Poland calls for WWII reparations talks with Germany, mooting trillion dollar payment

[Hiricine]

The idea that people today should pay for things that happened in the past by completely different people to pay for things they aren't profiting from now is silly. I get it if Germany had seized a bunch of Polish property and the German people today were profiting, but this is very clearly trying to make the son pay for the sins of the father. While we're at it lets just throw all the children of criminals who didn't finish their sentence into prison (though you could make a great argument to put the parents of criminals in prison).

[Rudkobing]

1 trillion dollars.......

That should be easy to get. /sarcasm off

[Deleted]

As was stated in another post, such claims do not become outdated in the light of international law. So the comparison isn't really precise, I just said grandfather because these were grandfathers of current generation of Germans that fought in the WW2, but if we take it to the historical scale where 70 years does in fact not matter much, it should be a case of a middle aged person apologizing for the acts of his mad father.

70 years in what historic scale ? the "i think this amount is a good time" scale ? there are well documented wars more then 500 years in the past, why not start demanding reparations there ? i mean in the historic scale jesus was born about 2000 years ago, i would say it's fair to start counting from there, so 500 years ago would put a person around 20-25 if going by human lifespans, perfectly reasonable to demand a 25 year old to own up to his/her mistake, so while where at it let american citizens send some reparations to the natives (not some "here, have a nice new health center and 5 bucks a month, more like i don't know, all of the GDP of the usa, obviously the natives would have hit it big without the settlers) may aswell do some settlements for the crusades while where at it, can just send money left and right between all sides, and the uk may please start to pump out twice as much money as the rest of the world combined for all the colonization great britain did, that's sure to be a costly one.

fact of the matter is, these things where indeed settled (by the victors, on the victors terms) that some people didn't want to piss of their russian overlords back then so they kept shut is not the fault of the german people, go demand money from russia/usa/uk/france cause they didn't get you a better deal back then

[Deleted]

Thats great. Im calling for reparations from Spain that occupied and destroyed my country for 80 years. or when the nazies took it for a few years or when the romans ruled it for 400 years or when or when?
Etc.
How bout we stop this stupid shit?

[Deleted]

Since Germany along with the EU have been making demands that Poland take in refugees or else I say Poland should stick it to them.

Then just exclude that money sink from the EU. EU wins. Poland goes back to horse carriages. Maybe if Poland wasn´t on EU welfare they could make demands. Otherwise they can suck it.

[Erbel]

Good for Poland. If Merkel is going to continue to demand they take in rapefugees then they should get more money out of it. Hit them with their own shit.

[AeneasBK]

Good for Poland. If Merkel is going to continue to demand they take in rapefugees then they should get more money out of it. Hit them with their own shit.

Poland already gets that money. Derpy derpy doo etc. etc.

[Erbel]

Poland already gets that money. Derpy derpy doo etc. etc.

Hence the "more". Reading comprehension derpy derpy doo etc. etc.

[ati87]

The idea that people today should pay for things that happened in the past by completely different people to pay for things they aren't profiting from now is silly. I get it if Germany had seized a bunch of Polish property and the German people today were profiting, but this is very clearly trying to make the son pay for the sins of the father. While we're at it lets just throw all the children of criminals who didn't finish their sentence into prison (though you could make a great argument to put the parents of criminals in prison).

Look outside if Germany has to pay anything to Poland has to pay anything you really don't put a timetable to reparations or loans between countries.

For example it took Britain 61 years to pay back the Marshal plan loan to the US, they payed back the last installment in 2006. Sure the money they paid was a fraction of what's worth today but that's a calculated risk a country takes when they give out a massive loan to another country.

The alternative would be to demand full payment which will never happen and hence why these kind of payments will stretcht half a century.

Also I dislike you're phrasing of ''sins of the farther'' the idea that society today doesn't benefit or suffer from sins of the past is beyond ridiculous. In the US schools are funded with property tax, so poor area's which historically are african-american area's thanks to centuries of racism and jim crow, get less funding for public schools and having a proper education is the first step to avoid poverty.

Don't get me wrong, I'm against this and Poland can get a middle-finger instead regarding payments (so can greece btw) but you're arguments of why are short-sighted at best.

