Argus: Turning a no-fly advocate

[SirCowdog]

If you listen to what Blizz say about flying you'd realise that flight isn't supposed to be a tool that gets used for progression, at least not for main characters. It's a reward that lets you fly around the Broken Isles freely for exploration's sake or to progress alts. The trouble is you seem to be imagining what you want flight to be then complaining that Blizz aren't implementing it the way you want despite nothing they say suggesting they would.


Okay you seem really hung up on the phrase "meaningful reward" so I'd like to see the post you got it from as you have previous form ripping phrases from their context and misrepresenting them to make your points.



Then stop overhyping stuff? Blizz have made it clear that they don't want flying to be a major part of character progression so maybe you should listen to what they say as well as watching what they do.

Alright, let's start with a Watcher quote:

The underlying philosophy here is: explore and master the outdoor world on the ground, in order to unlock the ability to soar above it freely. This time around, since we have our design in place from the start of the expansion, we want to give players as much advance notice as possible, and allow everyone who cares deeply about unlocking flight to understand the requirements and begin progressing towards them immediately.

This is from: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...3674371?page=9

Except they didn't even follow through with that. Apparently Argus doesn't qualify as being part of the "outdoor world". I especially like the part about allowing people who care about unlocking flight understanding the requirements. LOL@that. This is where someone like you usually busts out the "Well you knew what to do for BROKEN ISLES!" as though that's really valid.

In Ornyx's recent forum post, he talks a lot about having a conversation, and meeting players half way. But then also goes on to dismiss and avoid every single concern regarding flight. He also says:

There is a point to be made for flying, and I think it's become a huge part of the game for the community, so it is an important conversation for me.

Keeping in mind that Ornyx is not just a forum mod, but the Community Manager to the entire North America forums. According to the wiki it means that he's the direct liason between the players and the devs. So when he says he thinks Flying is a "huge part of the game for the community", presumably he's passing that on to the devs. And I don't know about you, but only 5 months of marginal use for flying doesn't strike me as being a "huge part of the game".

Then there's the entire fiasco of WoD flying. I can't even find some of those threads and blue posts because they've been deleted by Blizzard. Many references and direct links to the WoW forums where there was a blue post now lead to a 404 page not found. Many of my old saved links on the subject do the same.

But it doesn't really matter what I DO find on the subject. You'll just interpret them in whatever way best suits blizzard. I think it's pretty clear we're not going to agree on any part of this discussion.

[Dhrizzle]

Alright, let's start with a Watcher quote:

The underlying philosophy here is: explore and master the outdoor world on the ground, in order to unlock the ability to soar above it freely. This time around, since we have our design in place from the start of the expansion, we want to give players as much advance notice as possible, and allow everyone who cares deeply about unlocking flight to understand the requirements and begin progressing towards them immediately.

This is from: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...3674371?page=9

Except they didn't even follow through with that. Apparently Argus doesn't qualify as being part of the "outdoor world". I especially like the part about allowing people who care about unlocking flight understanding the requirements. LOL@that. This is where someone like you usually busts out the "Well you knew what to do for BROKEN ISLES!" as though that's really valid.

Still cherry picking I see, let's see what else Watcher says in that exact same post,

Patch content will see players adventuring within new parts of the Broken Isles, and there will likely be one or two additional criteria associated with that content. At that point, players will unlock the ability to fly throughout the Broken Isles.

Quick question, do you actually just skim-read posts like this one to pick out the bits you like and are genuinely upset when you're disappointed, or do you just pick them out as part of you crusade to paint the Blizz devs as liars in the hope no-one will go and read what is actually being said?

In Ornyx's recent forum post, he talks a lot about having a conversation, and meeting players half way. But then also goes on to dismiss and avoid every single concern regarding flight. He also says:

There is a point to be made for flying, and I think it's become a huge part of the game for the community, so it is an important conversation for me.

Keeping in mind that Ornyx is not just a forum mod, but the Community Manager to the entire North America forums. According to the wiki it means that he's the direct liason between the players and the devs. So when he says he thinks Flying is a "huge part of the game for the community", presumably he's passing that on to the devs. And I don't know about you, but only 5 months of marginal use for flying doesn't strike me as being a "huge part of the game".

Here's the thing - just because Ornyx thinks that flying is a big deal for the community (by which I assume he means the small percentage of players who make up the official Blizz forum community) and tells the devs that, it doesn't mean the devs have to redesign the game based on that advice. It's highly doubtful that a post made by the community manager in the past week would have any large effect on design decisions made months or years ago.

Then there's the entire fiasco of WoD flying. I can't even find some of those threads and blue posts because they've been deleted by Blizzard. Many references and direct links to the WoW forums where there was a blue post now lead to a 404 page not found. Many of my old saved links on the subject do the same.

