Americans' with any country and this debate would be the same.

Also the US National Guard is not the US military.

The US military can not operate within America except I imagine in the most extreme of nation-threatening circumstances, hence why the National Guard exists in the first place.

Typical Retarded Mis-Informed Dribble-fest MMO-C thread.

Fun with facts..
While the bold part is true for the Army and the Air Force, it's not so for the US Navy and the US Marine Corps.
The PC act doesn't make mention of all branches of the military.

Plus, if we've learned one thing from history... Theory is out the window pretty fast. Tyrants don't care about existing laws.
Any existing legislation is subject to change or even dismissal.
FFS.. If you wanna play that fictional scenario through here for a moment. The US is actually pretty vulnerable currently.
You have a congress with an approval rate in the 10s.
Since congress obviously doesn't get anything done, pretty much all Americans agree on that part already.
All it needs is someone charismatic enough, saying the right things to the population, and they'll get the electorates blessing to oust the two houses.
Bam.. there's your set up for a tyrant.
Tyrants usually don't gain power through violence. They gain it through approval. The people vote them into power.
Now, I cannot see this to happen in the US, since despite the ideal conditions for a tyrant, there simply isn't one such person anywhere to see.
Not even, or especially not Trump. He's just an idiot who acts as if he wants to be like Louis XIV (minus the brains).

[ParanoiD84]

Hey orders are orders.

[Ghostpanther]

You can't protect the nation and constitution by doing Trump's bidding though.

In psychology we call that brainwashing.

If it is Constitutional, of course you can.

I call it reality based on experience. The most trusted opinion. I will take that over someone who has not had the experience.

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The way things are looking, they would likely shoot the critical thinkers and anyone who has anything of value (so that it could be confiscated for the "good of the motherland" (i.e. lining the pockets of those in power). Have doubt? Read human history.

Makes no difference if it is. If they are a attacking the Constitution in violent ways and are a threat to others safety, then they should be attacked.

[Ghostpanther]

Cult-members also think their cult is the best thing ever. That doesn't prove much.

Sure it does. They should know from experience what the cult teaches and the results. Some of the best lessons from such has come from former members of a cult. Who actually know.

[Wallmaker Yahzarah]

"I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

Pretty much says it all

Lol Nice misinterp twerp. That line is not designated as a foreign individual, or a domestic individual. It is of foreign enemy conflict and of domestic brought conflict you retard. But hey... CNN and Fox can only teach you so much.

[Jericho21]

As a former US Navy service member, nope I would ignore that unlawful order because I could not in good conscious do it. Now, if it's a US citizen trying to harm me, or other US citizens in an egregious manner (OKC bombing, etc) then yes I would follow that order. But shoot protesters (who are non-violent)? Nope. If it becomes violent, one would think the 5-O would be there right? Especially after Charlottesville one could surmise that the 5-O are gonna be on point with these protests.

Also, weekend warriors =/= US military

[Deleted]

There is somehow a popular fantasy in the US that says the military is a bastion of moral fortitude and righteousness and that if ordered to commit certain acts they would just refuse to comply.

I think that it is BS.

First of all, there is a precedent for this :



US army is known for numerous problems it causes abroad like rape cases in Japan, opaque rules of engagement, civilian drone bombing, etc etc
And as the Chelsea manning case has demonstrated, the legal system is not very kind with the people actually doing the right thing by exposing misconduct (they'll just accuse you of endangering troops while calling you a traitor and throw you in jail).

But this right here is a recorded event of the army shooting unarmed American college students protesting a WAR.
It doesn't get more white and black than this, those protesters were completely in their good rights and that didn't stop armed grunt from spraying full auto in the crowd.

Now with servicemen being prosecuted with the full might of the martial law at any hint of disobedience + a very sketchy record when it comes to ethics, do you really believe the army would refuse to pick a side, should any civil war type conflict happens in the US ? That's wishful thinking

"It can't happen here" is a very dangerous thing to give faith in

SDS were commies.

We've seen here at the city of Kent especially, probably the most vicious form of campus-oriented violence yet perpetrated by dissident groups. They make definite plans of burning, destroying, and throwing rocks at police and at the National Guard and the Highway Patrol. This is when we're going to use every part of the law enforcement agency of Ohio to drive them out of Kent. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. And these people just move from one campus to the other and terrorize the community. They're worse than the brown shirts and the communist element and also the night riders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. Now I want to say this. They are not going to take over [the] campus. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America.

Can't really blame them. Killing commies is American culture after all.
Oh, and that bold part reminds me of something.

[Fencers]

Well, at least you have to ask the military to shoot citizens. Cops do it without being told.

[Wildtree]

Also, weekend warriors =/= US military

This genuinely confuses me.
Americans in general have that military glorifying culture. In most countries being a soldier is just another job, much like plumber, electrician, cop, baker, what not..
How come that the National Guard gets labeled so derogatory even by members of the military?
Makes no sense to me at all.
Active force, reserve force.. All are part of the force.

[Ghostpanther]

Well, at least you have to ask the military to shoot citizens. Cops do it without being told.

In 99% of the time it is justified.

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This genuinely confuses me.
Americans in general have that military glorifying culture. In most countries being a soldier is just another job, much like plumber, electrician, cop, baker, what not..
How come that the National Guard gets labeled so derogatory even by members of the military?
Makes no sense to me at all.
Active force, reserve force.. All are part of the force.