[Ravenblade]

My maternal grandma's family had to leave their ancient home of Pomerania back then and they never got any recompensations, on the contrary, in the GDR you were pretty much expected to shut up about it. I'd say they already paid their dues.

On a more serious note: Claims like these are difficult to enforce due to international laws and that countries are different type of corporations than say a company. Also they are not always based on reasonable motives other than nationalist feelings which is usually reflected by the size of the demands levelled. The problem is that the aspect of compensations and reparations are wholly different issues. The first one is basically quid pro quo, 1 pt. of damage is basically paid with 1 € so to speak, the other one is more based on ideal values not just material ones and can be paid by giving up territories, goods, resource - anything material but also ideal values (pieces of art, patents etc.). They are more of a giant fine and seeing territories are gone already it's hard to believe there's still 1 trillion dollars still pending.

The problem is that Poland did suffer the same fate as the East of Germany - the DDR - (which did actually pay reparations to Poland) by being under the hood of the Soviet bloc but after 1990 Germany ended up as different entity making anything which the DDR had done null and void. However there were several occasions where Poland and Germany declared the question of reparations and compensations as settled. Going against that line would really require rolling back the entire process going back to Yalta and restarting the whole reparations payment process not just for Poland but for anyone who was left out. However even if that were possible: Germany would take it all back later since it is in a much stronger position than it was back then. It could literally end up as selling as zero sum game. It's what basically happened with WWI reparations for Germany which it did pay in full in the end it hardly hurt them at all since it was already ending up back in their pockets.

[AeneasBK]

Hence the "more". Reading comprehension derpy derpy doo etc. etc.

Hence the "that" but fair cop you aren't a native English speaker.

Unless you meant "because they are taking migrants and getting money for it; they should get more money for the migrants but because of WW2"?

You can I assume see how that doesn't make sense, right

[Mehrunes]

Well, first of all, Germany will sooner turn to Nazism rather than actually pay for their crimes the last time they did so. Secondly, PiS is demanding it for all the wrong reasons. They are doing it only in response to Germany (and the rest of EU) demanding that Poland fulfills its legal obligations to the union, as well as daring to criticize the Polish government for trying to turn Poland into an authoritarian shithole. Which is perfectly accurate, but it triggers Kaczyński. Then there's the local elections on the horizon, so it's also time to start spinning and deflecting with that in mind. At least Waszczykowski started to properly support his argument with how this was imposed by the USSR, rather than continuing his incorrect, sad hurrdurring about how Poland wasn't sovereign (since technically speaking, it was).

Pretty much, yes. They had their chance, they missed it.
End of story.

There is no expiration date on reparations.

Today's Germans are sick and tired of the WW-II fallout.

It must totally suck when most of Germany bounced back to prosperity thanks to Marshall Plan, while Poland was left in ruins thanks to Germans and their Russian (at the time they invaded Poland) buddies. Dat fallout. Oh noes, someone points out the historical reality of what Germany used to be and in the process exposes the skeletons in their closet they'd like to pretend never existed. What an utterly traumatized experience it must be for poor, oppressed Germans. In fact, they are the victims in all of this, including WWII itself.

If anything, Germany should get East Brandenburg, Farther Pomerania, East Prussia, Upper Silesia & Lower Silesia back.

Because they lost a war of aggression they started? Besides, Silesia was Polish (and then Czech) even before it became German.

They can fuck off ? They wanted War they got it they got destroyed. Deal with it

Should give Germanys Territory back

Umm, Germany is the one who wanted and and who then started the war. Which is why they lost that land (most of which used to be Polish earlier anyway).

Poland should pay reparations for invading czechoslovakia.
They should then pay further reparations for doing so again in 1968 with their German,Russian allies.

Except Poland didn't invade Czechoslovakia... Czechoslovakia was the one who attacked Poland in 1919 (over lands they already agreed to cede to Poland no less). Annexation of whole of Zaolzie in 1938 happened without a military intervention. As for Warsaw Pact intervention, it's not like any non-USSR countries had any say in it. Not only was the Warsaw Pact not legally constructed in a way that would have allowed it, there was also the part of the Russian duress.