If you can't find a post to back it up I recommend not quoting specific phrases like "meaningful reward," especially given your habit of taking them out of context to twist what the blue poster actually means.

But it doesn't really matter what I DO find on the subject. You'll just interpret them in whatever way best suits blizzard. I think it's pretty clear we're not going to agree on any part of this discussion.

If you mean I'll interpret them based on what they're saying instead of a desire to attack them personally then yes we probably will never disagree.

[-Joker-]

Uh dazing is actually the least of my problems. Crap DPS and squishyness of a non raid geared character is.
Tank has crappy DPS too but can make up for that by pulling 10 mobs and AoEing them down.
Not advisable on a priestess. >.<

Yeah, kinda the main reason I stopped playing my rogue. I could slip past anything, but if I got caught by more than 3 or 4 in a pack, I was fucked. Now, he chills in SW opening lockboxes.

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Great, so you don't care. Why, exactly, are you in this thread then? It's obviously not because you want to understand or discuss the issue with anyone that disagrees with you.

I don't care that you don't agree. This isn't a circle jerk and I am not looking for gratification. I am looking for a little lightbulb to kick on in someone's mind that says, "I should offer my 'feedback' on the OFFICIAL forums in a constructive manner, rather than sound like a whiner on a Fan Site. Plus, if the game is that bad and makes me that mad, maybe I should vote with my wallet and unsub until they accept my feedback and change things. Or maybe I should just get that LW item that everyone is talking about and avoid dazing the way fliers avoid combat and trash mobs."

Essentially I am just hoping to see the light kick on for some of you. Sadly, the thread is still dark. Very, very dark.

[rda]

I don't care that you don't agree. ...

An example of arguing with Joker:

Joker - they can do whatever they want, bla bla bla, just accept it.

An opponent - nobody disputes that they can do whatever they want but what they are doing with flying harms the player because they are blatantly slowing him down to get more money, this is disgusting, it needs to be better.

Joker - it is better already, this is called the Pathfinder.

An opponent - dude, the Pathfinder shows exactly that they care about nothing except blatantly slowing players down to get more money, here is how: A, B, C, this is not better, this is exactly the issue.

Joker - um... so you want no Pathfinder? tough luck, they can do whatever they want, just accept it.

...completing the circle.

Not sure what it is there to debate. We know that they can do whatever they want, mate, thank you. You got anything else? No? Then stop talking, we heard your profound thought ten times already.

[-Joker-]

An example of arguing with Joker:

Joker - Go offer them Feedback on the official site, and vote with your wallet until they make changes more to your liking.

An opponent - So if I don't like it unsub? I'd rather sit here an offer feedback even though this is not the official site and Blizz is not really known for caving when it comes to changing a design plan. I can still sit here and protest.

Joker - It's only feedback if it happens on the official feedback channel through BNet. Until then you are just clouding up a FAN SITE with negative and whiny rhetoric.

An opponent - dude, the Pathfinder sucks ass. No flying sucks ass. We should get to fly EVERYWHERE and just pay the 5k gold like we used to.

Joker - So you are more interested in flight, which bypasses the combat mechanic of the game than you are in the game itself? Yep, whining confirmed.

...completing the circle.

Not sure what it is there to debate. We know that you want flight so you can do whatever you want, mate, thank you. You got anything else? No? Then stop talking, we heard your whining about flight for 3 years already.

Fixed it so it made more sense.

[rda]

Fixed it so it made more sense.

Well, the difference between your edit of my post and the original of my post is that the latter actually happened and the former is just something you concocted because you wanted to look good in a discussion.

[-Joker-]

Well, the difference between your edit of my post and the original of my post is that the latter actually happened and the former is just something you concocted because you wanted to look good in a discussion.

Funny, I was going to say the same of your version. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree and go our separate ways.

[purebalance]

"Bads"? What do you mean with that?
It's not that the zone is hard it's just not fun without flying.

But thats fine, you never have to use flying unless you wnat to. Not in any zones. Ground mounts are always there for the people that prefer them.

Yupp let's use the same old arguments of subjective nonsense now when I'm calling out people who legitimately were playing badly talking about getting dazed when there's 0 excuse for anyone to get dazed. When you start saying unfun and not fun in terms of flying you lost the argument because flying is not about fun, it's about being lazy.

[Aggrophobic]

Yupp let's use the same old arguments of subjective nonsense now when I'm calling out people who legitimately were playing badly talking about getting dazed when there's 0 excuse for anyone to get dazed. When you start saying unfun and not fun in terms of flying you lost the argument because flying is not about fun, it's about being lazy.

