Angela Merkel backs end to EU-Turkey membership talks

[Masark]

Oh some people don't even know who Erdogan is fighting.

Kurds, people who prefer secular democracy over theocratic autocracy, and occasionally ISIS, whenever they aren't giving money to them.

[Slant]

If you have a different opinion please provide more....then ''you are not genuine''

But I'm kind of done, don't want to run in circles explaining the fact that when 1 side (the EU) makes it clear that Turkey wouldn't have really joined this little club that any argument people can make up afterwards is nothing but bullshit.

EU Made it clear, google the freaking articles at that time about various statements done by national leaders. If anybody dares to argue that asking for a referendum is anything but obstruction then please do so.

You're right. Turkey never stood a chance. But they begged, and moaned, and cried, so the EU formally started the process, gave Turkey a list of things to change and nothing was changed. And now Turkey's all offended'n'shit, despite the EU telling Turkey this would happen from the start. The EU not genuine? They were being polite. They gave Turkey a real chance, Turkey blew it. And you don't get to blame the EU for this.

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Kurds, people who prefer secular democracy over theocratic autocracy, and occasionally ISIS, whenever they aren't giving money to them.

You forgot "political opposition".

[Kallisto]

Some people will blame Turkey for this shit but that's not really fair given that the EU was never really serious to begin with. How you enter negotiations will determine the outcome

Because it IS Turkey's fault. They knew what to do to get into proper talks of joining. Most of which were simply put stop being a dick of a country. Stop illegal occupation and colonization of Northern Cyprus and admit your fuck ups between the years of 1900 and 1922 instead of arresting anyone who acknowledges such things happened. Basically join the 21st century like the rest of us.

[Toogoodman]

Turkey represents 0 of the values that the EU holds at its core, allowing a country like Turkey to join would be a slap in the face of everyone in the EU. Also, could you imagine unrestricted travel from Turkey into EU nations?

[Deleted]

While Turkey might have been a potential and maaaaybe somewhat suitable candidate to join at some point (though, even that is debatable), over the past years they have shown that they - as a country under their wannabe dictator - are not only not moving any closer to our values and the requirements set by the EU, but rather away from them.
I am of course aware that keeping the negotiations open can be important leverage when it comes to some issues, but ending them really is just the logical (and right) step.

[Malacrass]

The current german election campaign is pure comedy gold, especially the TV duel between the two candidates of the major parties of Merkel's CDU and Schulz' SPD who pretty much agree anyhow on anything.

Germany current government is a coalition between the large parties CDU und SPD. If any of those parties really would politically want something - like reducing taxes (as always right before some election) or spending more money on education - they could do so right now and could have done so for the last four years. So especially the junior partner SPD has to come up with surprises in attempts to gain voters.

And Schulz' no to Turkey membership talks is hillarious. "If I get chancellor, I will cease the talks". The only reason the german government has not yet the position of ceasing the talks is because the SPD was opposing it. This was a true wtf moment.
It's like Hillary would have been saying "You're right Mr. Trump, better get rid of obamacare".

To be fair, the situation with Erdogan escalated quickly and hard. It's one thing to trash talk about nazis, but we entered a completely different ballpark the moment Erdogan took hostages.

[Deleted]

Merkel will especially bullshit close to an election.
Fully expect her to plead submissivly to Turkeys after the election while Erdogan will try to use the refugees for even more blackmail and demands towards germany.

Pathetic tragicomedy.

[Slant]

While Turkey might have been a potential and maaaaybe somewhat suitable candidate to join at some point (though, even that is debatable), over the past years they have shown that they - as a country under their wannabe dictator - are not only not moving any closer to our values and the requirements set by the EU, but rather away from them.
I am of course aware that keeping the negotiations open can be important leverage when it comes to some issues, but ending them really is just the logical (and right) step.

When Turkey starts dangling EU membership over the EU's head as if it's something they can bribe us with, it gets to a point where everyone has to admit that it's really just a joke and call it quits. I think we're at that point now. The second he went spoiled child mode "Now we don't want into the EU and you have to convince us to join you!" the EU realised that their bluff was called and they got nothing. Luckily, the pot was like 10 cents, so nobody loses. Except the Turkish people. But if you believe their propaganda, they're the real winners here... *chuckles*

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Merkel will especially bullshit close to an election.
Fully expect her to plead submissivly to Turkeys after the election while Erdogan will try to use the refugees for even more blackmail and demands towards germany.