A welfare state? No, Polish government doesn't care about welfares or anything that'd actually help the population in any way. Their only objective is to secure their rule and leech as much as possible during their term.

That's why they try to butcher the justice system - so no one will have legal basis to oppose them.
That's why they're cutting the last primeval forest in the plain part of Europe. Those plywood manufactories t\hat belong to some brother-in-law or cousin can have their 'cheap' material out of trees which survived particions, two world wars and planned economy.
That's why they destroy state companies, educational system and military - so thousands of people lose their jobs or at least have future of their jobs uncertain.
That's why they create a wierd mix of a state religion and a cult of personality, all with regular rituals and all with their own mythos - so they create an illusion of legitimacy.
That's why they've introduced the most viral welfare ever, that's why they have clergy as close advisors, that's why they're eurosceptic, that's why they're now demanding reparations from Germany - all for populism, so those catholic, xenophobic and without an actual sense of consequences people will vote for them. It's not important that the country is in political crisis, divided, internationally ostracized, and on a straight line to bankrupcy; the most important thing is that Germans are finally being 'punished', there's no Arabs, they get 500PLN for each kid, and the military draft will most likely come back which will teach those fucking teens how to be a true, wife-beating, God-loving Pole.

Quoted for truth. It's kinda depressing that there are so many of the people you talk about at the end in Poland that PiS still has a majority support in polls, even after a 2 years of cluster-fuck.

Doesn't eastern Germany count as payment? Poland got a huge landmass after WOII.

I guess they want to trade it back for money then? You can't have it both ways.

They lost even more in the east to USSR. Which is exactly why USSR gave Eastern Prussia and Silesia to Poland.

Hm, when several other countries suffered the same if not worse and raised themselves from decimation, why can't Poland do the same? Reason is their economy which is why it doesn't feel genuine either. Rather than try and fix it even if they ask it on the grounds of emitting them into a better stance and establishment in World Trade, they try to subjugate others and blame them for their shortcomings.

You may believe they deserve it. But no other country gave each other money as compensation for a great tragedy all because one man who lived in Germany and was actually bloody Austria national, who had to earn his Germanic citizenship.

Except Poland was the most devastated country in Europe after WWII. It also lost the most population in terms of percentages, which led to a lot of productivity going down the drain. Also, unlike western Europe, it didn't receive the golden post-war parachute of Marshall Plan. Then there's this thing called communism. Few decades of it, combined with thralldom to USSR. The comparison to UK from earlier post is particularly retarded, since it's an island nation that the Germans didn't manage to invade. No way, a country that saw little destruction fared better than the one who saw the most of it. Better yet, a country that was still a colonial empire vs a country that just barely became independent after WWI mere twenty years earlier after being occupied by three different countries. Which meant having to reunify three parts (all of which were ravaged by WWI) that were at three different stage of development and had three different administrative models. Or even basic infrastructure like railways. Hell, you even leave things at "but economy" as if your infinitely wise conclusion was all there was to it without asking yourself why Polish post-war economy was so shit.

if your grandfather shit on your neighbors doormat before you where born you would feel obliged to go over there and hand them cake and an apology ? people don't all go "oh it wasn't me, suck it" , they tell you they weren't even born when the act happened/the few that were were mostly children ( i doubt there are a lot of posters here that where legal adults during ww2) and after the whole shebang was done this things in fact got settled on mutually agreed upon terms, it's just that 70 years later nations that could use some money boost suddenly remember that they didn't think what was agreed upon 70 years ago was fair to them.

Those people who weren't born there still benefited economically from Germany skirting on reparation payments, be it via some barely documented deal with USSR, or by saying "we will pay when Germany is reunited" only to pull "oops, too late" after said reunification happened like they did to Greece (then there's benefiting from the things they stole during the occupation).

the situation we have is not "your grandpa shitting on your neighbors doormat and you visiting your neighbor the next day saying sorry, gramps is a nut, have a cake" but "remember when my gramps took a shit at your front door ? yes, it was 20 years ago and i wasn't born then, also gramps visited you himself after it had settled down a bit and told you sorry, he was just drunk of his ass while handing you a fruit basket, you remember yes ? well i wanted to say sorry, i really mean it, let me buy you a new front door, i'm sure you can still smell gramps shit otherwise"

Except in this comparison, the (eastern half of) grandpa didn't hand any fruits since the slave master of both that part of grandpa as well as the home-owner forced them both to drop the matter before grandpa offered even a picture of a fruit basket. And what exactly would be the recent offer of a new door in this comparison?