It is about fun and nothing else.
Use your ground mount if you want but don't take away a feature for others that they really love.

[rhorle]

Then there's the entire fiasco of WoD flying. I can't even find some of those threads and blue posts because they've been deleted by Blizzard. Many references and direct links to the WoW forums where there was a blue post now lead to a 404 page not found. Many of my old saved links on the subject do the same.

Excuses. MMO-Champion has at least 1,000 pages of blue posts dating back to 2007. Blizzard is not in the habit of deleting blue posts that contain discussion and even if they did a place like mmo-champion would archive it.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...m-maintenance/ when clicking on source doesn't take you to a post because yet you can still read it just fine. And find topics with in it. But of course instead of utilizing tools at your disposal to prove your point you take the low road of insulting Blizzard. You even use another excuse of saying it doesn't matter what you find because the person will interpret whatever way best suits Blizzard.

Is this another case of you acting like a troll/idiot because you don't think the person worded their post well enough? Or could it be that you will only accept your way and instead are projecting onto others and trying to use excuses to prove what you really can't? If something actually says what you claim it does then there is no room for interpretation. If it can be interpreted then it clearly doesn't say what you are claiming it does.

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It is about fun and nothing else.
Use your ground mount if you want but don't take away a feature for others that they really love.

It wasn't taken away from Argus though. There has always been zones that did not allow flying. These zones were primarily post launch questing zones. Argus is one of those.

[-Joker-]

Excuses. MMO-Champion has at least 1,000 pages of blue posts dating back to 2007. Blizzard is not in the habit of deleting blue posts that contain discussion and even if they did a place like mmo-champion would archive it.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...m-maintenance/ when clicking on source doesn't take you to a post because yet you can still read it just fine. And find topics with in it. But of course instead of utilizing tools at your disposal to prove your point you take the low road of insulting Blizzard. You even use another excuse of saying it doesn't matter what you find because the person will interpret whatever way best suits Blizzard.

Is this another case of you acting like a troll/idiot because you don't think the person worded their post well enough? Or could it be that you will only accept your way and instead are projecting onto others and trying to use excuses to prove what you really can't? If something actually says what you claim it does then there is no room for interpretation. If it can be interpreted then it clearly doesn't say what you are claiming it does.

Wish I could up vote this post.

[Aggrophobic]

Excuses. MMO-Champion has at least 1,000 pages of blue posts dating back to 2007. Blizzard is not in the habit of deleting blue posts that contain discussion and even if they did a place like mmo-champion would archive it.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...m-maintenance/ when clicking on source doesn't take you to a post because yet you can still read it just fine. And find topics with in it. But of course instead of utilizing tools at your disposal to prove your point you take the low road of insulting Blizzard. You even use another excuse of saying it doesn't matter what you find because the person will interpret whatever way best suits Blizzard.

Is this another case of you acting like a troll/idiot because you don't think the person worded their post well enough? Or could it be that you will only accept your way and instead are projecting onto others and trying to use excuses to prove what you really can't? If something actually says what you claim it does then there is no room for interpretation. If it can be interpreted then it clearly doesn't say what you are claiming it does.

- - - Updated - - -



It wasn't taken away from Argus though. There has always been zones that did not allow flying. These zones were primarily post launch questing zones. Argus is one of those.

We have been without flying for most of Legion though. It was given back for a short while and then taken away again.
Other zones that did not have flying were short, small zones that you were done with in a few weeks.

You'll be forced to stay on Argus for a year or more.

The zones there are not fun without flying. The fact that we didn't have flying in a zone or two befor changes nothing.
I mean, we didn't have pathfinder befor and the game did great. Does that mean you think that should be removed as well?

You argument is flawed.

[rhorle]

The zones there are not fun without flying. The fact that we didn't have flying in a zone or two befor changes nothing.
I mean, we didn't have pathfinder befor and the game did great. Does that mean you think that should be removed as well? You argument is flawed.

It isn't flawed. The game has restricted flying in end-game zones added since TBC when flying was first added. It changes everything about the argument you were making in the post I quoted because Blizzard hasn't taken away a feature in this specific area of game play. Nothing says that we will be forced to say on Argus for a year or more. Stop inserting random crap into your argument just because it was flimsy as a wet noodle to begin with.

Pathfinder is the ideal solution to making flight be a reward for X since gold is a poor metric for such.