The active military live it daily. The weekend warriors do not. Not hard to understand. Myself, I respect them both for their service.

[Daws]

So an example of US military shooting civilians from 1970 committed by the national guard. That's almost 50 years ago, if your going to try and make a point at least use current day examples.

[shrunken]

Now with servicemen being prosecuted with the full might of the martial law at any hint of disobedience

the services have never been more lax in their enforcement of rules than they are today. also, 'martial law' isn't the phrase you were looking for.

[sam86]

and which country army won't obey the command of their superiors ?

[Wildtree]

The active military live it daily. The weekend warriors do not.

Not everyone serving is deployed.
Means, they too don't live it daily.

Not hard to understand.

Not hard to see, but hard to understand. Boils down to respect.
And if it comes to that, there's a hypocrisy in place. Which I pointed out.

Myself, I respect them both for their service.

Which I think, is the right approach.

[Ghostpanther]

Not everyone serving is deployed.
Means, they too don't live it daily.
Not hard to see, but hard to understand. Boils down to respect.
And if it comes to that, there's a hypocrisy in place. Which I pointed out.


Which I think, is the right approach.

Not true. I served 3 years in the Army, was never deployed. But I did live it daily to the degree I had a specific military role job I did every day and at times, was restricted to the base I was assigned to. And was on call for combat action 24 hrs, every day.

[Wildtree]

Not true. I served 3 years in the Army, was never deployed. But I did live it daily to the degree I had a specific military role job I did every day and at times, was restricted to the base I was assigned to. And was on call for combat action 24 hrs, every day.

Yeah man, that's understood.

But there's definitely no difference whatsoever between a member of the National Guard and a member of the Army reserve.
As by my observation, the common citizen regard Military members equally. Military members however discriminate against other military members.
That's just idiotic imo.

For myself, while the work is definitely different, one doesn't deserve more respect than the other. Means the other definitely doesn't deserve to be devalued.

[Ghostpanther]

Yeah man, that's understood.

But there's definitely no difference whatsoever between a member of the National Guard and a member of the Army reserve.
As by my observation, the common citizen regard Military members equally. Military members however discriminate against other military members.
That's just idiotic imo.

For myself, while the work is definitely different, one doesn't deserve more respect than the other. Means the other definitely doesn't deserve to be devalued.

There is also the matter of the degree of training and other things. You can enlist for the Reserves for example up to the age of 40. It is 35 for the active Army. And there is a difference in the training a Ranger gets in reference to the Infantry, etc. I do agree the respect should be the same. The degree of admiration however ( yes some do have admiration for those who serve ) can vary. I admire someone who has become a Navy Seal for example over the supply clerk. The requirements are much more tougher to pass to become a Navy Seal. Does not mean the supply clerk does not have a important job however.

[Adam Jensen]

You're conflating the US Military with the National Guard? ("weekend warriors")
Seriously?

National Guard and Reserves deploy as much as Active Duty, so try again.

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That's what they are molded to be

To kill without hesitation, and to follow orders.

Shit like "naw I'm not gonna run over there, that's dangerous' or 'awww that guy looks like my grandpa I'm not gonna shoot at him' are meant to be dispelled

That's not true either. Our oath of enlistment is to obey the lawful orders of our superior. Lawful is a key word there. We're also trained to disobey orders that are unlawful and unethical.

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I was appointed as a warrant officer in October of 2015. Before we took our oath of office the Colonel stood up in front of all of us and posed a question.

"What would all of you do if we had a really close election, and after numerous recounts, a clear winner could not be determined. Say the sitting President who's two terms were complete, said he's throwing out the election results, remaining in power for another year until another election can be held, and he ordered the Army to secure Washington. Would you follow those orders?" I raised my hand and said no. When he asked me to explain I said the the Constitution provides that if no majority is obtained, Congress shall elect the President.

He then said "This is correct. All of you are going to take an oath of office tomorrow. That oath will not be the President, to your superior officers, or to the will of the American people. It will be to the Constitution. I'm giving you a copy of the constitution after you take your oaths. Read it. Understand it. You are bound to it, as is every other soldier, sailor, marine or airman who takes the same oath."

Not exactly the kind of lesson a commander gives to a bunch of mindless robots is it?

And we have a winner.

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What are you even on about now? Is the post count a desireable thing I'm supposed to be concerned about?

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Not to mention we'd be told weapons draw is at 0430 and the armorer wouldn't show up until 0700. Meanwhile the ammo dude would have a family emergency and nobody would make a backup plan so we'd be left there waiting for hours throwing rocks at an empty helmet. Let's face it, we'd be terrible at murdering our own people.

So . . . Army is as inefficient as the Air Force. Good to know.

[judgementofantonidas]

Idk man , the army isnt well known for recruiting the smartest people when it comes to finding whos gonna be the meatgrinder
Most of the people i know who are in the army are either here for racist reasons or because they didnt receive a proper education in their youth

you don't make it to the the top without some form of education anymore. you just won't be competative on the list.

I am far from a racist and hold a bachelor degree in business management as well as 6G weld cetification. I will soon be retiring from the Army after having given it 20 years. Yes there is a lot of dead weight. No it does not rise to the top.