Wouldn't Russia owe a lot more than Germany??

While zealo's earlier reply to you is right that this thing is mostly political, in regards to your actual question, not really. Unless you count few decades of communism, but how do you precisely count that? But when it comes to WWII alone, Germany destroyed Poland to a greater degree than USSR. They even pushed Russians out of the part of Poland they invaded in 1939, with entirety of Poland being under German oppression for half of the war.

I'm not trying to downplay the plight of the Polish people under Nazi Germany, but wasn't most of the overall damage to Poland done by the Soviet Union while trying to conquer (note: not liberate) it from the Nazis?

Nope. Either Germans oppressing Poland (single largest damaging event was the almost complete destruction of west-shore Warsaw during the uprising, where USSR involvement in the destruction would be them sitting idly on the east bank of Vistula) or Germans destroying land out of spite while Russians pushed them west.

I highly doubt reparations would ever be paid out at all, as they make no sense at this point. However, if they were owed, it would be from Russia to Poland, I would think? (Note: excluding Polish Jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc - I'm excluding the holocaust here because it's too complex a topic to mix the two).

There is no expiration on reparations. And even if you excluded Polish Jews etc. for some reason, as if the deaths of over 8% of Poland's population didn't economically fuck it for decades, Nazis killed tens of millions of people, the Holocaust does not account for even half of their victims. Discounting 3 million Polish Jews, another 3 million Polish citizens also died, most of them at the hands of the Germans.

Even still - I'm sure if Poland is in really dire straights (as this suggests) they could probably just offer to join Germany as provinces? I feel like Germany would be down with that - even if it meant supporting the Polish people in the short-term and getting their standard of living up to German parity.

Poland isn't struggling economically. This is political. And German sovereignty over Polish land has rather tainted history even without counting the Nazis.

I'll never understand how they think this can every seriously be paid - not just Poland, but anyone who is looking for "reparations for past actions" - i.e. slavery, etc. How am I going to ever want to pay for my great-grandfather's actions - and to whom it is paid to?

It'd be Germany paying for its own actions. Pretty simple concept. Just because different tax-payers would fill Germany's coffers doesn't make current Germany not a successor of the Third Reich. A state, as a legal entity, has its own obligations. As for individual Germans not wanting to pay, tough shit, they have only their great-grandfathers to blame for them being genocidal shitstains, not the people their great-grandparents tried to eradicate. Those Germans must be super traumatized after benefiting for decades from Nazis first plundering Poland during the occupation and then attempting to leech it dry when the were forced to retreat by the Soviets, without having to pay it back.

"Your forefathers owe us money" is going to be as effective here as "You're long lost cousins, get along" is going to be in Korea.

Except it's the state of Germany that would owe it, not individual Nazis.

The idea that people today should pay for things that happened in the past by completely different people to pay for things they aren't profiting from now is silly. I get it if Germany had seized a bunch of Polish property and the German people today were profiting, but this is very clearly trying to make the son pay for the sins of the father. While we're at it lets just throw all the children of criminals who didn't finish their sentence into prison (though you could make a great argument to put the parents of criminals in prison).

So you acknowledge that people from Germany today were profiting from Third Reich's actions even though your point is about (not) paying for past things? Great internal coherence. And while we don't throw the children of criminal into prisons, we most certainly transfer debt of parents onto their children.

fact of the matter is, these things where indeed settled (by the victors, on the victors terms) that some people didn't want to piss of their russian overlords back then so they kept shut is not the fault of the german people, go demand money from russia/usa/uk/france cause they didn't get you a better deal back then

There's no paper trail that shows Polish involvement in the deal with Eastern Germany. There's barely anything solid on the USSR-Eastern Germany one. And just because the Big Four fucked Poland over doesn't negate the fact the damage itself was done by the Germans, which kinda makes it their fault.