Pathetic tragicomedy.

Yes, because she's the submissive type.

[Deleted]

Yes, because she's the submissive type.

Whatever she is, it's only good for herself, her cronies and those that have influence over her.
No one else.

[Deleted]

When Turkey starts dangling EU membership over the EU's head as if it's something they can bribe us with, it gets to a point where everyone has to admit that it's really just a joke and call it quits. I think we're at that point now. The second he went spoiled child mode "Now we don't want into the EU and you have to convince us to join you!" the EU realised that their bluff was called and they got nothing. Luckily, the pot was like 10 cents, so nobody loses. Except the Turkish people. But if you believe their propaganda, they're the real winners here... *chuckles*

Erdogan thinking that we would try to convince them to join was never more than a joke, and a very, very bad one at that. It's ludicrous.
I never thought we should even consider letting Turkey join, as they are way too far away from our values, expectations etc. - but I do think the prospect that it might be possible did give the EU some leverage when it came to certain negotations, especially when it comes to handling refugees etc. However, I also question how serious it really was for a whole while now - I think most people were well aware and realized that it would never actually happen without either having a drastic change happening within Turkey or the EU substantially changing/lowering their requirements for whatever reason.

And yes, I agree. The only ones that might lose something are the Turkish people - but they made their bed by getting Erdogan to where he is now. As you sow, so you shall reap.

[Slant]

Whatever she is, it's only good for herself, her cronies and those that have influence over her.
No one else.

The last guys that thought they had "influence over her" are now curiously absent from the political landscape. She's not exactly known for her ability to be submissive. But you knew that and were just being sarcastic, weren't you?

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Erdogan thinking that we would try to convince them to join was never more than a joke, and a very, very bad one at that. It's ludicrous.
I never thought we should even consider letting Turkey join, as they are way too far away from our values, expectations etc. - but I do think the prospect that it might be possible did give the EU some leverage when it came to certain negotations, especially when it comes to handling refugees etc. However, I also question how serious it really was for a whole while now - I think most people were well aware and realized that it would never actually happen without either having a drastic change happening within Turkey or the EU substantially changing/lowering their requirements for whatever reason.

And yes, I agree. The only ones that might lose something are the Turkish people - but they made their bed by getting Erdogan to where he is now. As you sow, so you shall reap.

That was the whole point of the exercise, wasn't it, though? The EU compiled an outrageously long list of grievances that needed to be fixed in order for Turkey to be formally admitted to the admission process to the EU. If they had gone through that list and checked off every item (and let's not forget, they were on a good way to do that), they may actually have become valuable members of the EU. Certainly more valuable than Romania...

The irony in this whole business is really... getting rid of military lording over the Turkish Government was really the EU's idea. But as Turks have told me time and again, it was the Turkish military that prevented idiots like Erdogan from doing what they did. So by complying with the EU's demands, Erdogan really duped everyone and weakened the military so he can do his power grab that we're in the middle of.

I remember fondly last year... remember when that whole doup d'etat was going on in Turkey? He implemented a state of emergency and I told people on this forum that it wasn't just going to be for a month. Or three. I told them it was going to be a lot longer than that, and won't stop until his power is pretty absolute. People laughed at me. I hate being right sometimes. Especially when it's the inner cynical bastard in me being right.

[Deleted]

I remember fondly last year... remember when that whole doup d'etat was going on in Turkey? He implemented a state of emergency and I told people on this forum that it wasn't just going to be for a month. Or three. I told them it was going to be a lot longer than that, and won't stop until his power is pretty absolute. People laughed at me. I hate being right sometimes. Especially when it's the inner cynical bastard in me being right.

To be fair, knowing Erdogan it was never far-fetched that he would milk this...fortunate opportunity to continue his power grab as much as possible. At least I found it fairly foreseeable. The moment he implemented state of emergency and - by some "coincidence" - already had his long list of people he doesn't like at hand it was obvious that he would try to keep it up as long as possible and get rid of as many political opponents as he could in the process, as it granted him so much more power.
With the referendum later on - and I still baffled that he got a majority for this lunacy - he basically cemented his path to somewhat absolute power - but also the end of the possibility to join the EU. With him at the top, Turkey will only stray further and further from a nation that is on the same page as most EU-countries.