[kamuimac]

Then stop overhyping stuff? Blizz have made it clear that they don't want flying to be a major part of character progression so maybe you should listen to what they say as well as watching what they do.

so they should have balls and tell - you wont get flying ever - and live with all consequences of it including loosing milions of players and geting fired for making retarded desicsions leading to loosing those milions of players

they are just pussies who pretend and lie instead act like they should

[SirCowdog]

Excuses. MMO-Champion has at least 1,000 pages of blue posts dating back to 2007. Blizzard is not in the habit of deleting blue posts that contain discussion and even if they did a place like mmo-champion would archive it.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...m-maintenance/ when clicking on source doesn't take you to a post because yet you can still read it just fine. And find topics with in it. But of course instead of utilizing tools at your disposal to prove your point you take the low road of insulting Blizzard.

I only said I couldn't find things after linking some direct blue posts. But apparently that's not enough and people like you and Dhrizzle won't accept anything other than a direct quote from Hazzicostas saying "I am personally doing everything in my power to make flying ass". And probably even then you guys would find a way to rationalize it.

And I said we're obviously not going to agree because it's a simple statement of fact. It's not me trolling, or evading. It's just recognizing that there's no more value to be had from the discussion. I'll extend the same thing to you, since we're descending into talking about us personally instead of what Blizzard is saying or doing.

[rhorle]

I only said I couldn't find things after linking some direct blue posts. But apparently that's not enough and people like you and Dhrizzle won't accept anything other than a direct quote from Hazzicostas saying "I am personally doing everything in my power to make flying ass". And probably even then you guys would find a way to rationalize it.

So you can't prove your argument and rage that we wouldn't accept it anyways. We are not descending into anything. You are the one who keeps focusing it on the posters instead of the discussion at hand. When you keep using phrases like "You'll find a way to rationalize it" "You won't accept anything less then them saying they are making flying ass".

You were making an argument that Blizzard censors things that prove your argument. I pointed out how they don't and that even if they did it is still archived on a few different sites. Don't blame others when you can't back up your own shit and your excuse falls flat.

[Dhrizzle]

I only said I couldn't find things after linking some direct blue posts. But apparently that's not enough and people like you and Dhrizzle won't accept anything other than a direct quote from Hazzicostas saying "I am personally doing everything in my power to make flying ass". And probably even then you guys would find a way to rationalize it.

Okay let's work around your hyperbole (again) and go back to your original "quote" about flight being intended to be a "meaningful reward." If you can find a blue post that talks about them wanting flight in Legion to be a "significant reward" then I'll quite happily say that Blizz failed in that regard. I wouldn't care very much but I'll definitely agree it's a case where what they were saying doesn't match up to what they did. The thing is with the way you selectively quote parts of post to strip them of context and twist the meaning. For all I know the phrase "significant reward" could have been followed by "for people who want to spend a few months aimlessly flying around before we introduce a new, ground-only

And I said we're obviously not going to agree because it's a simple statement of fact. It's not me trolling, or evading. It's just recognizing that there's no more value to be had from the discussion. I'll extend the same thing to you, since we're descending into talking about us personally instead of what Blizzard is saying or doing.

Well I guess we'll see each other in the next thread when I'll probably start explaining (again) the difference between objective facts and subjective opinions.

[Aggrophobic]

It isn't flawed. The game has restricted flying in end-game zones added since TBC when flying was first added. It changes everything about the argument you were making in the post I quoted because Blizzard hasn't taken away a feature in this specific area of game play. Nothing says that we will be forced to say on Argus for a year or more. Stop inserting random crap into your argument just because it was flimsy as a wet noodle to begin with.

Pathfinder is the ideal solution to making flight be a reward for X since gold is a poor metric for such.

Wrath and WoD did not have these restrictions though.

But you're right, gold is not the best. Should just let us keep it when we unlock it at 60.

[rda]

Okay let's work around your hyperbole (again) and go back to your original "quote" about flight being intended to be a "meaningful reward." If you can find a blue post that talks about them wanting flight in Legion to be a "significant reward" then I'll quite happily say that Blizz failed in that regard.

There were multiple statements along these lines, including a very direct one from Lore:

"We want flight to be a reward, not something you spend some gold on once you hit max level."

https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/635897389719556096

Is that enough or will you object to Lore not mentioning Legion specifically or Lore being Lore instead of Ion or whoever?

[Dhrizzle]

There were multiple statements along these lines, including a very direct one from Lore:

"We want flight to be a reward, not something you spend some gold on once you hit max level."

https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/635897389719556096

Is that enough or will you object to Lore not mentioning Legion specifically or Lore being Lore instead of Ion or whoever?

Yes, and flight is a reward - you get it as a reward for completing the achievement. SirCowdog is claiming Blizz called it a meaningful reward (he used the term a few times including a direct quote with no source,) apparently meaning it would have a significant impact on open world progression. I agree that flight isn't a "meaningful reward" in that way but I would like to see what context that quote came from (or if it even exists.)