Then just exclude that money sink from the EU. EU wins. Poland goes back to horse carriages. Maybe if Poland wasn´t on EU welfare they could make demands. Otherwise they can suck it.

Germany's reparations are entirely separate matter from EU budget. A budget that all EU countries, Germany included, accepted.

[Deleted]

They did not Start the Aggression...... Stop this fucking Lie

[cubby]

It'd be Germany paying for its own actions. Pretty simple concept.

All evidence to the contrary, lol. Love it when people thing generational reparations are a "pretty simple concept".

Just because different tax-payers would fill Germany's coffers doesn't make current Germany not a successor of the Third Reich. A state, as a legal entity, has its own obligations. As for individual Germans not wanting to pay, tough shit, they have only their great-grandfathers to blame for them being genocidal shitstains, not the people their great-grandparents tried to eradicate. Those Germans must be super traumatized after benefiting for decades from Nazis first plundering Poland during the occupation and then attempting to leech it dry when the were forced to retreat by the Soviets, without having to pay it back.

So we are all responsible for our great-grandparents actions? You? Me? And how far back does that go?

And Germany isn't the same country as it was in 1930-1940's - so why do those people, who had no choice in whether their great-grandparents went to war or not, have to now pay for something they were never involved in?

[Noradin]

They lost even more in the east to USSR. Which is exactly why USSR gave Eastern Prussia and Silesia to Poland.

Then they should try and get their reperation from Russia, not from states that don't exists anymore, such as Prussia.

[cubby]

Then they should try and get their reperation from Russia, not from states that don't exists anymore, such as Prussia.

You know, when you think about it, Germany didn't really exist after WWII - divided as it was between the US and USSR. So Unified Germany is a new state. And didn't Poland get a big piece of Germany after the war?

[Deleted]

Except in this comparison, the (eastern half of) grandpa didn't hand any fruits since the slave master of both that part of grandpa as well as the home-owner forced them both to drop the matter before grandpa offered even a picture of a fruit basket. And what exactly would be the recent offer of a new door in this comparison?

then go complain to yours and grandpas slave master, there is no offer of a new door, never said there was, the question is why should there be ? grandpa is dead and as you yourself said , grandpa as well as the homeowner where forced to drop the issue, that aspect isn't grandpas fault anymore then it is the homeowners

[Aliven]

The idea that people today should pay for things that happened in the past by completely different people to pay for things they aren't profiting from now is silly. I get it if Germany had seized a bunch of Polish property and the German people today were profiting, but this is very clearly trying to make the son pay for the sins of the father. While we're at it lets just throw all the children of criminals who didn't finish their sentence into prison (though you could make a great argument to put the parents of criminals in prison).

No, no. This is only to create "evil german" stereotype in Poland stronger. And by that entire EU. And also make stronger myth about Poland and polish people as a chosen nation, which struggle against entire evil world.

[Jokerfiend]

Don't they have a huge chunk of the former eastern territories of Germany as well?

I know this comes a couple of days late.

In Europa Universalis 4, if you play any of the Eastern European countries, Poland is a major power to deal with until Russia gets big enough to start craving away territory.

With the Teutonic Order and Konigsberg being a major part of Prussia, and early Germany, and you see the major objective for Poland is conquering it and becoming the Commonwealth with a Personal Union with Lithuania.

Poland succeeded in this endevour in the early 14th century.

Brandenburg and Prussia began shortly after in the late 15th and early 16th century, cutting off the trade routes in the Baltic for the Commonwealth, effectively killing it. This ensues a dire and drastic enemy for Poland for a very long time.

If you look back the history, Poland has always been the aggressor until the early 19th. Poland and Germany have been enemies for a very long time, and reparations aren't really needed.

If you give in to the blackmail, Poland will come back for more later.

[Noradin]

No, no. This is only to create "evil german" stereotype in Poland stronger. And by that entire EU. And also make stronger myth about Poland and polish people as a chosen nation, which struggle against entire evil world.

In short, he is trying ot copy Erdogan.