That was the whole point of the exercise, wasn't it, though? The EU compiled an outrageously long list of grievances that needed to be fixed in order for Turkey to be formally admitted to the admission process to the EU. If they had gone through that list and checked off every item (and let's not forget, they were on a good way to do that), they may actually have become valuable members of the EU. Certainly more valuable than Romania...

It was, but: Even though they were on an okay way to do that, I think they would still have faced quite a lot of opposition from several countries later on. I think Finland, for example, always was against them joining - and so was the majority of the population within most EU countries.

[Gref]

I still baffled that he got a majority for this lunacy - he basically cemented his path to somewhat absolute power - but also the end of the possibility to join the EU. With him at the top, Turkey will only stray further and further from a nation that is on the same page as most EU-countries.

People didn't give him the majority. He got the majority by adding a flash 2-3 million votes at the last second by overriding the existing election rules. I saw his face while the no was still in the lead at the end. That fear was so satisfying. Seeing all the hardcore religious places he got votes for all his life, even his birthplace saying "NO" to him. I say 2-3 million but there is more. They were boldly uploading their videos on facebook, twitter. Mass stamping empty ballots while ridiculing the "NO" voters.

I saw enough that this country is not finished. He is doing everything to keep him in power by force. Still I see a little bit hope.

[Slant]

People didn't give him the majority. He got the majority by adding a flash 2-3 million votes at the last second by overriding the existing election rules. I saw his face while the no was still in the lead at the end. That fear was so satisfying. Seeing all the hardcore religious places he got votes for all his life, even his birthplace saying "NO" to him. I say 2-3 million but there is more. They were boldly uploading their videos on facebook, twitter. Mass stamping empty ballots while ridiculing the "NO" voters.

I saw enough that this country is not finished. He is doing everything to keep him in power by force. Still I see a little bit hope.

Usually, that hope was military stepping in, taking over and telling everyone to calm the fuck down while they sort the mess and then let idiots play Government again afterwards. Or so they tell me. Doesn't work with a weak ass military like Turkey has now. No backbone whatsoever.

[Gref]

@Slant Yes, it was so. That means it is up to normal folks. Getting ready for 2019 elections and finding people to watch for the ballots where opposition is weak should be top priority. I believe CHP (main opposition party) will do more about the security of ballots. Still what makes me worry the opposition is trying to form a new party (the previous MHP members who are fed up with Erdogan and seeing their parties becoming a stepping stone for AKP as the leader of the party became a total laugh stock and Erdogan supporter).

Educated people always have different ideas for various problems. Thus the votes split. Where as Erdogan supporters are a herd of mindless religious tools. So this new party although against Erdogan and anybody that supports him, will hurt the 2nd biggest and opposition party CHP.

[Slant]

@Slant Yes, it was so. That means it is up to normal folks. Getting ready for 2019 elections and finding people to watch for the ballots where opposition is weak should be top priority. I believe CHP (main opposition party) will do more about the security of ballots. Still what makes me worry the opposition is trying to form a new party (the previous MHP members who are fed up with Erdogan and seeing their parties becoming a stepping stone for AKP as the leader of the party became a total laugh stock and Erdogan supporter).

Educated people always have different ideas for various problems. Thus the votes split. Where as Erdogan supporters are a herd of mindless religious tools. So this new party although against Erdogan and anybody that supports him, will hurt the 2nd biggest and opposition party CHP.

So, is there a way out of it for Turkey? You paint a pretty bleak picture there. I'm ignoring the EU here, but Turkey used to be a pretty chill country even with all their problems. Right now, it's turning into something bad. Can that be reversed?

[Gref]

@Slant Difficult but possible. I don't really know the details of the election for the president but if it is again %50+1 kind of vote, Erdogan will have harder time. He already had a difficult time with all the money, media and power he had at his disposal, where as opposition had nothing but volunteers.

[Masark]

You forgot "political opposition".

Didn't I cover that in my first two categories?

[Slant]

Didn't I cover that in my first two categories?

Opposition isn't just "kurds" and "secular muslims". It's political opposition. Anyone who's not in the ruling party is opposition.